Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Quad stubber armed sentinels. Every squad has access to stubbers. Stubbers across the board.

Also, cavalry. I saw it was touched on earlier, and I'll second it. Mounted command squads, commisars, priests, etc. Mounted platoons....on horses, not vehicles. Give lots of options like the old tyranid mc. A build your own cavalry type of thing. Options for traditional rough riders, for more heavily armed cataphracts,knights. That type of thing. Options for shooting guys as well, dragoons? Some type of assault 2 or 3 las carbine or something like that.

For those who were interested and Doctrines and Customization stuff, I gave a shot at a system. It is a mix between Rites of War, Doctrines and Chapter Tactics, just tell me what you thinks about it folks.

Line Infantry: These men and women are hardened soldiers, used to face the enemy in massive battle and crush him thanks to sheer discipline and perfectly timed lasgun volleys.
- Close Order Drill: CCS, Infantry platoons, Veterans and Scions may use the Ld of an Officer in a radius of 12’’ for any test and may regroup with no penalties if under half strength.
- Sharpshooters: CCS, Infantry platoons, Veterans and Scions may reroll any 1 obtained when shooting with laser weapons (except LC).
o Restrictions: -1 Heavy Support slot, +1 Troops. No Thunderers, no Laser Destroyers.

Engineers / Siege Infantry: Such infantry is specialized in deadly engagements at close range, assaults on enemy fortification and heavy duty works on the field.
- Hand to hand fighters: CCS, Infantry platoons, Veterans and Scions have +1 WS and Furious Charge. Any model in these units may take Shotguns and 1 Demolition charge if they normally could not.
- Trench Warfare: when immobile, CCS, Infantry platoons, Veterans and Scions have +1 cover save added to any other cover bonus.
o Restrictions: -1 Heavy Support slot, +1 Elite. No Laser Destroyers, No RR, No Vulture.

Airborne Infantry: These soldiers are dropped behind enemy lines to attack supply lines and other strategic objectives before allied forces attack massively.
- From the Skies! : Any infantry embarked in a Valkyrie or a Vendetta can scatter with no penalties when arriving by Grav-Chute Insertion and may reroll a failed Reserves roll.
- Skilled Pilots: Any Vendettas, Vulture and Valkyries can take a Veteran Crew and have Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter USR.
o Restrictions: No Conscripts, No Heavy Support, +1 Elite, +2 Fast Attack.

Light Infantry: Light infantry is expert in quick raids, infiltrations and ambushes. They are precious in preparing combined arms operations because they often head from harsh worlds where they learnt how to survive in hostile environments.
- Skirmishers: CCS, Infantry platoons, Veterans and Scions always have the Dissimulation and Move Through Cover USR. They can’t take Carapace Armours (if they don’t already have them).
- Surprise attack! : Up to two Troops choices may choose to start the game as Infiltrators. If the Grand Strategist Warlord is issued, +1 unit may Outflank.
o Restrictions: No Conscripts, No Laser Destroyers and Thunderers. +1 Troops, +1 Fast Attack, -2 HS.

Mechanized Infantry: These soldiers are grenadiers that always ride their Chimeras on the battlefield. Rugged and tenacious, they like to engage their enemy at close range to better break its line.
- Armoured Fist: CCS, Infantry platoons, Veterans and Scions must take Chimeras and may take Carapace Armour for +1ppm whether they normally can or not. When disembarking, they all have Preferred Enemy until their next Shooting phase.
- Overcharged Engines: Any Chimera may decide to pass a Difficult Terrain test and go Flat out for 12’’ if successful.
o Restrictions: No Conscripts, No Laser Destroyers, -1 Heavy Support, +1 Troops.

Artillery Company: Such units regroup most of the ordnance the Imperial Guard is equipped with. They are able to destroy any foe at very long range thanks to their overwhelming firepower.
- Forward Artillery Controller: Any model equipped with a voxcaster may designate an enemy unit in a 24’’ range. Any artillery unit from the same detachment counts as Twin Linked when shooting at a marked enemy unit.
- Ordnance Coordination: Self-propelled artillery may take orders.
o Restrictions: No Laser Destroyers, No Vendetta/Vulture, 0-1 Leman Russ Sqd -1 Fast Attack, +1HS.

Armoured Company: Armoured companies epitomize the doctrine of the Imperial Guard; scores of huge Leman Russes advance relentlessly upon the enemy, crushing him under their tracks and firepower.
- Wall of Tanks: Leman Russes may be taken as Troops. One Leman Russ Sqd may be taken as Elite but each tank within must take a Veteran Crew.
- Master of Armoured Warfare: The Tank Commander may roll a D6 on Warlord Traits rather than the normal D3.
o Restrictions: No Conscripts, No CCS. 0-1 Infantry Platoon, 0-1 Artillery Battery of any kind.

Penal Legion / Civilian Levy: These units are drawn from Imperial civilians in dire times but also common low criminals and other marginalised scum. Needless to say, they are used as meat shields and sparsely equipped, meaning they don’t have more than a few hours of life left when thrown on the battlefield:
- Human waves: Conscripts have the Crusader USR and may use the Ld of any Officer in a 12’’ radius.
- Close Monitoring: Commissars and Priest may reroll one failed moral test per turn. A commissar may choose which model he wishes to execute.
o Restrictions: +3 Troops, +1 HQ, -1 Elites, -1 Fast Attack, -2 HS. No Scions and Vets, No Laser Destroyers, No Thunderers.

I think I covered the different aspect of the Guard quite fairly, plus each doctrine is clear and easy to use. The main problems would certainly be the internal balance and the comptability with formations. Those should just add their effect to the doctrines I made I guess, but that could result in a stack of rules that could be hard to follow. So, any thoughts people?

 RazgrizOne wrote:
For those who were interested and Doctrines and Customization stuff, I gave a shot at a system. It is a mix between Rites of War, Doctrines and Chapter Tactics, just tell me what you thinks about it folks.
Large block of text

I like it alot, it gives everyone a little bit of something! Well done RazgrizOne

I might have to steal this for my Guard army... really well done

Yes, these doctrines are good. They'll need play testing of course but I'm sure we're heading in the right direction.

In my defence for my own system however, I didn't think it was too complicated. It might need refining though; maybe one skill only. Pick a doctrine, and pick a skill. Boom, done. But I won't push this.

There is one thing I'm concerned with though. Do vet squads really overshadow platoons too much? A friend of mine thinks that they do. He says that they have more mobility and firepower for less cost. Anyone agree?

Future War Cultist, we could indeed include some sort of arborescence starting from regiment style (light, line, mechanized....). It could even be included in the system I depicted earlier.
It would give even more customization but also more complexity and it is not necessarly good since we still have to work on interactions of doctrines with formations.

Speaking about this, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be good to create an "all inclusive" solution, like :

Line Infantry: These men and women are hardened soldiers, used to face the enemy in massive battle and crush him thanks to sheer discipline and perfectly timed lasgun volleys. A Line Infantry army must take 1+ Line Infantry Formation and 1+ CAD.

Line Infantry Formation: (example) : 1 CCS, 2-5 infantry platoons, 1-3 Scions Platoon.
Bonuses:
- Close Order Drill: CCS, Infantry platoons, Veterans and Scions may use the Ld of an Officer in a radius of 12’’ for any test and may regroup with no penalties if under half strength.
- Sharpshooters: CCS, Infantry platoons, Veterans and Scions may reroll any 1 obtained when shooting with laser weapons (except LC).
Restrictions:
- Army composition : -1 Heavy Support slot, +1 Troops to any supplementary CAD. No Thunderers, no Laser Destroyers.

Not really sure about this, but that's an attempt.

I know my idea is pretty complicated, probably to the point that it's not workable. It sometimes drives me crazy. I just really want a way for an IG player to make their regiment(s) play to their fluff like they tried to do in the past.

Also, I don't believe in restrictions in the army unless it's tied to a specific formation. I would rather let the rules encourage the player to take certain units rather than forbid them from taking others. Nothing in the rules say that White Scars can't have Dreadnaughts for example. The chaos of battle can bring weird combinations of units together. That's the one thing I hated about the old doctrines; restricted units that had to be brought back with a point.

And I have a suggestion for an adjustment to Tank Orders:

Gunners, Kill On Sight!: The squadron immediately makes a shooting attack. Each vehicle in the squadron may fire one weapon at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting.

It's a sort of poor man's version of Power Of The Machine Spirit, and would hopefully encourage and reward the player for taking a big squadron of tanks, And it works well on both mixed weapon squadrons and single weapon squadrons as well as lone tanks. A Vanquisher for example could fire it's main gun at a tank whilst it's hull and sponson gunners hose down another unit.

I like a lot of what I am hearing; vet tank crews make so much sense, and vox extending the range on orders make them actually useful. Any chance that any of these might actually happen?

When I start playing games again soon I'm going to see if my opponent will let me play test these rules. He's my oldest and closest friend so it shouldn't be a problem.

And sorry to keep changing the subject but I think the balance between vet squads and infantry platoons needs to be addressed, because right now I think vet squads do it much better for a lot less.

The best way to do it I think is to adjust their prices so that they're more or less the same price. I would therefore drop the price of the PCS to 20pts, and the price of infantry and heavy weapon squads to 30pts each, and conscripts to 2pts each (40pts for a minimum sized squad then). So that a minimum sized bare bones platoon would cost 80pts. 20pts more than a vet squad but for that you're getting more than double the models, access to orders and the bonus of multiple squads. Meanwhile, the vets would be easier to transport and pack more firepower per head (increased BS and more special weapons). Now, after you buy the customary upgrades, say vox casters, auto cannons and grenade launchers, it should cost around 150pts. The same price as a vet squad with two plasma guns in a chimera. Now they're competitively matched in price, with the platoon being better for defence whilst the vets are better for attacking.

The way I see it, no other army has to buy multiple squads for a single FOC slot. Yes it has it's advantages, but I find that it's equally a burden as well. Especially in smaller games and when you're looking to transport it across the field.

If this sounds unfair just remember; they're only guardsmen. They can't fight in assault and they die to a stiff breeze. They typically need to outnumber their opponents 3-1 to win, but they cost half as much. See the issue?

@KayTwo : It will happen if you volunteer to playtest the codex after we have discussed what's good in it and what is not

@Future War Cultist:
I would be glad to hear about your gaming experience. What type of doctrine would you like to use? I have posted a version with formation but I'm not sure about its balance/quality.

I like your "choose a doctrine ; choose a skill". That would be easier than anything actually. I will try to think about this.

Regarding infantry, I like the attempt to streamline and balance, and it is what a good codex should seek. When reading your proposal, I really can't figure out if it would be good for the overall balance or if it would only reinforce the power of blob builds (they are kind of potent already). We would need playtest here.

@ RazgrizOne

Thank you! You're the first person anywhere who's given me a positive response to my system.

And since I have 4 Valkyries, I'd probably go for an Air Assault force. Not so much Paratroopers, more like Air Cavalry.

And the reduced price platoons would need play testing for sure. I ran some numbers though and when they currently go up against say, Space Marine Tactical Squads, Skitarii Vanguard Squads or Dark Eldar Warrior Squads, they die in huge numbers against both their shooting and melee attacks. We need 3 of them for every 1 of theirs.

I tried to take your proposition into account FWC and I obtained this arborescence that IMO presents the different possibilities in a better way.



Rules are still to be perfected and so would the coherency of the whole thing. We should rework this together to see whether this is too complicated or not.
Comments and appreciations are welcomed.
Oh, and I'll be testing the codex with the Line Infantry doctrine tonight. This is what I'm going to bring so far:

Imperial Guard (801)
HQ
CCS : radio-vox
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor : Mastery lvl1, Force weapon, 3 Servoskulls

Troops
Infantry squad : camo gear
Infantry squad : camo gear
Infantry squad : camo gear, 2 meltaguns

Elites
Scions sqd : 3 meltaguns, radio-vox

Fast Attack
Hellhound : Coaxial Storm bolter
RR sqd (6guys)
Armoured Sentinels : 2 LC

HS
Heavy Mortar Battery : 2 Heavy mortars carriage with crew.

And you? Would you have any list you would like to test (if you have no proposition of improvement)?

Sorry for the late reply. I've been really busy. Did you play that test game? How did it go?

This system looks pretty good by the way. Good way to kick things off.

Hi FWC, I'm equally sorry for the delay. Did not have much time to be in 40k the past few weeks.

Regarding the list, it was pretty brutal, maybe too much.

The combo Divination Inquisitor + blob + orders given at long distance murdered pretty much any standard infantry unit that came accross me. I played against AdMech + Grots Revolution.

This was even more hard for the other player since 2 S6 AP4 big plates fell each turn on his troops. I don't even talk about the high mobile units of my army (RR, hellhound and Sentinels) which did a great job at striking weak points.

Honestly, I felt a little bad when I played; I was expecting a harsh list from my opponent (as he always did since I play him) but he did not told me he was downgrading it. We ended up with very different lists with a clear power gap.
I think it might have distort my evaluation of the tested units but still, it was not a really nice moment for both of us.

Ah, I hate it when things like that happen. A shame really.

Was it the doctrines that did it or was it just the general imbalance in the armies?

In the meantime I had a long think about the doctrines. One thing I realised is that in the past those regiments that had the Hardened Fighters doctrine almost always had the light infantry doctrine has well. Tallarns, Catachans, Taneith etc. So how about we say that the hardened fighter doctrine gives the model +1 WS and the Move Through Cover special rule. In the case of the death korps, we can say that growing up on a radioactive hellhole riddled with trenches and mines and barb wire forces you to watch your step. It comes back to that common denominator thing we talked about. The nature of their home planet doesn't matter. All that matters is that it tried to kill them every step of the way and now they're more skilled because of it. So that's tallarns, catachans, Taneith and the death korps all summed up in one neat doctrine. You can then use a second doctrine to mix them up. Tallerans could have Sharpshooter, Catachans could have, I don't know, something jungle fightery, and the Death Korps can have Iron Discipline.

My numbers were quite huge for such format, but not impossible to handle. The thing is that my superiority was aggravated by the weaker build he brought. FYI, I have my own codex for the R.S.D, the guys I play, who basically have the same rules as the DKoK in terms of morale. So yes, we can say the doctrine did not help either.

I like the idea of hardened fighters, it is inclusive enough while staying quite unique. All we need is playtesting btw !