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I think TH/SS Wulfen would be pretty damn scary. What really caught my eye was their ability to run and charge in the same turn; this doesn't give them insane mobility but does give them enough to still be considered fast, as there's never a reason to not run with them.

The TH is neglectable but the SS would be crucial, as it would help them survive the brief hoofing they'd have to do. a 3++ with a 5+ FnP is roughly equivallent to a 2+ armor save, and they have 2 wounds to buffer it out.

I know they die to powerfists really easily, but I'd rather see them as faster, sweeping Terminators; for 50 points they're only a few points more than actual hammernators (from either codex) but have way more attacks (especially on the charge. That and you can skimp on some points because you don't need them all with TH/SS's.

You really want to equip half of them with SS and somewhere around half with TH. This should not be the same half.

They are durable, great on the charge, and relatively cheap. They cost as much in termie range when loaded out but are superior in nearly every way.

They have a few targets they don't want to charge, GMCs and Dreads being the biggest offenders, but they will still crush most targets in CC. The run+charge is nice, allowing them to charge unless the unit they are facing is very fast.

I would rate them a T2 melee unit. They aren't as good as TWC or wraiths, but are sitting right outside there. I think in the wolves dex they will see play.

A transport is not needed at all for them. They are tough enough defensively to just march them forward.

Akiasura wrote:
You really want to equip half of them with SS and somewhere around half with TH. This should not be the same half.

I am going to have to bust your burble, but you have to take the TH and the SS on the same model.

What Spam Said.

Otherwise I'd be running puppies with only shields and nothing else

They will see a lot of play though, as again they fulfill the CotGW's minimum Elites requirement, and the slew of rules they bring with them are so much better than anything else in that slot, or maybe even ObSec (considering they can just maul the face off of anyone trying to challenge them, I don't think they really need the ObSec) This could all change if CotGW is rendered invalid, which is a possibility.

That's a shame, makes them a bit weaker. What's everyone thinking for the optimum setup then?
Is it worth dropping Sm for? I love wulfen and might use the SW codex for my alpha legion instead of marines if it works better. But I'd hate to spend more money on GW

 koooaei wrote:
As for wulfen against nobz, possessed and ogryns, yep, they're clearly superior for no good reason.

There is an excellent reason. There are thousands of Ork players out there with many, many nob models on player's shelves. The number of Wulfen model currently sold is very, very low.

If you were a modeling company, which would you buf?

Akiasura wrote:
That's a shame, makes them a bit weaker. What's everyone thinking for the optimum setup then?
Is it worth dropping Sm for? I love wulfen and might use the SW codex for my alpha legion instead of marines if it works better. But I'd hate to spend more money on GW

Imo, optimum setting is about 2-4 with SS and TH to tank hits and the rest with wither 2xfrostclaws and GreatAxes (if you are fighting an army likely to assault you like tyranid, Harlequins or orks, then more frost claws)


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 JimOnMars wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
As for wulfen against nobz, possessed and ogryns, yep, they're clearly superior for no good reason.

There is an excellent reason. There are thousands of Ork players out there with many, many nob models on player's shelves. The number of Wulfen model currently sold is very, very low.

If you were a modeling company, which would you buf?

Imo, that is exactly the kind of short term thinking that has made GW profit shrink years after years

 JimOnMars wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
As for wulfen against nobz, possessed and ogryns, yep, they're clearly superior for no good reason.

There is an excellent reason. There are thousands of Ork players out there with many, many nob models on player's shelves. The number of Wulfen model currently sold is very, very low.

If you were a modeling company, which would you buf?

It doesn't help that the majority of players who have nobz got them on the cheap from Black reach a long time ago, so the amount of people that actually bought the plastic kit can probably be counted on one person's fingers and toes.

the_scotsman wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Yeah, the new Wulfen are pretty broken. But that's GW's new thing.


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 koooaei wrote:
Well, in this case, yep. They're basically slower twc that dislike s8+ instead of s10. But are better vs grav.

Except with better abilities. They give good bonuses to all units within 12(?)", come stock with FNP, can swing at Initiative the turn they charge with their Thunder Hammer, and as soon as they die, they get to pile in and attack.

Interesting that 2/3 of the reasons you listed for why they're OP were...wrong, at least partially.

Wulfen give their Curse to any SW unit within 6", outside a transport. 12" for Blood Claws Skyclaws and Swiftclaws.

They can't swing their TH at initiative on the charge. They swing their axe on the charge at initiative.

Oh, such a big difference. Their axe is basically a TH (S7 AP2?) with Helfrost at Init. That's pretty good. And the curses, 6" or not, are pretty good as well.

Your options for Wulfen are basically 1) buy a 250 point transport for a minimum 150 point glass cannon assault unit.

2) buy a plane, get on the board turn 3 at the earliest

3) try to hoof it, risk getting shot to pieces.

Generally if you have a thing and lasguns will reliably kill it, there's only so OP it can be.

How? They're 2 Wounds a pop, can buy a 3++ save, can run and charge, and reroll failed charges. I don't think getting them into combat is going to be that hard, especially considering one of their new formations (Wulfen Murderpack) can potentially let you move twice.

It's a big difference because if you buy a SS for the durability, that guy is never going to strike at initiative...because TH/SS come as a package. Plus they're S10? And cost more than twice as much as the axes?

Also (Once again, if you're not going to play test them at LEAST try more than skimming the rules before declaring something OP) THE WULFEN CANNOT BENEFIT FROM COTW.

your will NEVER have the Curse mobility benefits. They can run and charge, yes. But thanks to how deployment works, it is impossible for wulfen to be in combat turn 1 if they don't have a land raider (even then it's a heck of a stretch and is thwarted by an opponent deploying more than 2" behind the deployment line)

How will lasguns kill them?

Like this: 24" range, FRFSRF. On average for each 12 lasguns you fire, you will kill 1 wulfen with TH/SS. Could you kill double the number of tactical marines out in the open? Then you can kill wulfen. The best way to do it is use weight of fire to knock off whatever ones they stuck with TH/SS, then flatten the rest with a couple AP4 or less attacks.

These things ain't Necron Wraiths, TWC, Wraithknights or whatever: actually OP units who can easily create a situation where the opponent has nothing that can kill them. You can always kill wulfen, and if you can't kill them anything that moves faster than standard infantry can avoid them.

the_scotsman wrote:
It's a big difference because if you buy a SS for the durability, that guy is never going to strike at initiative...because TH/SS come as a package. Plus they're S10? And cost more than twice as much as the axes?

True, but like TWC you don't need the loadout on all of them. Just enough.
Granted mix and matching would have made them a lot better, but they certainly don't look bad.

the_scotsman wrote:

Also (Once again, if you're not going to play test them at LEAST try more than skimming the rules before declaring something OP) THE WULFEN CANNOT BENEFIT FROM COTW.

your will NEVER have the Curse mobility benefits. They can run and charge, yes. But thanks to how deployment works, it is impossible for wulfen to be in combat turn 1 if they don't have a land raider (even then it's a heck of a stretch and is thwarted by an opponent deploying more than 2" behind the deployment line)

I am hardpressed to think of any unit that can't deepstrike assault that will be in combat turn 1. Even wraiths need turn 2 at the earliest, so that seems a poor metric.
I'll admit that they probably won't see combat until turn 4, which makes them about average to slow. But once there they will hit like a truck, and seem good at absorbing shots on the way up as well.
But as you said, not many have playtested them. I'm going to try them out next week against mutilator spam

the_scotsman wrote:

How will lasguns kill them?

Like this: 24" range, FRFSRF. On average for each 12 lasguns you fire, you will kill 1 wulfen with TH/SS.

1/2*1/3*1/2*2/3 = 2/36, so it takes 18 lasgun shots to cause a wound no? They have 2 wounds each, so that would be 36 shots to kill one? So at rapid fire range, a squad firing will drop 1, maybe?
This is with the basic loadout, the TH/SS options are slightly better at 1/2*1/3*1/3*2/3= 2/54, so 27 shots to cause a wound, 54 to kill one. 12 at 24" doesn't seem to do it.
They do a lot better against plasma since the save is invul and they get their 5+ FnP. Grav too. Against scat bikes its obviously a non starter.

the_scotsman wrote:

Could you kill double the number of tactical marines out in the open? Then you can kill wulfen. The best way to do it is use weight of fire to knock off whatever ones they stuck with TH/SS, then flatten the rest with a couple AP4 or less attacks.

This is misleading a bit. Special weapons cause most kills in many armies, and wulfen will be sporting a few 3++ saves (compared to 5+ cover) and a 5+ FnP (compared to nothing).

the_scotsman wrote:

These things ain't Necron Wraiths, TWC, Wraithknights or whatever: actually OP units who can easily create a situation where the opponent has nothing that can kill them. You can always kill wulfen, and if you can't kill them anything that moves faster than standard infantry can avoid them.

I don't think anyone is claiming they are there, and I agree if they are they are sadly mistaken, but they are certainly good. Probably on par with flayed ones; a strictly T2 melee unit that can see table time.
People are just excited because its rare to see any melee unit get table time unless it's as OP as the ones you listed. There are a few, but the majority of melee units are bad.

"Yeah, the new Wulfen are pretty broken. But that's GW's new thing. "

-what I was responding to.

They're not broken, they're a half-decent melee unit that you can add to your list without gimping yourself. That's great. Awesome. Do they crap all over most elite light armored melee units out there? Hell yes, because they're not crap, like every one of those other ones are. Against Mutilators, yes, they will probably wreck their faces but you're never gonna get more out of them than you would with a Thunderwolf Death Star.

the_scotsman wrote:
"Yeah, the new Wulfen are pretty broken. But that's GW's new thing. "

-what I was responding to.

They're not broken, they're a half-decent melee unit that you can add to your list without gimping yourself. That's great. Awesome. Do they crap all over most elite light armored melee units out there? Hell yes, because they're not crap, like every one of those other ones are. Against Mutilators, yes, they will probably wreck their faces but you're never gonna get more out of them than you would with a Thunderwolf Death Star.

Fair enough, I didn't see that quote. You are 100% correct in that regard, they are not up there with the deathstars. Anyone claiming such is sorely mistaken. I don't think a deathstar of wulfen are worth it, but they'd make a good second wave to charge in after the TWC lose their momentum and begin to suffer casualties.

Honestly I think they crap over any melee unit that isn't part of a deathstar or in the Daemons codex. Well, and a MC or GMC. They are a very good unit and it shows that GW can make melee units when they want to. Hopefully this transfers over to the CSM dex when it gets written.

I would call the wulfen death star killers... Getting a round of attacks when they die at the end, and the volume of high strength hits makes them a very deadly unit.

They are the ideal unit to throw at a death star before you use the wolf star to finish off the already badly damaged unit with ease. That is assuming the wulfen don't kill them on their own.

Makes me cringe when I compare them to possessed....

Or any other cc unit for that matter


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Or any other cc unit for that matter

Mr. CyberPunk wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
Let me start off by saying, yes I am late to the party & also that I am happy for space wolves players. I think its very cool the wulfen are returning & I very much expect to see them fielded by most space wolves players.

That said...

I'm looking at the rules for the wulfen here, which essentially are terminators on roids & then I look at units like Ogryn/Bullgryn/Ork Nobs & I don't even. Basically just about every special rule the wulfen have should be standard in the ork codex or at the very least be on most nobs, but also when looking at the point cost its just insane. The base cost of bullgryn for example is about the same as fully upgraded wolfen, yet lack the lethality, any good special rules & must be assigned a baby sitter (commissar etc), just to make the unit functional which bloats their cost even more.

Yes I am aware that IG have a plethora of allies at their disposal, however IG players shouldn't be forced to take allies to be a competitive army. I'm aware GW is a "modeling" company & thus rules/balance are no longer their concern but surely sales are? Pretty much every IG player I know does not use Ogryn/Bullgryn for example because of their point cost/lack of effectiveness. So I guess my question is...how does GW go about determining rules/point values when making new units like the wulfen? Do they just throw darts at a wall or do they cross reference points between other armies or what?

Yeah, I did some MathHammer, and it's sad how the Nobz fare. Really sad :( (and that wasn't even taking into account the second attack if they are killed). Wulfen are also a lot more resistant since you can put 2 or 3 of them with Storm Shiled in the front to tank hits. They are also a lot faster, boost allies and more versatile.

The 2xFrostClaws make them specially absurd, second attack when killed shouldn't work vs I.D. or D Weapon. And they still would be very good.

What make the whole thing even more ridiculous is that in 7ed Ork codex, they nerfed the Nobz by removing 5++ option for them. Yet, they make c.c. beasts like the wulfen and lychguard soon after

Though I do like that cybork body gives FNP now instead of invul. (invul. didn't felt very orky imo), it should be FNP 5+ and Nobz should still be allowed to take it. And they would still suck lol.

yes it seems wulfen can out terminator a terminator which is kinda sad, unless your a specialist like the deathwing knight. here hoping they catch on though because im sick of seeing thunderwolf spam

You're Ogryn are jealous? How do you think my Death Company feel? Can we get Reaping Swings and Death Frenzies etc?

Pfff feel for us Nid players. Stealers fluff wise, one of the most lethal hth combatants in the Galaxy?
Ya.

There are definately needed bonuses for certain units in the game. Nob units are far from great, but have uses. ogryn have stunk for 12 years or so. They need about a 30% price decrease to make them wothy of their statline. Tyranid players also feel the pain with both Genestealers and Warriors.

I love my Genestealers, and they're actually decently priced. It's the new game favoring shooting over assault that's betrayed them. Taking away the ability to assault the turn a unit arrives from reserves as well as the increased amount of Ignores Cover is what's hurting genestealers.

As for the actual topic, GW just continues to be abysmal at balancing out the units via points costs. I don't begrudge most units their special rules, it's just the points costs that are usually wonky. Unfortunately, it's the major balancing mechanic in their game, and therefor, when they get it wrong there's a lot of frowny faces to go around.

It would be amazing if GW would come out and be like "Ok...we really screwed some stuff up. Possessed and Warp Talons are getting cheaper. The Wraithknight...that points cost was a typo and it was supposed to cost 395. Terminators are getting 5 or 10 pts cheaper, etc." They'll never do it, but wouldn't it be in their best interests to make some of the models they put real time and work into (Warp Talons, for example) actually attractive to their customers? I just don't get why they'd put all the time and effort into great models and then handicap that model with an inefficient points cost. Dumb Dumb Dumb.

I think Wulfen appear to be fairly costed. I for am glad to see a decent melee unit as opposed to yet another SAFH unit. If Wulfen manage to shake up the meta it'd be a good thing for the game in general.

Why would you compare Ogryns to Wulfen? Do SW have armor 12 transports with multiple str 6 guns? Do they have Wyverns which are terribly undercosted that lay waste to infantry? How about armor 14 tanks and upgrades for them? Orders to assign to their troops? IG and SW are different. Honestly in this edition of 40K, it doesnt matter how many attacks they have, Tau and Eldar will just shoot them before they reach combat, Crons can too, and have the resiliency to bounce back up. SM and DA have their demi companies and Grav guns, Khorne free FNP, Bloodthirsters with D attacks. SW have a real lack of shooting, and honestly Wulfen aren't tough enough to make it into combat with Eldar and Tau- they both have plenty of shooting and str 8 sill kills them dead and 52 pts - so roughly 250 pts for a unit, isnt cheap. With how broken they have made shooting units in 40k- especially the new Tau formations, GW can either make yet another shooty unit to try and trump the last shooty unit, or they can try to make a unit resilient enough to weather the storm of fire. I personally dont think the wulfen are, but I guess time will tell.

Well let's give em a chance. I think there's lots of potential.