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Hey Dakka, this is probably a question that's been asked a lot but...

Does anyone know if the different guard armies are being redone? I personally love the Vostroyan models - something very 40k about them. I love the metal models, but it doesn't seem like I can get a hold of any heavy weapons teams (besides the 1 heavy bolter model in the squad kit and the 1 las cannon model). And there are no platoon command squad box sets or anything like that.

It'd be pretty sweet if they rereleased them and the other guard army types...

Every time guard are rumoured to have an update people begin clamouring about the hope that they will redo the regiments. It doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon though.

Hope you like playing Cadians.

*coughvictoriaminiaturescough*



I wish they would redo guard properly... along with most of the other non-SM factions to be honest!

 SilverMK2 wrote:
*coughvictoriaminiaturescough*



I wish they would redo guard properly... along with most of the other non-SM factions to be honest!

Haha true story. So many space marine chapters with their own unique box sets and stuff, while most of the other factions are being left behind a little. Especially poor chaos. How GW don't understand the amount of money I'd spend if they redid guard haha

 SilverMK2 wrote:
*coughvictoriaminiaturescough*



I wish they would redo guard properly... along with most of the other non-SM factions to be honest!

Aye, it would make a well needed breather between 'Mary-Sue tactical set' and 'Red Mary-Sue tactical set'!

Sadly it looks like we are stuck with Cadians and Catachans for now unless we use third party miniatures.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
*coughvictoriaminiaturescough*



I wish they would redo guard properly... along with most of the other non-SM factions to be honest!

Aye, it would make a well needed breather between 'Mary-Sue tactical set' and 'Red Mary-Sue tactical set'!

Sadly it looks like we are stuck with Cadians and Catachans for now unless we use third party miniatures.

But we just needed a special kit for Blood Angels that let them have even moar bling! Would you want the sons of sanguinius to be using the basic tactical squad like some peasant second founding chapter or the Imperial fists? Perish the thought!

You're in the Guard now, son! You don't get what you want!

This is one of those moments when I feel like that for all the diversity and character within each individual Guard Regiment, they still have less overall variety than the various flavours of power armor.

Also the Vostroyan models are some of the most badass and beautiful models GW has ever released. Unfortunately the reason you don't see more of those armies is because you need like 5 times the amount of models as a SM army, while paying SM prices for the models :/ Probably the only army more expensive than SoBs at this rate.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This is one of those moments when I feel like that for all the diversity and character within each individual Guard Regiment, they still have less overall variety than the various flavours of power armor.

They certainly started to have flavour when GW added doctrines for IG a few codexes ago before stripping it out again. Probably to make room for another colour of marine or something

God I miss the Doctrines, as well as Chapter Traits (not the stupid cookie-cutter Chapter Tactics bullcrap we have now). Those made the armies feel like your own.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

I wish they would redo guard properly... along with most of the other non-SM factions to be honest!

"Most of the other non-SM factions" have already been redone.
Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tau, and (most) Daemons have some of the nicest looking plastic Troop kits in the game.

That leaves Orks, Chaos Marines, Tyranids, and Necrons with some of the most dated looking Troop kits.

Guard are in a weird situation as the Cadian models are pretty nice still, but the molds definitely have not done well with age. There's a hell of a lot of excess and the lack of options in the kit is downright silly.

The alternate regiments, such as the Vostroyans, are in the same boat as the Sisters of Battle: they're not going to get any love until they sell off all of the metals.

Yeah, I wish guard had as much variety as they used to... It's odd - being the only true human faction in the game (excluding super humans and the inquisition and the like) you'd expect them to have the most variety out of any army.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

But we just needed a special kit for Blood Angels that let them have even moar bling! Would you want the sons of sanguinius to be using the basic tactical squad like some peasant second founding chapter or the Imperial fists? Perish the thought!

Pretty sure Blood Angels have different options than standard Codex Marines. I know of Inferno Pistols off the top of my head.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

But we just needed a special kit for Blood Angels that let them have even moar bling! Would you want the sons of sanguinius to be using the basic tactical squad like some peasant second founding chapter or the Imperial fists? Perish the thought!

Pretty sure Blood Angels have different options than standard Codex Marines. I know of Inferno Pistols off the top of my head.

And heavy flamers and hand flamers

Tiberius501 wrote:
Yeah, I wish guard had as much variety as they used to... It's odd - being the only true human faction in the game (excluding super humans and the inquisition and the like) you'd expect them to have the most variety out of any army.

Simply put, the issue comes down to what that variety actually entails. GW shops are already pretty much packed with stuff on their shelves, and adding another full Guard range(Command Squad, Troop Box, Heavy Weapons box) would be at minimum another three boxed sets they would have to find room for it.

If we're going to see "alternate" Regiments? I'm thinking we're going to see them as specific unit options. Like you could take a unit of Catachan Jungle Fighters or a unit of Vostroyan Firstborn or Attilan Rough Riders.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

I wish they would redo guard properly... along with most of the other non-SM factions to be honest!

"Most of the other non-SM factions" have already been redone.
Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tau, and (most) Daemons have some of the nicest looking plastic Troop kits in the game.

That leaves Orks, Chaos Marines, Tyranids, and Necrons with some of the most dated looking Troop kits.

Come on Kan, I know you can count

3 non-SM factions with some level of re-doing, vs the 4 you mention, plus a proper redo of IG, and of course SoB bringing the total up to 6 non-SM factions that could do with some love.

To be honest I have lost track of how many colours of Space Marine there are now but I know that Generic Marines was redone not too long ago, along with BA (invalidating two of the three SM codexes I happen to own in the process having purchased them within about 12 months of the new codex dropping ) - Hell, my DA codex may well be out of date too by now!

Then of course there are Vikings in Space! (Marines) who were also redone recently... soooo... 4 of the 5/6 SM factions at least? All of which are pretty much interchangable with a bit of counts as anyway... and all of which should be in one book just like Chaos and IG should

Plastic Sisters.

New Plastic CSM infantry.

New Plastic Guard kits.

GW needs to make a lot of new gak! Get busy!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Guard are in a weird situation as the Cadian models are pretty nice still, but the molds definitely have not done well with age. There's a hell of a lot of excess and the lack of options in the kit is downright silly.

I don't think the goofy proportions of the Cadian models have stood the test of time because since then so many other models have been released (many by FW even) that when compared to the plastic Cadians just make them look like goofy bobble heads.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

I wish they would redo guard properly... along with most of the other non-SM factions to be honest!

"Most of the other non-SM factions" have already been redone.
Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tau, and (most) Daemons have some of the nicest looking plastic Troop kits in the game.

That leaves Orks, Chaos Marines, Tyranids, and Necrons with some of the most dated looking Troop kits.

Come on Kan, I know you can count

CLEARLY you don't know me that well, Silver. Math is my kryptonite.

3 non-SM factions with some level of re-doing, vs the 4 you mention, plus a proper redo of IG, and of course SoB bringing the total up to 6 non-SM factions that could do with some love.

Dark Eldar was absolutely not "some level of re-doing". That was an entire range overhaul. Eldar just saw their oldest basic kit(the Jetbike Guardians) redone in plastic, with plastic characters to boot.

And like I said about Guard and Sisters; the Cadians are nice but have not done well with age. They show their age with lack of weapon options and moldlines in funky places. Alternate Regiments aren't happening anytime soon, not in the way that people want at least.

SOB aren't happening unless they take a biiiiiiiig leap like they did with Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus.

To be honest I have lost track of how many colours of Space Marine there are now but I know that Generic Marines was redone not too long ago, along with BA (invalidating two of the three SM codexes I happen to own in the process having purchased them within about 12 months of the new codex dropping ) - Hell, my DA codex may well be out of date too by now!

If it's the Dark Angels book with a hooded marine on the front with a crackling power sword then you're good.
Generic Marines was a "redo" in the same vein as DA; they added Formations and a Decurion.

Then of course there are Vikings in Space! (Marines) who were also redone recently... soooo... 4 of the 5/6 SM factions at least?

The "redo" for Space Wolves was actually them adding new models into the range and repackaging stuff. Long Fangs and Skyclaws were just the Space Wolves Pack sprue packaged with the old Assault and Devastator kits that they no longer sell.

All of which are pretty much interchangable with a bit of counts as anyway... and all of which should be in one book just like Chaos and IG should

We've been over this dozens of times so I'm not going to rehash it in huge detail.

No, they're not all "interchangeable with a bit of counts as"--not anymore at least. Space Wolves are about to be further differentiated from the Codex Marines in fact.
And no, they shouldn't "all be in one book" by any stretch of the imagination. First there's a lot of extraneous crap that would end up being paid for. Second there's a lot of stuff that just isn't applicable in all situations.

And Guard ARE in one book. Militarum Tempestus is its own standalone book. It's a crummy book certainly, but it is its own standalone book.
Chaos is a weird one, as Khorne Daemonkin was an unexpected addition but seems to have been relatively well-received(minus the usual whining from Chaos players). Daemons as their own book also goes to the same bit as "all Loyalists in one book"--not everyone wants to use everything in there.

So you end up with Chaos having two supplement books(Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion) that could have been put into the Codex instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Guard are in a weird situation as the Cadian models are pretty nice still, but the molds definitely have not done well with age. There's a hell of a lot of excess and the lack of options in the kit is downright silly.

I don't think the goofy proportions of the Cadian models have stood the test of time because since then so many other models have been released (many by FW even) that when compared to the plastic Cadians just make them look like goofy bobble heads.

I'm not saying that the Cadians are perfect, mind you.

Just that they're "pretty nice".

Plus I do not want to replace 150+ with better looking versions. No way in hell do I want to do that.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

But we just needed a special kit for Blood Angels that let them have even moar bling! Would you want the sons of sanguinius to be using the basic tactical squad like some peasant second founding chapter or the Imperial fists? Perish the thought!

Pretty sure Blood Angels have different options than standard Codex Marines. I know of Inferno Pistols off the top of my head.

Did a few wargear differences warrant a entire new kit when the Blood Angels had a perfectly good and relatively new Tactical squad kit? Hell, Guard players only have like two weargear options in their troop box if you don't count voxes/pistol+ccw.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

But we just needed a special kit for Blood Angels that let them have even moar bling! Would you want the sons of sanguinius to be using the basic tactical squad like some peasant second founding chapter or the Imperial fists? Perish the thought!

Pretty sure Blood Angels have different options than standard Codex Marines. I know of Inferno Pistols off the top of my head.

Did a few wargear differences warrant a entire new kit when the Blood Angels had a perfectly good and relatively new Tactical squad kit? Hell, Guard players only have like two weargear options in their troop box if you don't count voxes/pistol+ccw.

That WAS the new Tactical Squad kit that they got. Previous to that, they just used the basic Tactical Squad kit and you had to convert up or source the other weapons from bits.

Additionally, I did say that the Guard don't really have much in the way of in box options. The CCS boxes fixed that issue though.

I would disregard the BA kit entirely in this kind of a debate because, again, every Power Armored snowflake needs something special, but the countless guard regiments have to share the same options.

like, the Vostroyans are suppose to have high-quality weapons crafted by each member of the family or something, Catachans are suppose to be expert Jungle survivors and gun ho, Cadians are suppose to have unbreakable discipline and Savlar Chem Dogs are high on drugs, but on the tabletop they all share the same rules (and in the Chem Dog's case, don't even have models). Meanwhile Depending on whether or not your armor is painted red or blue, you get access to a whole new armory of weapons on top of army-wide special rules and literally more characters than whole other races. And people still complain that isn't enough for the marines.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dark Eldar was absolutely not "some level of re-doing". That was an entire range overhaul.

Which can be described as being on a scale of redoing as "some level of redoing"

Eldar just saw their oldest basic kit(the Jetbike Guardians) redone in plastic, with plastic characters to boot.

Again, which can be described as some level of redoing. Not forgetting of course a couple of updates/replacements of other kits and the introduction of new units

And like I said about Guard and Sisters; the Cadians are nice but have not done well with age. They show their age with lack of weapon options and moldlines in funky places. Alternate Regiments aren't happening anytime soon, not in the way that people want at least.

Agreed on all points, but somewhat ignoring the point I initially made; it would be nice if some kind of redo was on the cards for the majority of non-SM forces in the near-ish future

If it's the Dark Angels book with a hooded marine on the front with a crackling power sword then you're good.
Generic Marines was a "redo" in the same vein as DA; they added Formations and a Decurion.

Not to mention the several boatloads of new models and a couple of codexes a piece they have had since some of the non-SM factions were last updated

The "redo" for Space Wolves was actually them adding new models into the range and repackaging stuff.

Well, if they were adding stuff and getting a new codex I guess I can only feel sorry for them

We've been over this dozens of times so I'm not going to rehash it in huge detail.

He says before going into it in some detail

I am a firm believer in one codex being for one faction. Chaos covering all of Chaos, IG including all the IG factions, Witchunter/SoB/Inq covering all those forces and probably Grey Knights, SM covering all marines, etc...

Given your desire to not replicate stuff and have "extraneous material" I would have thought that you would quite like to condense everything into as few books as possible with all the repeats of "Tactical Squad" and "Scout Squad" and "Dreadnought", etc between books removed

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I would disregard the BA kit entirely in this kind of a debate because, again, every Power Armored snowflake needs something special, but the countless guard regiments have to share the same options.

Because the "countless Guard Regiments" all have access to the exact same weapons, base. Their stuff is churned out of factories by and large if it is not their lasgun(special weapons and the like).

like, the Vostroyans are suppose to have high-quality weapons crafted by each member of the family or something,

The Lasguns are hand-crafted relics that get handed down from father to son.

Catachans are suppose to be expert Jungle survivors and gun ho,

Read Straken and Harker's rules sometime.

Straken even has a rule called "Gung-Ho" Harker can only be taken by a Veteran Squad that is not Grenadiers.

Cadians are suppose to have unbreakable discipline

Which the new Cadian Detachment actually shows off fairly well.

and Savlar Chem Dogs are high on drugs, but on the tabletop they all share the same rules (and in the Chem Dog's case, don't even have models).

The Chem-Dogs were also only present in the Doctrines Codex. They were represented within it as one of the "potential" Regiments that were using Chem-Inhalers.

Meanwhile Depending on whether or not your armor is painted red or blue, you get access to a whole new armory of weapons on top of army-wide special rules and literally more characters than whole other races. And people still complain that isn't enough for the marines.

Ehhh. With Blood Angels you have a point, but it's not like the generic Space Marine book is just "blue marines". Ultramarines certainly have a large number of characters--but is anyone really going to say that Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, or Imperial Fists are swimming in them?

The problem with new Guard models is that not only will they have to compete with Cadians and Catachans, they'll also have to compete with all the third party manufacturers that make Guardesque models. I'm not sure it would be worth GW's while.

If anything GW seem to be putting less of a spotlight on Catachans. Whenever Guard are mentioned in the fluff it always seems to be Cadians (how many Cadian regiments are there in the galaxy???). I think it's more likely that Catachans will be phased out than a new plastic regiment being released.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

We've been over this dozens of times so I'm not going to rehash it in huge detail.

He says before going into it in some detail

Oh please. I've got a word document stashed away that described exactly how I would separate the books into a better or more interesting format.

I am a firm believer in one codex being for one faction. Chaos covering all of Chaos, IG including all the IG factions, Witchunter/SoB/Inq covering all those forces and probably Grey Knights, SM covering all marines, etc...

And I'm a firm believer in HELL NO! Those books would be huge. It's bad enough now with just the Space Marines or Eldar codices in terms of size, let alone price. To run my Raven Guard Successor Chapter, I have a book that has literally one character for me--and quite a few formations/units that I cannot run using my Chapter specific detachment(the Talon Strike Force from Kauyon) to boot.

Given your desire to not replicate stuff and have "extraneous material" I would have thought that you would quite like to condense everything into as few books as possible with all the repeats of "Tactical Squad" and "Scout Squad" and "Dreadnought", etc between books removed

I didn't say that I had no desire to replicate stuff. I said that there is a lot of extraneous crap that would end up being paid for.

To keep with the Space Marine example, let's say you go from Space Marines to Space Wolves.
You end up with Dreadnoughts that have unique loadouts, Scouts that take up an Elite slot instead of Troops, the ability to take fairly large units of Blood Claws instead of Scouts, and things of that nature if you play Space Wolves. Add in Scouts with actual unique loadouts(Plasma Pistols and Power Weapons, plus Plasma/Meltaguns) that can't be used in the normal SM codex and you end up with extra profiles that would need to be showcased--making an even bigger book from an already large book.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

El Torro wrote:
The problem with new Guard models is that not only will they have to compete with Cadians and Catachans, they'll also have to compete with all the third party manufacturers that make Guardesque models. I'm not sure it would be worth GW's while.

If anything GW seem to be putting less of a spotlight on Catachans. Whenever Guard are mentioned in the fluff it always seems to be Cadians (how many Cadian regiments are there in the galaxy???). I think it's more likely that Catachans will be phased out than a new plastic regiment being released.

There's a TON of Cadian regiments out there. You also have the "sons" of Cadia, where there are settlers from the original Regiment that get tithed later on to form a new Cadian Regiment under a different name (Brimlock Dragoons for example).

I'm still saying that if we see new Catachans or the like, they'll be as specialized units. I could see them ditching Ratlings for Catachan Jungle Fighters as an Elite choice.

The Vostroyans actually don't need much. I decided to use the new Skiitari walker formation to supplement my Vostroyans (as they make more usable Cossacks than Rough Riders, and they came with miniature Lascannons and Autocannons that were a cinch to convert into super nice looking weapons teams in place of the heavy bolter. They even have Barrel ammunition, so the Vostroyan loader doesn't look out of place. But you don't need to use that specific piece, any Lascannon or Autocannon can fairly easily be weapon swapped in.

And as for special weapons, we have a plasma gun and the tip of the flamer can easily be clipped and replaced with a melta gun head.

At that point, Vostroyans have everything. Nobody has a Platoon Command box-there's only one command box for each regiment.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I would disregard the BA kit entirely in this kind of a debate because, again, every Power Armored snowflake needs something special, but the countless guard regiments have to share the same options.

Because the "countless Guard Regiments" all have access to the exact same weapons, base. Their stuff is churned out of factories by and large if it is not their lasgun(special weapons and the like).

like, the Vostroyans are suppose to have high-quality weapons crafted by each member of the family or something,

The Lasguns are hand-crafted relics that get handed down from father to son.

Catachans are suppose to be expert Jungle survivors and gun ho,

Read Straken and Harker's rules sometime.

Straken even has a rule called "Gung-Ho" Harker can only be taken by a Veteran Squad that is not Grenadiers.

Cadians are suppose to have unbreakable discipline

Which the new Cadian Detachment actually shows off fairly well.

and Savlar Chem Dogs are high on drugs, but on the tabletop they all share the same rules (and in the Chem Dog's case, don't even have models).

The Chem-Dogs were also only present in the Doctrines Codex. They were represented within it as one of the "potential" Regiments that were using Chem-Inhalers.

Meanwhile Depending on whether or not your armor is painted red or blue, you get access to a whole new armory of weapons on top of army-wide special rules and literally more characters than whole other races. And people still complain that isn't enough for the marines.

Ehhh. With Blood Angels you have a point, but it's not like the generic Space Marine book is just "blue marines". Ultramarines certainly have a large number of characters--but is anyone really going to say that Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, or Imperial Fists are swimming in them?

Your first point (how their equipment is mass produced) is contradicted by the second point (which points out that different regiments come by their weapons differently), which you might have seen if you had not taken my quote out of context. True Strakken and Harker have their own rules, but that's for two squads at most and I have to actually take them. I can play Blood Angels that have a different set of special rules from Ultramarines without having to field Dante or Mephiston (and this has been true across editions, not just with the advent of Chapter Tactics). And each of the Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists chapters all have more characters than Vostroyans, Tallarans, and Praetorians (I forget if Yarrick was from the Steel Legion) combined, let alone counting relics, special equipment, special rules and such. It's even worse that Valhallans and Tallarans had characters, even ones with models, but got squatted anyways for some reason. Iron Hands, while lacking characters, has a whole supplement for them and a whole suite of Relics. And I still count the Savlar Chem Dogs as a proper regiment as they have far more character than most others (they were mentioned very frequently in fluff) and technically even had rules at one point (and people complain about the BTs losing rules).

Meanwhile, again, Space Marines get their powers and equipment depending on what kind of spandex they're wearing outside of their armor.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Your first point (how their equipment is mass produced) is contradicted by the second point (which points out that different regiments come by their weapons differently), which you might have seen if you had not taken my quote out of context.

I didn't "take your quote out of context". The Lasgun that Vostroyans use is, in terms of its power and the like for game purposes, no different than a Cadian's mass-produced Kantrael short-pattern Lasgun.

There was also a qualifier to indicate that exceptions did exist--but a Lasgun is a Lasgun for the purposes of 40k.

True Strakken and Harker have their own rules, but that's for two squads at most and I have to actually take them.

It also comes down to a thematic element. Catachans are always described as veteran troopers--and the Veteran Squads can take two elements that are rejigged from Catachan rules. The Demo Squad and Forward Sentries both had their origins in the Catachan setups.

I can play Blood Angels that have a different set of special rules from Ultramarines without having to field Dante or Mephiston (and this has been true across editions, not just with the advent of Chapter Tactics). And each of the Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Imperial Fists chapters all have more characters than Vostroyans, Tallarns, and Praetorians (I forget if Yarrick was from the Steel Legion) combined, let alone counting relics, special equipment, special rules and such. It's even worse that Valhallans and Tallarns had characters, even ones with models, but got squatted anyways for some reason. Iron Hands, while lacking characters, has a whole supplement for them and a whole suite of Relics.

And Tallarn, Vostroyans, and Valhallans had nothing that made them "stand out" beyond their garb and background stuff relating to their tactics for those specific characters. That was really all there was.

Yarrick's a Commissar, so doesn't really count for anyone.

And I still count the Savlar Chem Dogs as a proper regiment as they have far more character than most others (they were mentioned very frequently in fluff) and technically even had rules at one point (and people complain about the BTs losing rules).

Where in the world have Savlar Chem-Dogs been "mentioned very frequently in fluff"? The only mentions I've been able to find were from Chapter Approved 2003, IA1, and 3rd edition IG Codex(doctrines).

Are they in Only War a lot? Because that's really the only Guard stuff I don't have fluffwise.

Meanwhile, again, Space Marines get their powers and equipment depending on what kind of spandex they're wearing outside of their armor.

Let's be real for a second here. I'm going to guess you dislike this system with Space Marines having different options because you feel it somehow detracts from the Guard, right?

Yeah. I'm with you on that. But until large numbers of players actually start settling in and being willing to commit to themed forces rather than "what can I run my Marines as this week...", we won't see any real change.

The Cadian Detachment in Mont'ka was a good effort to bring some flavor back to Guard. It really was. But being that it was a themed Detachment rather than a Codex Update, it could have been better.

I honestly like the Cadian plastics - I think if assembled and painted properly they look really nice... What that kit needs is an update - keep the base models, but rejig the frames to put all of the weapon options on - include a plastic plasma gun, plastic melta-gun and different sergeant weapons. Throw in some more heads or a few different torsos or arms to allow people to make veterans.