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I don't recall that, unless it's a very new one.

Note that the Knights Errant may have been from individual legions, but the full chapter of the Grey Knights weren't - they didn't get 1,000 recruits. The bulk are probably 'home grown' with the aforementioned 'new gene-seed'.

Which may or may not be the stuff Omegon stole from Deliverance.


[quote[The Imperium must be destroyed in order to grow strong, willingly siding with Xenos against the Imperium

HoundsofDemos wrote:
the line of one sister falling was in the second edition codex.

Over time, I've challenged quite a few people to provide me with an exact quote and page number for that particular factoid. I've yet to get an answer.

For my personal take, with the WH40K canon policy being "it's all true, from a certain point of view", I personally think that many of these claims of incorruptibility actually take very much after the most famous "certain point of view". The first time Obi Wan tells that story, we would believe that Anakin Skywalker died, not that he fell to the Dark Side - because Obi Wan chooses to believe that he had ceased to be Anakin and had become Darth Vader.

In the Imperium, I could definitely see the same kind of technicality being involved (turn from the Emperor's light? You're not one of us any more), and then being buried under several tonnes of propaganda. For example, is Miriael Sabathiel really the only Sister of Battle to have willingly fallen... or is that just what they told the people they sent after her?

This kind of "probably not as true as it sounds" thing is particularly important to consider in WH40K, because with the background constantly being passed backwards and forwards between authors, things where one author may have intended someone to read between the lines have subsequently been referenced and restated far more matter-of-factly by later authors who missed that subtlety.
For example, the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Metamorphic Resonant Kinetics in its original appearance sounds considerably more dubious (if nothing else, it's there presented as a report by a member of the Adeptus Mechanicus - and their level of mechanical knowledge includes a belief that the reason a gun seizes if you don't oil it is not a) because of the lack of lubrication, but b) because it got angry) than when it's shown up again in later sources.

... the Obi-Wan story is nice, but ignores the reality that George Lucas re-wrote the story of Star Wars between one film and the next. In A New Hope, Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader weren't yet the same person, and Luke and Leia were not yet siblings (there's a 5 year age difference in the characters in ANH, with Luke being older than Leia!).

All that aside, the character of Sabathiel didn't appear in publication until almost a decade after the release of Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition), so I find the claim of her existence dating back so far to be... suspicious, at best.

 Psienesis wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:


Also: For the vast majority of Space Marines, such as those sent on the Abyssal Crusade, willingness does not factor into Chaos corruption. Their bodies get corrupted, and their minds follow regardless of whether or not the Marines actually wanted to fall, or not (it's a brainwashing technique, scream a lie in someone's face often enough, they'll start to believe it. It might take 10 tries, it might take 10 million tries, but it always works eventually). The same can be said of any SoB that has mutations, her body has been corrupted, and thus her mind will eventually follow.

... speaking of lies repeated so often they have been believed as true.

There may be a little bit of RP going on... just a little...

Not enough. The Imperium is a gak employer.

 MarcoSkoll wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
the line of one sister falling was in the second edition codex.

Over time, I've challenged quite a few people to provide me with an exact quote and page number for that particular factoid. I've yet to get an answer.

I own that book. It's not in there. That quote was on the Lexicanum for a while, which is why the story has propagated. The 2nd Edition Book doesn't say anything about Sisters falling to Chaos one way or the other. It neither admits it, nor nor denies it. Though, the omission cannot be seen as proof of immunity. The 2nd Edition Imperial Guard Codex makes no mention of any Imperial Guard units ever falling to Chaos either, lol.

The reality is that the idea of Sisters never falling to Chaos is a fan-based myth that has propagated by repetition. There are multiple examples of it happening in published GW material, and the only reason why it isn't a common topic in the fluff is because the Sisters themselves aren't a common topic in the fluff. There are no Chaos Sisters models, so there's no reason to write about them.

Psienesis wrote:... the Obi-Wan story is nice, but ignores the reality that George Lucas re-wrote the story of Star Wars between one film and the next.

That's actually what I was getting at how the WH40k-verse has been routinely handed backwards and forwards between authors who interpret it differently.

Maybe if you're talking about specifically the concept of "traitors are dead to me", but that's hardly a lynchpin in my argument - for my money, such claims are more likely to hinge on propaganda than technicality - not that the two are necessarily distinct. Turning someone into an unperson would be both propaganda and technicality.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I own that book. It's not in there. That quote was on the Lexicanum for a while, which is why the story has propagated.

As it happens, I'm the person who took it off Lexicanum. I challenged it because of a previous forum discussion (I forget which forum), and between myself, other forumites and Lexmechanics, no-one could find the reference, so I removed it.

But if someone can show I've completely missed it, tell me "Oh, yeah, it's actually in Codex Imperialis" or otherwise give the suggestion some legitimacy, I'm prepared to listen.

Soul drinkers turned to chaos because of a tzeenchian ruse.

The cursed founding was more a screw up of the terra/mechanicus that experimented with gene seed to make "improved" marines (i think the alpha legion is tho blame :p)
If i remember correctly it is rumored that one of these chapters turned into the legion of the damned.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 MarcoSkoll wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
the line of one sister falling was in the second edition codex.

Over time, I've challenged quite a few people to provide me with an exact quote and page number for that particular factoid. I've yet to get an answer.

I own that book. It's not in there. That quote was on the Lexicanum for a while, which is why the story has propagated. The 2nd Edition Book doesn't say anything about Sisters falling to Chaos one way or the other. It neither admits it, nor nor denies it. Though, the omission cannot be seen as proof of immunity. The 2nd Edition Imperial Guard Codex makes no mention of any Imperial Guard units ever falling to Chaos either, lol.

The reality is that the idea of Sisters never falling to Chaos is a fan-based myth that has propagated by repetition. There are multiple examples of it happening in published GW material, and the only reason why it isn't a common topic in the fluff is because the Sisters themselves aren't a common topic in the fluff. There are no Chaos Sisters models, so there's no reason to write about them.

The quote for only one Sister ever falling willingly to Chaos comes from a card game called Dark Millenium and further mentionned in a short story from Dan Abnett named Invitation (it's in a very crappy anthology) in which some Sisters try to bring back the said corrupted Sister back to the fold and get killed for their trouble. That's why it show up once in a while.

I think the lack of ATSNKF in 30k is more of a game mechanic, because if everyone had ATSKNF it'd make much of the morale system irrelevant.

Loken speaks of how the Marines even in 30k literally know no fear.

It's definitely true that the indoctrination became by far more strict. 40k Marines are ultraconservative zealots, 30k Marines were freethinkers.

With regards to Space Marines, in addition to half the original SM's, according to the 2007 CSM codex, ~50 full chapters have turned since then, and lots of smaller groups ranging from entire companies to individual marines.

As others have noted, Sisters fluff on the matter is thin. I think it's more just the fact that they simply don't get as much coverage from GW so the issue just never comes up.

But Space Marines? They have an awfully high rate of attrition, 50% of the original Legions, 5% of post Heresy chapters, and lots of smaller groups.

To be fair, those fifty were over a period of ten thousand years. That is such a long time that you'd struggle to even imagine it.

Yeah, given the fact that Chapters have been destroyed and lost over the ten thousand years, it's probably only like 2-3% most likely, not 5%, and the biggest chunk of the ones lost came from throwing a bunch of chapters into the Eye of Terror.

Which, given the fact that they lost fully half of the original Legions, is pretty impressive. Everyone scoffs at the Codex, but it improved Space Marine reliability by at least 1000%.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's definitely true that the indoctrination became by far more strict. 40k Marines are ultraconservative zealots, 30k Marines were freethinkers.

what's the basis of this belief? Cause I don't see 30k marines being anymore freethinking than their 40k counterparts.

epronovost wrote:
The quote for only one Sister ever falling willingly to Chaos comes from a card game called Dark Millenium and further mentionned in a short story from Dan Abnett named Invitation

I'm aware of those sources* - what I'm specifically concerned about is the claim that it's been in the background from a much earlier stage. I can say with some confidence that it's not in in the 2nd edition Sisters Codex, but if someone can demonstrate it's actually from some other 2nd edition (or RT) source I don't know of, that would be a different matter.

* There is a but.

I haven't got any of the Dark Millennium stuff, so can't comment on what that's like, but having read Invitation, I don't exactly think it's a concrete source:

'I knew this was impossible,' Curtz went on. 'Absolutely impossible. Your kind - forgive me, great lady - your kind are incorruptible. I made a careful study of the archives to reinforce my opinion. History shows us many horrors, but never a battle-sister fallen. That was when I realised it was a sham. Lunacy in fact. I suspected that it was matter of blasphemy.

... this hinges on the Regent being a reliable source, and to me, it sounds a lot like he's trying to convince himself (and also not find himself offending the Canoness and her bodyguards looming over him).

And given that only a few lines later we get told they're trying to cover the matter up...

'This must be contained. I am telling you nothing,' the canoness said. 'It is better that way. Throne knows, for all of us.'

... can we confidently take his opinion and search of the archives to be free of censorship?

Maybe others feel differently, but I see a lot of room between the lines here.