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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Even then with the Grey Knights it's still murky.

The Daemon codex mention Slaanesh corrupting a Silver-armoured warrior who had the strength of will to make it through all 6 rings of his/her realm uncorrupted before turning as soon as they encountered Slaamesh (While not explicitly mentioned to be a Grey Knight, the description heavily implies it).

That very same Codex states that no Grey Knight has fallen to Chaos.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Even then with the Grey Knights it's still murky.

The Daemon codex mention Slaanesh corrupting a Silver-armoured warrior who had the strength of will to make it through all 6 rings of his/her realm uncorrupted before turning as soon as they encountered Slaamesh (While not explicitly mentioned to be a Grey Knight, the description heavily implies it).

That very same Codex states that no Grey Knight has fallen to Chaos.

I can't find the passage/page that explicitly states that. The closest I can find is where it calls them 'Incorruptible' in general, but not that specifically that none have ever fallen.
Plus the passage that contains that line also says that Grey Knights are resistant to the temptations of Chaos, which is partially contradicted in the story opposite the Changeling's page.

Codex: Grey Knights states that they are incorruptible, because their geneseed is of direct descent from the Emperor. It's been their "thing" since the army was introduced, though the reason for it was never so plainly stated.

There are no GK who have ever willingly turned to the service of Chaos. There are those who have "fallen" in battle because they died due to Warp Magic, daemonic attacks, CSM bolters, whatever... maybe even undergoing horrific mutations and the like but, the important bit being, their minds and souls did not "switch sides".

 Psienesis wrote:
Codex: Grey Knights states that they are incorruptible, because their geneseed is of direct descent from the Emperor. It's been their "thing" since the army was introduced, though the reason for it was never so plainly stated.

It's also, as the HH novels have revealed, a lie. The GK's geneseed was actually sourced from all the legions, both loyalist and traitor.

epronovost wrote:

I don't think the 'echanicus can bring people back from the dead per say. They can use your body, but your mind will be dead. A brain connection doesn't survive more than an hour or two after death.

In DH there's a heretical technology called the Sarcosian Wave Generator, which allows, among other things, the creation of what amounts to sentient undead who are for all pratical purposes, unaging. This is most likely what Creatures Anathema is talking about when it mentions 'dead Sisters' assailing the penal troopers.

epronovost wrote:

On another note, were they Sisters of Battle or Hospitalier? According to other pieces of lore, only one Sister of Battle ever fell willingly to the power of Chaos.

This is actually the crux of the matter here, not whether they were hospitilar or militant. I doubt they embraced chaos willingly, at least initially. And it was one sororitas, not one SoB, so that would include the other orders. At least, in theory.

@Baronlveagh

I doubt that if they have used the wave generator they would still count as Sisters. They just borrowed Sisters body. Substance dualism being an actual thing in 40K, a person is define by its soul/spirit not its body. Thus your exemple is not a very good one for corrupted Sisters if indeed such a technologie was used on their body. In fact, I don't even think it would count as corruption. They were just a sack of animated flesh thanks to to magic-like technologie.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

I can't find the passage/page that explicitly states that. The closest I can find is where it calls them 'Incorruptible' in general, but not that specifically that none have ever fallen.
Plus the passage that contains that line also says that Grey Knights are resistant to the temptations of Chaos, which is partially contradicted in the story opposite the Changeling's page.

Page 45, with the story about the Changeling planting a seed of doubt in Grey knight Brother Brutus.

In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos; only time would tell if Brother brutus would be any different.

The rebel Chapters in the Badab War didn't rebel due to the influence of Chaos*, but the Astral Claws did turn to Chaos after their defeat. That might have been as an act of desperation, with nowhere else to turn, rather than any "free" choice, though.

There are instances where entire companies, or even chapters, or Marines have turned to Chaos, though - the Crimson Slaughter for one, although I don't know how many of them remained when they fell.

* Lufgt Huron may have fallen under the influence of the Ruinous Powers, or he may simply have been a paranoid megalomaniac.

The part about there only being a single Sister to ever willingly fall to Chaos is a flat out lie. What the Sisters and the Grey Knights have that the marines lack are failsafes to stop corruption. Marines are more or less a completly independent organizations whereupon the sisters, GK and DW are militant arms of the Inquisition. AKA the top brass is in fact the Inquisitor lords and not the their own command.

In the case of sisters you're put into the sisters repentina, pentinent Engine or, if all else fails, get turned into a acro flagellant, at any sign of corruption.

The Grey Knights seem to lack this at first glance but they are never deployed without the Ordo Malleus consent (correct me if I'm wrong here). Therefore they will be tested to the point of ridicule by Inquisitorial agent after each and every mission.

Now that does not mean that there hasn't been traitors. I assume that GK traitors are simply put down quickly and sisters have never hade one that caused enough damadged to be noticed on something as broad as a codex. I recall an old short story where two sisters talk and one can't believe the other one was a traitor. The traitor then runs her sword through the faithfull sister and walks away. Reminds me of this argument as a whole.
As a side note there are radical sisters. In Redemption Corpse (a terrible piece of litterature that I would not reccomend to anyone) there's a whole order of sisters that has come to the conclussion that
If that's possible then surely a few chaos worshiping orders can't be such a far fetched idea.

Nerak wrote:
The part about there only being a single Sister to ever willingly fall to Chaos is a flat out lie. What the Sisters and the Grey Knights have that the marines lack are failsafes to stop corruption. Marines are more or less a completly independent organizations whereupon the sisters, GK and DW are militant arms of the Inquisition. AKA the top brass is in fact the Inquisitor lords and not the their own command.

Nope.
Sisters are the fed's and private enforcers of the Ecclesiarchy, the imposing figure breathing down the neck of any cardinal thinking about heresy. Since their goals coincide with those of the Inquisition, they often work together, but the Abbess do NOT take orders from inquisitor lords. As she is a High Lord of Terra herself, I doubt she takes orders from anyone.

Nerak wrote:
In the case of sisters you're put into the sisters repentina, pentinent Engine or, if all else fails, get turned into a acro flagellant, at any sign of corruption.

That's not how it work.

Nerak wrote:
The Grey Knights seem to lack this at first glance but they are never deployed without the Ordo Malleus consent (correct me if I'm wrong here). Therefore they will be tested to the point of ridicule by Inquisitorial agent after each and every mission.

Grey Knight do not fall for corruption, Inquisitors often do. You have this all backward.

Nerak wrote:
The part about there only being a single Sister to ever willingly fall to Chaos is a flat out lie. What the Sisters and the Grey Knights have that the marines lack are failsafes to stop corruption. Marines are more or less a completly independent organizations whereupon the sisters, GK and DW are militant arms of the Inquisition. AKA the top brass is in fact the Inquisitor lords and not the their own command.

In the case of sisters you're put into the sisters repentina, pentinent Engine or, if all else fails, get turned into a acro flagellant, at any sign of corruption.

The Grey Knights seem to lack this at first glance but they are never deployed without the Ordo Malleus consent (correct me if I'm wrong here). Therefore they will be tested to the point of ridicule by Inquisitorial agent after each and every mission.

Now that does not mean that there hasn't been traitors. I assume that GK traitors are simply put down quickly and sisters have never hade one that caused enough damadged to be noticed on something as broad as a codex. I recall an old short story where two sisters talk and one can't believe the other one was a traitor. The traitor then runs her sword through the faithfull sister and walks away. Reminds me of this argument as a whole.
As a side note there are radical sisters. In Redemption Corpse (a terrible piece of litterature that I would not reccomend to anyone) there's a whole order of sisters that has come to the conclussion that

Spoiler:

The Imperium must be destroyed in order to grow strong, willingly siding with Xenos against the Imperium

If that's possible then surely a few chaos worshiping orders can't be such a far fetched idea.

It's been stated explicitly since at least the third edition demonhunters book all the way through the 7th edition codex. can't get more clear than no grey knight has ever fallen to chaos.

epronovost wrote:
@Baronlveagh

I doubt that if they have used the wave generator they would still count as Sisters. They just borrowed Sisters body. Substance dualism being an actual thing in 40K, a person is define by its soul/spirit not its body. Thus your exemple is not a very good one for corrupted Sisters if indeed such a technologie was used on their body. In fact, I don't even think it would count as corruption. They were just a sack of animated flesh thanks to to magic-like technologie.

Yes, but it's also specific that not all of them are 'dead'. So, we're looking at a situation where the sisters that didn't go willingly were made to serve in another way.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

epronovost wrote:
@Baronlveagh

I doubt that if they have used the wave generator they would still count as Sisters. They just borrowed Sisters body. Substance dualism being an actual thing in 40K, a person is define by its soul/spirit not its body. Thus your exemple is not a very good one for corrupted Sisters if indeed such a technologie was used on their body. In fact, I don't even think it would count as corruption. They were just a sack of animated flesh thanks to to magic-like technologie.

Yes, but it's also specific that not all of them are 'dead'. So, we're looking at a situation where the sisters that didn't go willingly were made to serve in another way.

Is there a place where I can read this story. There is no entry in lexicanum and I don't own this book?

epronovost wrote:

Is there a place where I can read this story. There is no entry in lexicanum and I don't own this book?

It's on page 18, but online I have no idea. Page 16 implies that it is part of a larger tech heresy gripping that area of the sector, effecting mechanicum and medicae facilities alike.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Nerak wrote:
The part about there only being a single Sister to ever willingly fall to Chaos is a flat out lie. What the Sisters and the Grey Knights have that the marines lack are failsafes to stop corruption. Marines are more or less a completly independent organizations whereupon the sisters, GK and DW are militant arms of the Inquisition. AKA the top brass is in fact the Inquisitor lords and not the their own command.

In the case of sisters you're put into the sisters repentina, pentinent Engine or, if all else fails, get turned into a acro flagellant, at any sign of corruption.

The Grey Knights seem to lack this at first glance but they are never deployed without the Ordo Malleus consent (correct me if I'm wrong here). Therefore they will be tested to the point of ridicule by Inquisitorial agent after each and every mission.

Now that does not mean that there hasn't been traitors. I assume that GK traitors are simply put down quickly and sisters have never hade one that caused enough damadged to be noticed on something as broad as a codex. I recall an old short story where two sisters talk and one can't believe the other one was a traitor. The traitor then runs her sword through the faithfull sister and walks away. Reminds me of this argument as a whole.
As a side note there are radical sisters. In Redemption Corpse (a terrible piece of litterature that I would not reccomend to anyone) there's a whole order of sisters that has come to the conclussion that

Spoiler:

The Imperium must be destroyed in order to grow strong, willingly siding with Xenos against the Imperium

If that's possible then surely a few chaos worshiping orders can't be such a far fetched idea.

It's been stated explicitly since at least the third edition demonhunters book all the way through the 7th edition codex. can't get more clear than no grey knight has ever fallen to chaos.

True. I'm gonna double check the 3rd one just to be sure but I'm pretty sure the codex states exactly that. Chaos however does corrupt, and no one, not even grey Knights, can get into contact with it without mutations/psychic anomilaties/strange event occurring. Given that the Grey Knights have been operating for 10.000 years where they all but exclusively fight Chaos minions there must have been several cases of Grey Knights being lost in the warp or getting captured. In "Let the galaxy burn" there was a short story where a 5 man Grey Knight terminator squad as well as an inquisitor lord got overrun by a chaos space marine force. My Point is that no one remains the same after a few hundred or thousand years in a chaos rich enviroment/prison. Hence I'm certain there must have been cases of Grey Knights being tainted by the lure of chaos throughout the millenium and standard procedure is probably that they end their own lives as a result.

I recall a thread from Warseer witch discussed if a necron could be corrupted by chaos. The main argument for it was that a rock can get corrupted. Hence a necron warrior can. The same logic sounds legit with even something as resistant as Aegis armour. I am very well aware about Caldor Draigo walking around in the warp as well as Garran Crowe wielding a demonsword, I just can't phantom that no Grey Knight would ever have been tempted by the very thing they're fighting throughout 10.000 years. Willingly falling and feeling temptation are very diffrent things of course but as far as I'm aware where the Inquisition is concerned gets taken serious and bullets get put into heads where filth is found.

I suppose in the end what I'm trying to say is that there must have been Grey Knights who've wanted to fall but subsequently been forcibly stopped from doing exactly that.

A rock can be tainted by the Warp, but it cannot be "corrupted" in the sense that is meant when referring to GK, as a rock is non-sentient and doesn't have a soul. Given that we now know that they have the imprint of the Emperor's pure genetics, it may be now that they cannot even be tainted.

"Though there are no complete accounts even in the archives of the Inquisition, the lords of the Ordo Malleus believe that as many as fifty Space Marine Chapter have fully fallen to the wiles of Chaos since the end of the Horus Heresy." - Codex CSM (4e), p.18

50 whole chapters, not counting rogue companies, squads or individuals. Granted, it's just an in-universe guess, but still, that's a lot of heresy.

I would imagine most chapters are not at full strength when they fall.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

I can't find the passage/page that explicitly states that. The closest I can find is where it calls them 'Incorruptible' in general, but not that specifically that none have ever fallen.
Plus the passage that contains that line also says that Grey Knights are resistant to the temptations of Chaos, which is partially contradicted in the story opposite the Changeling's page.

Page 45, with the story about the Changeling planting a seed of doubt in Grey knight Brother Brutus.

In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos; only time would tell if Brother brutus would be any different.

His name is freaking Brutus! There is no way that BL isn't going to release a sequel with some "et tu, brute?" moment in it, that sort of heavy handed foreshadowing absolutely means that Brother Brutus will fall. His. Name. Is. Brutus.

Also: For the vast majority of Space Marines, such as those sent on the Abyssal Crusade, willingness does not factor into Chaos corruption. Their bodies get corrupted, and their minds follow regardless of whether or not the Marines actually wanted to fall, or not (it's a brainwashing technique, scream a lie in someone's face often enough, they'll start to believe it. It might take 10 tries, it might take 10 million tries, but it always works eventually). The same can be said of any SoB that has mutations, her body has been corrupted, and thus her mind will eventually follow.

Why don't I remember this Brutus?

Besides BL knows that a fall of a Grey Knight is a major lure to Chaos players. Remember that one book where they kept going on about how a Purifier fell... not. If a Grey Knight does fall the reason is because 40k is getting a Age of Sigmar.

One could argue since Grey Knights have their roots in all of the legions, several legions of them fell.

 dusara217 wrote:

His name is freaking Brutus! There is no way that BL isn't going to release a sequel with some "et tu, brute?" moment in it, that sort of heavy handed foreshadowing absolutely means that Brother Brutus will fall. His. Name. Is. Brutus.

My feeling is that he'll never be mentioned again but you never know. Either way currently according to Games Workshop no Grey Knight has fallen to Chaos.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
One could argue since Grey Knights have their roots in all of the legions, several legions of them fell.

Not really those where normal marines that fell, the process that they go through can't be compared to the Grey Knights training.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
[
Not really those where normal marines that fell, the process that they go through can't be compared to the Grey Knights training.

And you can't really compare current SM training to that undergone during the Great Crusade either, so how are they 'normal' marines?

And the Excorcists would also like to have a word with you...

I'm not aware of any significant changes to Astartes training over the last 10,000 years, in either the background or gameplay. Considering we have stats for 30k units now thanks to forge world and tactical squads have identical stats, it would seem that marine training like most of the imperium has been stagnant for the last 10,000 years for most chapters.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm not aware of any significant changes to Astartes training over the last 10,000 years, in either the background or gameplay. Considering we have stats for 30k units now thanks to forge world and tactical squads have identical stats, it would seem that marine training like most of the imperium has been stagnant for the last 10,000 years for most chapters.

You're confusing fluff and game rules.

Units have the stats they do for reasons of balance (usually) not fluff.

Or does the past magically change each time that stats get FAQ'd?

I'm not confusing anything.

I stated that I have seen no fluff to suggest that 30k marines are any better or worse than the 40k version on average.

There is a great deal of fluff showing 30k SM procedures are worse than GK.

Many Terran 30k marines fell to Chaos because they felt snubbed. GK should not remember their past after they are done. 30k marines are just augmented, 40k marines are indoctrinated and have rituals to bond within their chapter etc.

 dusara217 wrote:


Also: For the vast majority of Space Marines, such as those sent on the Abyssal Crusade, willingness does not factor into Chaos corruption. Their bodies get corrupted, and their minds follow regardless of whether or not the Marines actually wanted to fall, or not (it's a brainwashing technique, scream a lie in someone's face often enough, they'll start to believe it. It might take 10 tries, it might take 10 million tries, but it always works eventually). The same can be said of any SoB that has mutations, her body has been corrupted, and thus her mind will eventually follow.

... speaking of lies repeated so often they have been believed as true.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'm not aware of any significant changes to Astartes training over the last 10,000 years, in either the background or gameplay. Considering we have stats for 30k units now thanks to forge world and tactical squads have identical stats, it would seem that marine training like most of the imperium has been stagnant for the last 10,000 years for most chapters.

The fluff for the Codex Astartes has actually very specifically said in multiple sources dating all the way back to 2nd Edition that it completely revamped the way Space Marines were trained after the Heresy. Mostly to do two things. First eliminate all the shortcuts taken by the Legions which resulted in less pure and less stable geneseed, as well as lower quality recruits. Game stats are fairly irrelevant, given than 40K works off of D6s, which means it has a set 16.6% deviation. Unless Space Marines have become significantly faster or significantly slower, tougher, stronger, etc, their stat line isn't going to change. However, the Marines in 30K don't have ATSKNF, which is a pretty clear delineation in training standards. Which is the second thing that the Codex Astartes set out to do. It codified every aspect of training new Marines, from how they are selected, to how they are trained and indoctrinated. Again, with the idea that the cult of personality between Marines and their Primarchs was a major factor in the Heresy. Marines revered their Primarchs above the Emperor and thus they more willingly followed them to ruin and treachery. The Codex sought to eliminate that cult of personality by reducing the Primarch's influence and increasing the Emperor's.

And it seems to have worked. Based on the numbers provided in the various Chaos Codexes and such, about 2-3% of Space Marines appear to have fallen to Chaos since the Heresy once you factor in the fact that there have been far more than 1000 Chapters total (those that have been destroyed, lost, etc), and a large number of the ones who have, haven't done so by choice, but more by circumstance (getting thrown into the Eye of Terror, for example). I mean, the Badab War was so monumental, it got its own place in the fluff, and in the end, only a handful of the Marines actually turned to Chaos once the true nature of the threat was revealed. Most of the rebelling Chapters simply accepted penance.


As far as the Sisters, there really isn't much fluff on it, but that is mostly because source material for the Sisters is so limited. The line about only one Sister ever falling to Chaos that used to be cited because somebody put it in the Lexicanum doesn't even exist in the 2nd Edition Codex. That book doesn't mention Sisters falling to Chaos either way, but, with that noted, neither does the Codex: Imperial Guard talk about fallen units, so the omission can't be taken as proof of infallibility. However, there has been no established canonical immunity, and the precedent has been set. with corrupted Sisters in official material, so one can assume it happens from time to time. Though, like with Space Marines, probably more based on circumstance than on choice, with daemonic possession, psychic influence, and capture being most likely.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
One could argue since Grey Knights have their roots in all of the legions, several legions of them fell.

If I recall correctly from what I heard of the Black Library novels, they actually re-did the Knight Errants' gene seed with the Grey Knights process (as in, completely went into Garro's DNA and modified it to be more like what would become the modern Grey Knights), so the Knights Errants could no longer be considered to have genetically descended from the traitor legions, as their genetic ties to them have been removed.

So the Grey Knight's roots are no longer in all of the legions, as their founders (the Knight Errants) had their ties to those legions completely removed on the genetic level.

My memory could be wrong.