Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 kronk wrote:
Plastic Sisters.

New Plastic CSM infantry.

New Plastic Guard kits.

GW needs to make a lot of new gak! Get busy!

I would say you are right. These three are in the most need. Ironically both guards and Chaos Marines are pretty popular so it's odd they don't have new models yet. As for Guards, I would hope for new Cadians and Plastic Vostroyan. I would let the Catashan fade. The Cadians represent well your classic futuristic soldier while the Vostroyans really feel like they belong to the steampunk gothic universe of 40K. Catashan are basically the Vietnam version of the Cadian. They can stay as is. Apologies to all fans of Catashan. I would sacrifice your dudes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Your first point (how their equipment is mass produced) is contradicted by the second point (which points out that different regiments come by their weapons differently), which you might have seen if you had not taken my quote out of context.

I didn't "take your quote out of context". The Lasgun that Vostroyans use is, in terms of its power and the like for game purposes, no different than a Cadian's mass-produced Kantrael short-pattern Lasgun.

There was also a qualifier to indicate that exceptions did exist--but a Lasgun is a Lasgun for the purposes of 40k.

True Strakken and Harker have their own rules, but that's for two squads at most and I have to actually take them.

It also comes down to a thematic element. Catachans are always described as veteran troopers--and the Veteran Squads can take two elements that are rejigged from Catachan rules. The Demo Squad and Forward Sentries both had their origins in the Catachan setups.

I can play Blood Angels that have a different set of special rules from Ultramarines without having to field Dante or Mephiston (and this has been true across editions, not just with the advent of Chapter Tactics). And each of the Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists chapters all have more characters than Vostroyans, Tallarns, and Praetorians (I forget if Yarrick was from the Steel Legion) combined, let alone counting relics, special equipment, special rules and such. It's even worse that Valhallans and Tallarns had characters, even ones with models, but got squatted anyways for some reason. Iron Hands, while lacking characters, has a whole supplement for them and a whole suite of Relics.

And Tallarn, Vostroyans, and Valhallans had nothing that made them "stand out" beyond their garb and background stuff relating to their tactics for those specific characters. That was really all there was.

Yarrick's a Commissar, so doesn't really count for anyone.

And I still count the Savlar Chem Dogs as a proper regiment as they have far more character than most others (they were mentioned very frequently in fluff) and technically even had rules at one point (and people complain about the BTs losing rules).

Where in the world have Savlar Chem-Dogs been "mentioned very frequently in fluff"? The only mentions I've been able to find were from Chapter Approved 2003, IA1, and 3rd edition IG Codex(doctrines).

Are they in Only War a lot? Because that's really the only Guard stuff I don't have fluffwise.

Meanwhile, again, Space Marines get their powers and equipment depending on what kind of spandex they're wearing outside of their armor.

Let's be real for a second here. I'm going to guess you dislike this system with Space Marines having different options because you feel it somehow detracts from the Guard, right?

Yeah. I'm with you on that. But until large numbers of players actually start settling in and being willing to commit to themed forces rather than "what can I run my Marines as this week...", we won't see any real change.

The Cadian Detachment in Mont'ka was a good effort to bring some flavor back to Guard. It really was. But being that it was a themed Detachment rather than a Codex Update, it could have been better.

Actually I feel like Marines detract from everything, since again apparently a new coat of paint gives Marines a whole new wardrobe of wargear, but the three hive fleets apparently don't have any unique variations among them. One of the reason I'm not that apprehensive about 30k is that it pretty much comes out and say "Look guys, we're Warhammer: Space Marines" while 40k is still coming to terms with that realization. And Tallarans, Vostroyans and such all do have different tactics and skills, but again the focus on Space Marines means that they're all lumped into the "generic" guard and the rules don't represent this (like, Vostroyans should have master-crafted weapons, Catachans should all have Move Through Cover, and Mordians should have Fearless or at least Stubborn and high leadership for their Iron will), although the same could be said of Biel Tan (who are suppose to use a ton of Aspect Warriors and be able to field a Court of Young Kings) and the various Ork Clans. Unlike the other races (save for the Eldar), the Doctrines rule means that these regiments did technically have rules at one point, but got streamlined into being "not-cadians" (although ironically this happened to the Cadians too, since they had their own separate rules in Eye of Terror. It's sorta like they took all of it, tossed it in a blender then gave us Astra-Miliputium).

Tau I'm slightly fine with because their nature precludes a lot of deviation (the Ethereal's mind-control perfume and whatnot), and the only true renegade does indeed have his own Codex...to a degree (ok so the Farsight Enclaves isn't a full codex, but close enough).

Also on the subject of the Chem Dogs, they were actually first mentioned in Codex: Armageddon, complete with a suggested paint scheme. However their contributions to that war was minimal, but they were apparently popular enough to get included again in the "3.5" dex. After that they were forgotten like the Mordians and Praetorians.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Actually I feel like Marines detract from everything, since again apparently a new coat of paint gives Marines a whole new wardrobe of wargear, but the three hive fleets apparently don't have any unique variations among them.

Deathleaper, Swarmlord, and Old One Eye would like a word.

With Tyranids, these "one-offs" seem to be reabsorbed and then recreated when needed. That's kind of a bad example.

One of the reason I'm not that apprehensive about 30k is that it pretty much comes out and say "Look guys, we're Warhammer: Space Marines" while 40k is still coming to terms with that realization. And Tallarans, Vostroyans and such all do have different tactics and skills, but again the focus on Space Marines means that they're all lumped into the "generic" guard and the rules don't represent this (like, Vostroyans should have master-crafted weapons, Catachans should all have Move Through Cover, and Mordians should have Fearless or at least Stubborn and high leadership for their Iron will)

Yeah, no.

Tallarn Desert Raiders(not "Tallarans") don't really have unique skills that are applicable on the tabletop, unless you play some funky rules for deserts. Their tactics were hit and run strikes as well, again something not really well suited to the tabletop. Their rules previously were really just Al'Rahem granting Outflank to his Platoon and the "Like the Wind!" Order(which is now a general Order called "Forwards, for the Emperor!") in the post-Doctrines book.

Additionally, Vostroyans had a set of doctrines during the Medusa V campaign. Those doctrines?


Just for giggles as well:
Mordians


Tallarn


Catachan

Many of the things that were once considered to be "doctrine worthy" aren't anymore or are tied to Warlord Traits now--and even in the Doctrines book? Chekov and Al'Rahem had no rules! The models got shown off, but the book only included Creed/Kell, Yarrick, Schaeffer's Last Chancers, and Gaunt.

although the same could be said of Biel Tan (who are suppose to use a ton of Aspect Warriors and be able to field a Court of Young Kings)

Biel-Tan can most definitely be represented now with their Aspect Host formations and the Court of Young Kings isn't hard to represent either.

and the various Ork Clans. Unlike the other races (save for the Eldar), the Doctrines rule means that these regiments did technically have rules at one point, but got streamlined into being "not-cadians" (although ironically this happened to the Cadians too, since they had their own separate rules in Eye of Terror. It's sorta like they took all of it, tossed it in a blender then gave us Astra-Miliputium).

As much as I love the Cadians, their "own separate rules in Eye of Terror" were precursors to the Doctrines Codex. EoT was first and used the pre-Doctrines Codex coupled with the rules that would later be in the Doctrines book.

I would LOVE for Cadians to get their own book, and if I knew someone working on it? I would be bombarding them as often as possible with ideas.

Additionally the Ork Klans did have rules via Chapter Approved and WD. The 2004 CA book had rules for Feral Orks to use an example.

Tau I'm slightly fine with because their nature precludes a lot of deviation (the Ethereal's mind-control perfume and whatnot), and the only true renegade does indeed have his own Codex...to a degree (ok so the Farsight Enclaves isn't a full codex, but close enough).

Farsight Enclaves is gone now. No Longer Available.
He has an alternate Detachment now.

Also on the subject of the Chem Dogs, they were actually first mentioned in Codex: Armageddon, complete with a suggested paint scheme. However their contributions to that war was minimal, but they were apparently popular enough to get included again in the "3.5" dex. After that they were forgotten like the Mordians and Praetorians.

Their popularity wasn't why. They were a staffer's army.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Actually I feel like Marines detract from everything, since again apparently a new coat of paint gives Marines a whole new wardrobe of wargear, but the three hive fleets apparently don't have any unique variations among them.

Deathleaper, Swarmlord, and Old One Eye would like a word.

With Tyranids, these "one-offs" seem to be reabsorbed and then recreated when needed. That's kind of a bad example.

One of the reason I'm not that apprehensive about 30k is that it pretty much comes out and say "Look guys, we're Warhammer: Space Marines" while 40k is still coming to terms with that realization. And Tallarans, Vostroyans and such all do have different tactics and skills, but again the focus on Space Marines means that they're all lumped into the "generic" guard and the rules don't represent this (like, Vostroyans should have master-crafted weapons, Catachans should all have Move Through Cover, and Mordians should have Fearless or at least Stubborn and high leadership for their Iron will)

Yeah, no.

Tallarn Desert Raiders(not "Tallarans") don't really have unique skills that are applicable on the tabletop, unless you play some funky rules for deserts. Their tactics were hit and run strikes as well, again something not really well suited to the tabletop. Their rules previously were really just Al'Rahem granting Outflank to his Platoon and the "Like the Wind!" Order(which is now a general Order called "Forwards, for the Emperor!") in the post-Doctrines book.

Additionally, Vostroyans had a set of doctrines during the Medusa V campaign. Those doctrines?

Spoiler:

-Sharpshooters
-Carapace Armor
-Mechanised
-Veterans
-Special Weapon Squads

Just for giggles as well:
Mordians

Spoiler:

-Sanctioned Psykers
-Ratling Squads
-Heavy Weapon Platoons
-Sharpshooters
-Close Order Drill
-Die-Hards

Tallarn

Spoiler:

-Priests
-Hardened Fighters
-Rough Rider Squadrons
-Light Infantry
-Sharpshooters

Catachan

Spoiler:

-Veterans
-Jungle Fighters
-Hardened Fighters
-Special Weapon Squads
-Ogryn Squads

Many of the things that were once considered to be "doctrine worthy" aren't anymore or are tied to Warlord Traits now--and even in the Doctrines book? Chekov and Al'Rahem had no rules! The models got shown off, but the book only included Creed/Kell, Yarrick, Schaeffer's Last Chancers, and Gaunt.

although the same could be said of Biel Tan (who are suppose to use a ton of Aspect Warriors and be able to field a Court of Young Kings)

Biel-Tan can most definitely be represented now with their Aspect Host formations and the Court of Young Kings isn't hard to represent either.

and the various Ork Clans. Unlike the other races (save for the Eldar), the Doctrines rule means that these regiments did technically have rules at one point, but got streamlined into being "not-cadians" (although ironically this happened to the Cadians too, since they had their own separate rules in Eye of Terror. It's sorta like they took all of it, tossed it in a blender then gave us Astra-Miliputium).

As much as I love the Cadians, their "own separate rules in Eye of Terror" were precursors to the Doctrines Codex. EoT was first and used the pre-Doctrines Codex coupled with the rules that would later be in the Doctrines book.

I would LOVE for Cadians to get their own book, and if I knew someone working on it? I would be bombarding them as often as possible with ideas.

Additionally the Ork Klans did have rules via Chapter Approved and WD. The 2004 CA book had rules for Feral Orks to use an example.

Tau I'm slightly fine with because their nature precludes a lot of deviation (the Ethereal's mind-control perfume and whatnot), and the only true renegade does indeed have his own Codex...to a degree (ok so the Farsight Enclaves isn't a full codex, but close enough).

Farsight Enclaves is gone now. No Longer Available.
He has an alternate Detachment now.

Also on the subject of the Chem Dogs, they were actually first mentioned in Codex: Armageddon, complete with a suggested paint scheme. However their contributions to that war was minimal, but they were apparently popular enough to get included again in the "3.5" dex. After that they were forgotten like the Mordians and Praetorians.

Their popularity wasn't why. They were a staffer's army.

The Tallarn Desert Raiders were based on the LRDG of the north Africa campaign..

Which itself is a single incarnation of Long Range penetration Long Range Penetration is best exemplified by Merrill's marauders and the Chindits both of whom operated in the areas of Burma and Indochina.

Another, potentially more well known, version of long range penetration can be seen in the lrrps of Vietnam.

Basically these guys use little to no vehicles and operate behind enemy lines in order to disrupt enemy supply chains, or act as a blocking force against retreating enemy forces. Such a fighting style relies on stealth and the expertise of the individual troops on the ground. Heavy support is primarily provided by air support or long range artillery.

The detachment in Mont'Ka is actually called "Farsight Enclaves", which is why I didn't consider it a Codex or even a Codex supplement, since unless you count the whole of Mont'Ka, there's barely anything there.

And most of the examples you've cited are from past editions ago, coincidentally removed during when Space Marines started getting their own standalone codexes (which the Black Templars started) while the others were being streamlined and simplified. Chapter Approved is the biggest example.

Also just because I want them to have some distinction doesn't mean the distinction need to be huge. Al'Rahem's ability was also a "post doctrine" ability, but if that were conferred on all Tallarans, it would at least make a Tallaran army feel different from a generic "McGuard" army and would accurately represent a "Hit and run" army since outflank would be a decent representation of their speed.

As for the tyranids, the Swarmlord isn't a unique mutation of any one hive fleet, but one for the tyranid race as a whole. Deathleaper has no origin and Old One Eye has been implied to be re-absorbed and cloned. Hive fleet Behemoth doesn't have it's "Sanguinary Guard" to other Hive fleet's "Honor Guards" anymore than Biel tan as an "Exarch Council/Court of Young Kings" to the normal Seer Council (although the Seer Council is somewhat of a reverse of this, as it use to be exclusive to Ulthwe).

As for the Chem Dogs, I'm pretty much done arguing against you about them since it's gonna end up exactly like the Trygon argument we had 5 years ago (where both of us just ended up with a stern talking to from the mods and no one really ever backed down). For anyone that actually cares to learn about them, look beyond Lexicanium for references.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

The Tallarn Desert Raiders were based on the LRDG of the north Africa campaign..

Which itself is a single incarnation of Long Range penetration Long Range Penetration is best exemplified by Merrill's marauders and the Chindits both of whom operated in the areas of Burma and Indochina.

Another, potentially more well known, version of long range penetration can be seen in the lrrps of Vietnam.

Basically these guys use little to no vehicles and operate behind enemy lines in order to disrupt enemy supply chains, or act as a blocking force against retreating enemy forces. Such a fighting style relies on stealth and the expertise of the individual troops on the ground. Heavy support is primarily provided by air support or long range artillery.

The LRDG used TONS of vehicles actually. They had specialized Jeeps that the Index Astartes article for the Tallarn tried to emulate.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

The Tallarn Desert Raiders were based on the LRDG of the north Africa campaign..

Which itself is a single incarnation of Long Range penetration Long Range Penetration is best exemplified by Merrill's marauders and the Chindits both of whom operated in the areas of Burma and Indochina.

Another, potentially more well known, version of long range penetration can be seen in the lrrps of Vietnam.

Basically these guys use little to no vehicles and operate behind enemy lines in order to disrupt enemy supply chains, or act as a blocking force against retreating enemy forces. Such a fighting style relies on stealth and the expertise of the individual troops on the ground. Heavy support is primarily provided by air support or long range artillery.

The LRDG used TONS of vehicles actually. They had specialized Jeeps that the Index Astartes article for the Tallarn tried to emulate.

LRDG was a special incarnation of LRPGs, in that they actually operated in an area where the geography did not hinder vehicles and thus make them more of a burden on logistics. Not to mention the nature of the open landscape made it nearly impossible to maneuver unseen due to the lack of dense vegetation. It is only logical that the buggies were used in those circumstances, and mules were used in the case of the Chindits. However in both cases, each were equipped to quickly assault an unsuspecting enemy, and then to retreat.

What I am saying is that primarily speaking, LRPGs lacked the means for traditional mechanized locomotion, and instead foot slogged it, or were deployed via the air. (Basically it depends on the landscape)

 kronk wrote:
Plastic Sisters.

New Plastic CSM infantry.

New Plastic Guard kits.

GW needs to make a lot of new gak! Get busy!

A man can dream! I would spend a crazy amount of money...