Switch Theme:

What would it take to truly balance 40k, both within and between Codexes?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 Grimmor wrote:
What you say is true, but the Daemon, SW and Ork Decurions are absolutely awful. But i see your point. If those books had been designed with MFDs in mind this wouldnt be an issue

The bonuses for the actual Decruion for Daemons especially, and SW's are really, really good! The problem is in the Core formations they're saddled with...

For Daemons, you simply need too many redundant units, due to every formation requiring an number of units equal to their relevant God's sacred number.
For Puppies, they need their pts adjusted to 7.5ed standards, while the 'named' Companies like the Daemon Core options, simply require too many base units.

 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





Martel732 wrote:
 Grimmor wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Chaos demons have powerful builds, though. Move Tau up, though.


Ya, like 2 of them. One is Tzeentch Summoning and the other is either the Screamstar or the Seekerstar and both of the last two are falling out of favor. And if we are fixing 40k Summoning has to go. Yes its cool and fluffy but its so god broken! You could fix it by letting you summon models that have been removed as a casualty, thereby preventing people from summoning like 500 points of free stuff.

Also ya, Tau can compete on SM and Necron teir


I'd keep summoning, but change the mechanics a lot.


The problem with summoning is that you could be playing a 1500 point game with over 2000 points of models, and that is not ok. Its why i hape the War Convo though not as much as the Gladius, as all the War Convo did is let you bring a Knight. If you strip the tax units (Ruststalkers, Infiltrators and the Dragoon) you just paid for that Knight. In the case of the Gladius, if you grab all Drop Pods you come out ahead like 200 points over the Tax units. In short your playing a 1500 point game with 1800 points of dudes. That is bad game design.

Experiment 626 wrote:

The bonuses for the actual Decruion for Daemons especially, and SW's are really, really good! The problem is in the Core formations they're saddled with...

For Daemons, you simply need too many redundant units, due to every formation requiring an number of units equal to their relevant God's sacred number.
For Puppies, they need their pts adjusted to 7.5ed standards, while the 'named' Companies like the Daemon Core options, simply require too many base units.


And thus they are bad Decurions. If your Core choices are so bad as to be unplayable, i dont care how good the bonuses are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/25 00:41:41


Warboss of da Blood Vipers!! We'z gonna crush ya good!!
ArchMagos Prime of Xenarite Exploratory Fleet Omega VIII
Sisters of the Remorseless Dawn- 4000pts
My Ork Errata: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664333.page
My Ork-Curion: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/680784.page#8470738 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Grimmor wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Chaos demons have powerful builds, though. Move Tau up, though.


Ya, like 2 of them. One is Tzeentch Summoning and the other is either the Screamstar or the Seekerstar and both of the last two are falling out of favor. And if we are fixing 40k Summoning has to go. Yes its cool and fluffy but its so god broken! You could fix it by letting you summon models that have been removed as a casualty, thereby preventing people from summoning like 500 points of free stuff.

Also ya, Tau can compete on SM and Necron teir


Demons placed what forth at LVO?

Power is different from variety
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





HoundsofDemos wrote:
Power is different from variety


Except its not even their power. Anyone with access to Maelific can do Summoning shenanigans, they just happen to be the best at it.

Warboss of da Blood Vipers!! We'z gonna crush ya good!!
ArchMagos Prime of Xenarite Exploratory Fleet Omega VIII
Sisters of the Remorseless Dawn- 4000pts
My Ork Errata: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664333.page
My Ork-Curion: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/680784.page#8470738 
   
Made in us
Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners




southern Ohio

Given that the point of this discussion is balancing the different factions, I'd say that summoning needs to go, because it's unfair when one faction can simply bring in more units above the agreed point limit, and I don't see any way of balancing that.
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





 Bill1138 wrote:
Given that the point of this discussion is balancing the different factions, I'd say that summoning needs to go, because it's unfair when one faction can simply bring in more units above the agreed point limit, and I don't see any way of balancing that.


Thats why i recommended changing it from bring in brand new units, to bring back models that have been removed as casualties. Other armies already do this (Retribution Phalanx for Crons, Skyblight for Nids) and while you can do it whenever you want, it has more risk than the other two.

Warboss of da Blood Vipers!! We'z gonna crush ya good!!
ArchMagos Prime of Xenarite Exploratory Fleet Omega VIII
Sisters of the Remorseless Dawn- 4000pts
My Ork Errata: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664333.page
My Ork-Curion: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/680784.page#8470738 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






Fix the core of the game and work up from there and all the armies at the same time instead of individually and isolated.

There are a lot of problems and interaction issues like allies and the differences between vehicles and MC and even psychic powers

Personally think allies, D weapons, super heavies and some other stuff should be unlocked through Taxs or formations.

cover and fliers i feel need some tuning.

And all codexs need to be redone at the same time by the same person with no bias towards one side or the other.

It still wont be perfect but it would be closer.

Edit: Oh and a re tuning of the combat system. things like why on earth do you cap off at a 3+ to hit, and charging distances and movement penalties need to be fixed. its a lot of penalties over just shooting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/25 01:04:22


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 Grimmor wrote:


Experiment 626 wrote:

The bonuses for the actual Decruion for Daemons especially, and SW's are really, really good! The problem is in the Core formations they're saddled with...

For Daemons, you simply need too many redundant units, due to every formation requiring an number of units equal to their relevant God's sacred number.
For Puppies, they need their pts adjusted to 7.5ed standards, while the 'named' Companies like the Daemon Core options, simply require too many base units.


And thus they are bad Decurions. If your Core choices are so bad as to be unplayable, i dont care how good the bonuses are.

Except they're not actively bad, they're simply not quite as efficient as the best of the best. (aka: Gladius/Lion's Blade of 'free transports for all!')

Khorne can spam the crap out of Flesh Hounds - one of the single best units in the Daemon codex.
Tzeentch can spam Exalted Flamers & min-sized Flamers, with only 3 'tax' unit of Horrors for WC generation. And suddenly they're also throwing around S7 Witchfires!
Nurgle can spam min-sized Nurgling swarms for table control, (due to Infiltrate), and a single larger unit of FnP Plaguebearers.
Slaanesh is the only big loser, as you really, really don't want 6 units of 'Nettes/Fiends.

The Auxiliaries are frankly disgustingly good between the Slaanesh Chariot fest (that also includes a Seekerstar), a single cheap unit of Furies, and/or the Grinder formation... Then just flavour with big boys and/or pad out your Heralds with a small CAD.

I'm actually pretty confident that within a couple of months, we'll be inundated here about how Daemons and our suddenly declared OP new stuff from CotW is yet again, the "death of competitive 40k." (because there's really no hate quite like Daemon hate!)



 Bill1138 wrote:
Given that the point of this discussion is balancing the different factions, I'd say that summoning needs to go, because it's unfair when one faction can simply bring in more units above the agreed point limit, and I don't see any way of balancing that.

I'll agree to give up my Summoning, (which is full of risk and prevents me from using all kinds of other abilities), when Marines agree to pay for their damn transports!
Summoning is what Daemons get in place of equally obnoxious crap like Superfriends(tm), free transports, Scatbikes/Wraithknights, sharing Markerlights, etc...

Take that away from us, while everyone else gets to keep their toys and you're just saying that Daemons players aren't allowed to have nice things because you hate Chaos players being able to compete.

 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





Experiment 626 wrote:


Khorne can spam the crap out of Flesh Hounds - one of the single best units in the Daemon codex.
Tzeentch can spam Exalted Flamers & min-sized Flamers, with only 3 'tax' unit of Horrors for WC generation. And suddenly they're also throwing around S7 Witchfires!
Nurgle can spam min-sized Nurgling swarms for table control, (due to Infiltrate), and a single larger unit of FnP Plaguebearers.
Slaanesh is the only big loser, as you really, really don't want 6 units of 'Nettes/Fiends.

The Auxiliaries are frankly disgustingly good between the Slaanesh Chariot fest (that also includes a Seekerstar), a single cheap unit of Furies, and/or the Grinder formation... Then just flavour with big boys and/or pad out your Heralds with a small CAD.

I'm actually pretty confident that within a couple of months, we'll be inundated here about how Daemons and our suddenly declared OP new stuff from CotW is yet again, the "death of competitive 40k." (because there's really no hate quite like Daemon hate!)


Khorne doesnt care cuz he has Daemonkin. The Exalted Flamers are hosed cuz its weapon is Heavy so they can't move on top of that who care about Witchfires? Witchfires suck. Especially Tzeentchs "Lets hand out FnP" "GENIUS!!!"

Nurgle and Slaanesh get by because they need less and Nurgle doesnt mind bringin that many bodies. Ya Slaanesh is annoyed but they've also got the cheapest core an I 5 Rending isn't awful, plus Seekerstar. Slaaneshes biggest draw is that you can run it without the other gods, thus making Warpstorm better for you.

I have no confidence that we will here how "amazing" that hot mess is, because, frankly, the Tzeentch CAD is doing better with much less waste.

Warboss of da Blood Vipers!! We'z gonna crush ya good!!
ArchMagos Prime of Xenarite Exploratory Fleet Omega VIII
Sisters of the Remorseless Dawn- 4000pts
My Ork Errata: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664333.page
My Ork-Curion: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/680784.page#8470738 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight




To balance the game, they need to figure out a fair cost for each unit, and extensively test it. Then, get rid of or limit allies and get rid of formation buffs entirely. The current balance problems in the game stem from units that are poorly costed (scatterbikes, wraithknights) and units that are buffed well beyond their points costs (thunderwolves, grav cents).

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
Made in us
Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners




southern Ohio

Experiment 626 wrote:
 Bill1138 wrote:
Given that the point of this discussion is balancing the different factions, I'd say that summoning needs to go, because it's unfair when one faction can simply bring in more units above the agreed point limit, and I don't see any way of balancing that.

I'll agree to give up my Summoning, (which is full of risk and prevents me from using all kinds of other abilities), when Marines agree to pay for their damn transports!
Summoning is what Daemons get in place of equally obnoxious crap like Superfriends(tm), free transports, Scatbikes/Wraithknights, sharing Markerlights, etc...

Take that away from us, while everyone else gets to keep their toys and you're just saying that Daemons players aren't allowed to have nice things because you hate Chaos players being able to compete.

Perhaps you missed this, but the point of this thread is getting as many rational people as I can to voice their opinions as to how best fix the game's balance.

Last I checked, Space Marines still had to pay points for their transports, so your snarky ultimatum doesn't make much sense, especially since no one is proposing taking the daemons' toys away from them. The suggestion was to rebuild all of the Codexes from the ground-up, so they're all balanced, without the need to bring in extra units above the agreed point limit.
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





If we're gonna talk Daemon specific fixes i would like my 4e Pink Horros back, you know the ones that had a shooting attack that wasn't trash? Other than that im not sure, the Daemon codex is weird as its so focused on melee, but not super good at it unless you're Khorne, i mean Nurgle gets by on sheer durability but Slaanesh is kinda sitting in the cold having to rely on Rending.

Really that Codex needs a ground up overhaul.

Warboss of da Blood Vipers!! We'z gonna crush ya good!!
ArchMagos Prime of Xenarite Exploratory Fleet Omega VIII
Sisters of the Remorseless Dawn- 4000pts
My Ork Errata: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664333.page
My Ork-Curion: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/680784.page#8470738 
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 Grimmor wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:


Khorne can spam the crap out of Flesh Hounds - one of the single best units in the Daemon codex.
Tzeentch can spam Exalted Flamers & min-sized Flamers, with only 3 'tax' unit of Horrors for WC generation. And suddenly they're also throwing around S7 Witchfires!
Nurgle can spam min-sized Nurgling swarms for table control, (due to Infiltrate), and a single larger unit of FnP Plaguebearers.
Slaanesh is the only big loser, as you really, really don't want 6 units of 'Nettes/Fiends.

The Auxiliaries are frankly disgustingly good between the Slaanesh Chariot fest (that also includes a Seekerstar), a single cheap unit of Furies, and/or the Grinder formation... Then just flavour with big boys and/or pad out your Heralds with a small CAD.

I'm actually pretty confident that within a couple of months, we'll be inundated here about how Daemons and our suddenly declared OP new stuff from CotW is yet again, the "death of competitive 40k." (because there's really no hate quite like Daemon hate!)


Khorne doesnt care cuz he has Daemonkin. The Exalted Flamers are hosed cuz its weapon is Heavy so they can't move on top of that who care about Witchfires? Witchfires suck. Especially Tzeentchs "Lets hand out FnP" "GENIUS!!!"

Nurgle and Slaanesh get by because they need less and Nurgle doesnt mind bringin that many bodies. Ya Slaanesh is annoyed but they've also got the cheapest core an I 5 Rending isn't awful, plus Seekerstar. Slaaneshes biggest draw is that you can run it without the other gods, thus making Warpstorm better for you.

I have no confidence that we will here how "amazing" that hot mess is, because, frankly, the Tzeentch CAD is doing better with much less waste.

Exalted Flamers are fine playing the role of 50pts 'gun turret'. D3/S10 shots per when you can run 4-5+ of the buggers is capable of focus firing down pretty much any non-FMC/GMC.
While normally the Tzeentch Witchfires don't amount to much, with the (mandatory) Exalted Locus Tzherald, they suddenly become S7 with the formation. That's definitely a nice tool for going Razorback hunting, especially considering that GSF right now is a huge problem for Daemons in general.

It's not Gladius good. But it's not complete trash either. Going completely 'bare bones', you can run;
Tzherald w/Lv3, Exalt Locus, Paradox
3x 11 Pink Horrors
6x Exalted Flamers
= 742pts

Spend the rest of your pts on a Greater, and then Grinders/Slaany auxiliary formation.

It actually looks to have some serious potential, especially with a guaranteed automatic Summoning per turn!

 
   
Made in us
Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners




southern Ohio

What if for all of the Codexes we start by objectively applying point values (or modifiers) for every stat-line, ability, and piece of wargear in the game, so that every unit for every faction has its points calculated the same way?

ex:
Each Stat Line has a base cost (stat lines normal for grunts would cost less than those typically seen only on HQs)
Each Armor type has a base cost, with a modifier based on the model's Toughness and number of Wounds.
Each Melee weapon has a base cost, with a modifier based on the model's Strength and number of Attacks.
Each Ranged weapon has a base cost, with a modifier based on the model's Ballistic Skill
etc.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




That doesn't work because of synergistic stats. Each combination has to be empirically determined.
   
Made in us
Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners




southern Ohio

Martel732 wrote:
That doesn't work because of synergistic stats. Each combination has to be empirically determined.

Care to clarify? If a unit has (Ws4, Bs4, S4, T4, W1, I4, A1, Ld8), that should have the same value in any army. The extra wargear and abilities would all have costs/modifiers which reflect how they interact.
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

For starters, a master points-cost list to compare everything with.

i.e. the base statline for infantry (4s all around, LD8 1 attack) starts at 6pts. Lowering 1 stat by 1 brings them down to a 5pt (2 for 4pts etc). Increasing it bumps their price by 2 per stat point. Armor is free, 1pt, 2pts, 4pts, 6pts, 12pts for a 6+ 5+ 4+ 3+ and 2+ respectively.
Im not going to go into massive detail but i think i got the point across. Theres a massive point differential between codexes right now on some units because there is no inner point-cost system like this, as a result we get crap like 16pt Burna Boyz for some god awful reason.

It would be a very large list and would take a lot of playtesting to balance it right, but it would give one hell of a foundation. The main problem is finding the points gap for some stats (such as 2+ armor being vastly better than 3+ for only 1 digit difference) and justifying codex-specific rules and wargear costs (not reworded close combat weapons either, i mean crap like special guns or such)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/25 05:02:59


An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in us
Implacable Black Templar Initiate




Colorado

I would base everything off fluff and what it was meant to truly do in the world of 40k. And use a D10 system to get proper ratios and Stat representation. Also get rid of the core special rules and give rule as such to unit on a as needed basis. Special rules are slowing the game down I think.

7000+ 2500 +
2000 10000 + 3000 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Bill1138 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
That doesn't work because of synergistic stats. Each combination has to be empirically determined.

Care to clarify? If a unit has (Ws4, Bs4, S4, T4, W1, I4, A1, Ld8), that should have the same value in any army. The extra wargear and abilities would all have costs/modifiers which reflect how they interact.


Strength is more valuable on a unit with higher WS. Identical stat lines should cost the same, but almost nothing has identical stat lines.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






Ffyllotek wrote:
Given that the 'worst' armies at the moment are the hoard based armies, (ignore CSM for now)... i'd rank the codex 'powers' as follows:

Eldar
Necron, Space Marine, Chaos Demons,
Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, Tau
Blood Angels, Space Wolves,
Imperial guard, Orks, Chaos Marines (ignore for now)

Those with the most expensive models on average sit at the top, the cheapest models on average at the bottom (pretty linear?). Therefore, the simplist solution, seems to be to reduce every model by 1 pt. This would greatly benefit orks and imperial guard, and hardly impact the top armies whatsoever.

What we do for CSM not sure.



You forgot about Tyranids. Then again, so did GW.

2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





 EnTyme wrote:
You forgot about Tyranids. Then again, so did GW.


Im not even sure where id put Nids in a power list. I mean they are better off than Orks and CSm, thats for sure, as Shield of Baal actually gave them fairly useful Formations. Lictoshame is still viable, Skyblight is good and Penta Flyrant is still horrifying,. On top of this Warrior spam is coming back. Despite all this Nids are still in a weird spot and most of their Troops are just lousy, now if Genestealers had a 4+ armor......

Warboss of da Blood Vipers!! We'z gonna crush ya good!!
ArchMagos Prime of Xenarite Exploratory Fleet Omega VIII
Sisters of the Remorseless Dawn- 4000pts
My Ork Errata: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664333.page
My Ork-Curion: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/680784.page#8470738 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






 Grimmor wrote:
 EnTyme wrote:
You forgot about Tyranids. Then again, so did GW.


Im not even sure where id put Nids in a power list. I mean they are better off than Orks and CSm, thats for sure, as Shield of Baal actually gave them fairly useful Formations. Lictoshame is still viable, Skyblight is good and Penta Flyrant is still horrifying,. On top of this Warrior spam is coming back. Despite all this Nids are still in a weird spot and most of their Troops are just lousy, now if Genestealers had a 4+ armor......


We'll have to see what GW does with the (allegedly) upcoming Deathwatch v. Genestealers campaign.

2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





They need to eliminate codex cycles.

It should just be 1 big release each edition. Each faction getting a few new units or existing models getting major rules overhauls redefining their roles. This way no army gets totally left in the dust like Sisters of Battle.

If they did proper marketing research, they can eliminate formations by firguring what did not sell so well last edition and retooling those models to have a flavor of the edition spin. Or hell just make those units under costed in points but remain the same price.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 Vineheart01 wrote:
For starters, a master points-cost list to compare everything with.

i.e. the base statline for infantry (4s all around, LD8 1 attack) starts at 6pts. Lowering 1 stat by 1 brings them down to a 5pt (2 for 4pts etc). Increasing it bumps their price by 2 per stat point. Armor is free, 1pt, 2pts, 4pts, 6pts, 12pts for a 6+ 5+ 4+ 3+ and 2+ respectively.
Im not going to go into massive detail but i think i got the point across. Theres a massive point differential between codexes right now on some units because there is no inner point-cost system like this, as a result we get crap like 16pt Burna Boyz for some god awful reason.

It would be a very large list and would take a lot of playtesting to balance it right, but it would give one hell of a foundation. The main problem is finding the points gap for some stats (such as 2+ armor being vastly better than 3+ for only 1 digit difference) and justifying codex-specific rules and wargear costs (not reworded close combat weapons either, i mean crap like special guns or such)


This, a million times, as it's basically what GW did in Rogue Trader for coming you with your own army.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




well, here are MY latest houserules
Spoiler:
• A roll of 6 on the Destroyer table does d3+3 hull points or wounds instead of d6+6. Saves may not be taken.
o Destroyer weapons do not roll on the vehicle damage chart in addition to the Destroyer table against non superheavy vehicles.
• Beasts may embark on the transports normally, but may not move more than 6” when disembarking.
• Any model that is a character in a unit receives 1 additional wound as well as any other benefits, to a max of 3W. Codex Eldar, Skitarii, and Harlequins do not gain this benefit.
• Custom units created with the V.D.R. may be used, but the stats should be run by your opponent and Tony beforehand for approval.
• Storm bolters may be fired as a heavy 3 weapon instead of assault 2. The heavy 3 option may not be used for snapshots.
• Monstrous Creatures only get cover if 25% obscured or more.
• All missile launchers gain their flakk equivalent upgrade for free if available.
• Stealth: Models that target units with the stealth usr with ranged attacks take a -1 penalty to their Ballistic skill. This replaces the normal benefit.
• Shrouded: Models that target units with the shrouded usr with ranged attacks take a -2 penalty to their Ballistics skill. This replaces the normal benefit.
• Smoke launchers may be used when the unit equipped with it is targeted. This replaces the normal benefit (still one use only)
• Ignores Cover: Units with this special rule don’t take the B.S. penalty for firing at units with the stealth or shrouded special rules. This is in addition to the normal benefit.
• Models with the relentless and slow and purposeful rules as well as all vehicles do not ignore the range penalty for moving and firing weapons with the salvo special rule
• Any unit attacking a unit under the benefit of the “invisibility” psychic power are treated as having failed a blind test, even if they would normally be immune. This replaces the normal benefit.
• Psyckers in a unit are treated as independent models for the purposes of casting powers and generating warp charges
• Flying monstrous creatures that arrive via deepstrike may choose to be swooping or gliding when they arrive.
• Vehicles with the “heavy” type ignore the penalties for firing ordinance weapons
• Non superheavy walkers may add 2 to the maximum unit size listed in their entries unless they are unique units. All walkers may add 2 to their attack profile. Codexes released from the necron codex and after do not gain this benefit.
• Poison and sniper weapons take no penalty to wounding gargantuan creatures
• Weapons with the “primary” special rule ignore a weapon destroyed result inflicted against them on a 4+
• Super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures that use the “smash” ability to trade their attacks for a single attack treat that single attack as strength D instead of the normal benefits
• If a superheavy vehicle or gargantuan monstrous creature is a transport, it is always considered an assault transport.
• Superheavy vehicles take damage from the vehicle damage table with the following changes
o Ignore the crew shaken and crew stunned result
o Immobilized results lower their speed by half. Multiple immobilized results do not lower this further, but do add the extra hullpoint loss as normal
• If a unit is embarked in a transport and is subject to the “no escape” rule, the unit inside may use any invulnerable save available to the transport.
• Haywire weapons have the following effect, do not roll for armor penetration as you normally would. When a vehicle is hit with a weapon with the haywire special rule, roll 1d6 and consult the following table
o 1: no effect
o 2-5: the vehicle suffers a grew shaken result on the vehicle damage table
o 6: the vehicle suffers from a penalty rolled on the vehicle damage table
These effects do not cause hullpoint loss. This replaces the normal benefit
*ordinance weapons cause d3 wounds instead of one versus monstrous creatures.
*ap1 weapons that successfully wound a monstrous creature may roll to wound that creature again. This does not trigger on the second roll.
Chaos Space Marines
• Aspiring champions and Aspiring Sorcerers can take terminator armor for 15 points.
• When a character from the army issues or accepts a challenge, roll on the Chaos Boon Table immediately (instead of afterward). Ibf the character is fighting in a challenge with a unique character, add +1 to the tens dice for determining the Boon (max of 6).
• If your Warlord is an HQ or Lord of War and has purchased a mark from the Chaos Gods, then a single troop unit from this Codex gains the same mark for free. This troop may not have more than one mark, and if the warlord has multiple marks the player chooses which is given before deployment.
• Rhinos may take assault ramps as an upgrade for 10 points. This makes them assault vehicles
• Abbadon is a Lord of War.
• Rhinos may be selected as a fast attack choice.
• If a character becomes a Daemon Prince via the Dark Apotheosis it retains any wargear options that the Demon Prince could have chosen.
• If a model with daemonic possession would consume a vehicle it is transporting, that vehicle suffers a glancing hit instead.
• Ahriman may take powers from the divination school
• Use the basic stat line for rhino based tanks you already have access to from the codex spacemarine book. Your optional upgrades remain the same.
• All units that begin the game in terminator armor have their points reduced by 5 each

Chaos Daemons
• If your entire army is composed of daemons with the same Daemonic alignment you may treat a roll of 7 on the warpstorm as the attack power associated with your god.
• Fateweaver is a Lord of War.
• The flickering fire psychic power gains the number of shots listed based on how many warp charges were successfully harnessed when firing the power.
• Daemons of tzeench gain a +1 bonus when attempting to cast a psychic power (meaning they normally harness a warp charge on a 3+)
• Daemons gain a +1 bonus when attempting to cast psychic powers from their gods psychic discipline

Eldar
• Eldar jetbikes only give a 4+ armor save
• Scatterlasers have a 24” range
• Eldar missile launchers have a 36” range
• Warp Spiders may only use their flicker jump special rules once per player turn and may not use it against overwatch.
• The warlock conclave does not generate warp charges based on its mastery level.

Dark Eldar
• Hellions can use their jump packs in the movement and assault phase.
• Wyches get their agile invulnerable save during the assault phase, (not just the combat sub phase) and may disembark from transports that moved cruising speed.
• Units equipped with combat drugs count the turn as being one higher on the power from pain table
• If an hq unit with the independent character rule has the option for a venom as a dedicated transport, the venom gains the “chariot” type and has their transport capacity reduced to 1. (invulnerable saves purchased/ used by the character do not confer to the transport)
• Named characters from the 5th edition codex may be used for the point totals listed with the following changes.
o Asdrubael Vect: has the labyrinthine cunning warlord trait and an additional roll on any warlord trait table in the BRB
o Lady Malys: roll twice on the warlord trait table in the dark elder codex
o Duke Ssliscus: has the towering arrogance warlord trait. He also grants a reroll for scatter for any venom, raider, or ravager that enters play from deepstrike reserves
o Baron Sarthonix: has the soul thirst warlord trait and doesn’t change the position of hellions in the force organization chart

Tyranids
• Tyranid prime has an additional wound and may take wings (changing its type to jump infantry) for 10 points.
• Models that have the instinctive behavior rule that are within Range of a synapse creature gain a +1 to feel no pain (6+ feel no pain if they did not already have the rule)
• The Swarmlord is a Lord of War and grants the swarmleader benefit to all models within 18”
• Gene stealers have stealth.
• Shadows in the warp cause all enemy psykers to manifest psychic powers at a -1 penalty (normally 5+) in addition to the penalty to Leadership.
• Pyrovores breath weapon gains the torrent special rule

Adepta Sorroritas
• Saint Celestine is a Lord of War.
• Canoness is 5 points cheaper.
• Sisters Repentia gain Crusader.
• The Rhino and Immolator may be selected as fast attack options.
• The penitent engine has hatred.
• The exorcist fires snapshots at BS2 and may be fielded in units of 1-3

Astra Militarum
• Commisar Yarick is a Lord of War.
• Chimera, Taurox and Taurox Primes may be selected as fast attack choices.
• When a conscript unit is removed as a casualty, an identical unit goes into ongoing reserve on a 4+.
• The taurox prime has the command vehicle trait
• Rough riders have an additional wound each
• Vox casters give the following benefit: if a command squad and the target of an order it is issuing are both equipped with vox casters, add 12 inches to the maximum command range and the units do not require line of sight
• Tempestas scion units have one higher leadership

Militarum Tempestas
• Any unit embarked in a flyer chosen from this detachment, and any units placed in deep strike reserves may begin arriving from reserves starting in turn one. They must be rolled for normally.
• Gain all the relevant bonuses listed above

Orks
• Cybork body gives a +1 to feel no pain rolls (or a 6+ feel no pain, if the model doesn’t already have feel no pain).
• Kustom Megadreds from Forgeworld have 4 hull points instead of 3.
• Lootas may take a looted wagon as a dedicated transport.
• Boss nobz are Ld8 instead of 7
• All non superheavy walkers that don’t have the “cowardly grots” rule gain “ ‘ere we go!” rule

blood angels, spacewolves, and grey knights
• Use the basic stat line for rhino based tanks you already have access to from the codex spacemarine book. Your optional upgrades remain the same. Baal predators gain the same squadron size and benefit as predators and may be fielded in units of up to 3.
• Spacewolf dreadnaughts gain counter attack. Blood angel dreadnaughts gain furious charge.
• All units that begin the game in terminator armor have their points reduced by 5 each
• Blood angel scouts use the stat line and point values from codex spacemarine
• Wolfscouts gain stealth

Necrons
• The canoptic harvest formation gives feel no pain instead of reanimation protocols
• Necron wraiths are toughness 4



and an errata for point totals on most vehicles and monstrous creatures in the game

Spoiler:
Eratta
tyranids

• Monstrous biocannons have their point costs changed to the following: twinlinked devourer with brainleach worms 25 points. Twin linked deathspitter, same. Stranglethorn cannon, 10 points. Heavy venom cannon, 15 points
• Hive tyrants point total raises to 185 points
• Old one eye is now 140 points
• Tervigon becomes 155 points
• Haruspex becomes 120 points
• Harpy becomes150 points
• Hive crone stays the same
• Carnifex becomes 86 points
• Trygon becomes 170
• Trygon prime becomes205 points
• Mawlock becomes 140 points
• Exocrine becomes 105 points
• Tyrannofex becomes 105 points and the upgrade to rupture cannon only costs 5 points
• Barbed hierodule: 477 points
• Harridan: 644 points
• Hierophant biotitan: the titanfield becomes a 3+ invul save



Astra militarum
• Baneblade: 485 points
• Banehammer: 348 points
• Banesword: 420 points
• Doomhammer: 395 points
• Hellhammer:530 points
• Shadowsword: 365
• Stormlord: 470
• Stormsword: 475
• Manticor 135
• Leman russ
o battletank 125
o exterminator 140
o vanquisher 125
o eradicator 145
o demolisher 145
o punisher 125
o executioner 145
• wyvern 90
• basilisk 90
• hellhound 95
• devildog 90
• banewolf 100
• hydra (add interceptor to hydra autocannon) 75
• chimera 65
• taurox 55
• taurox prime (add command vehicle) 85
• scout sentinel 35
• armored sentinel 35
• fortress of arrogance 815

spacemarines
• Thunderhawk gunship: 588
• Vindicator 95
• Predator 75
• Rhino 35
• Land raider 255
• Drop pod 40
• Dreadnaught (4A base) 100
• Razorback 55
• Landspeeder 50
• Landspeeder storm 60
• Whirlwind 55
• Land raider crusader 250
• Land raider redeemer 245
• Stormraven 240
• Stormtalon 130
• Hunter
• stalker

Spacewolves
• Bjorn the fell handed (5A base) 200
• Murderfang (4A base) 135
• Stormwolf 235
• Stormfang 205

Grey knights
• Nemesis dreadknight (av 12/12/11 with 4 HP) 160

Titan legions
• Reaver battle titan 627, choose two weapons from the following list
o Titan powerfist 82
o Gattling blaster 210
o Laserblaster 245
o Melta cannon 250
o Volcano cannon 365
Choose one weapon from the following list
o Apocalypse missile launcher 85
o Vortex missile 85
o Vulcan mega bolter 130
o Double barrel turbolaser destructor 190
o Plasma blastgun 290
o Inferno gun 235
• Warhound titan 372, choose two weapons from the following list
o Vulcan megabolter 130
o Double barrel turbolaser destructor 190
o Plasma blastgun 290
o Inferno gun 235

Chaos marines
(with this setup, monstrous creatures with the “demonforge” rule lose a wound instead of a hullpoint when they roll a “1” after activation, explode when they lose their last wound just like a vehicle would due to an explodes result, and are allowed to fire one more weapon than usual when shooting)
• Khorne Lord of Skulls: add gaze of pain (24’ S10 ap1 heavy 2) init 4, and 3 hullpoints
• Forge fiend (becomes a monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness7 3+ save) 165
• Maulerfiend (becomes a monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness7 3+ save) 140
• Defiler (becomes a monstrous creature with 5 wounds @ toughness7 3+ save) 195
• Helldrake (becomes a flying monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness7 3+ save) 175
• Daemon prince 105
• Hellbrute (4A base) 100
• Land raider 250
• Vindicator 95
• Predator 75
• Rhino 35


Chaos daemons
• Skarbrand 225
• Kairos Fateweaver 300
• Kugath the plaguefather 190
• Lord of change 210
• Great unclean one 145
• Keeper of secrets 190
• Daemon prince 105
• Blood throne of khorne 80
• Soulgrinder (t7, 2+ 5w monstrous creature) 140
• Skullcannon of khorne 100
• Burning chariot of tzeench 45
• Seeker chariot of slaanesh 35
• Exalted seeker chariot of slaanesh 60
• Hellflayer of slaanesh 40


orks
• Gargantuan squigoth: 390 points
• Trukk 35
• Dakkajet 90
• Burnabommer 105
• Blitzabommer 125
• Warbuggies 25
• Battlewagon 95 killkannon is 15 points
• Deffdread (add “’ere we go!” power klaw upgrades are 5 points each) 80
• Killa kans 40
• Gorkanaught (6hp superheavy walker gains effigy rule from stompa) 270
• Morkanaught (6 HP superheavy walker gains effigy rule from stompa) 260
• Stompa 760
• Big mek stompa 785
• Kustom battle fortress 420

Eldar
• Waveserpent 125
• Crimson hunter 135
• Vyper 40
• Hemlock wraithfighter 185
• Falcon 140
• Fireprism 125
• Nightspinner 100
• War walker 60
• wraithlord 120
• wraithknight (wraithcannons) 380
• wraithknight (“sword and board”) 425
• wraithknight (suncannon) 360
• avatar of khaine 210
• Phantom titan: 1050 points and may add phantom pulsars (424 each) phantom D-cannon (330 each), or the phantom ccw (170)
• Revenant titan: 950 points

Dark eldar
• Raider 60
• Venom 60
• Razorwing jetfighter 110
• Ravager 100
• Voidraven bomber 140
• Talos pain engine 115
• Chronos parasite engine 90


Harlequins
• Starweaver 70
• Voidweaver 70


necrons
• Transcendent C’tan (apocalypse): use statline from apocalypse, ignore powers printed in apocalypse; use the greater power of the C’tan list from codex Necrons. Price for unit is 475 points
• Catacomb command barge 110(+overlord)
• Triarch stalkers 125
• C’tan shard of the nightbringer 225
• Ctan shard of the deceiver 215
• Nightscythe 125
• Doomscythe 135
• Ghost ark 150
• Canoptic spyder 55
• Monolith 235
• Doomsday ark 190
• Annihilation barge 115
• Trancendant C’tan (codex) 190
• Tesseract vault 500
• Obelisk 400


Tau empire
• Ghostkeel 140
• Riptide 175
• Piranhas 45
• Devilfish 80
• Sunshark bomber 125
• Razorshark 100
• Hammerhead 105
• Skyray 160
• Stormsurge (av13/13/12 open topped superheavy walker with 8hp) 390

Imperial knights
• Paladin 350
• Errant 365
• Crusader 395
• Warden 400
• Galant 330


This was done using a system I've been refining for the over a year now, my goal is to make vehicles and monstrous creatures balanced more effectively against one another and the infantry running around them. Any codex not listed there was unavailable to me for a while, or i simply forgot to check it for special vehicles. same with any vehicles, it was a lot of work, I know I missed stuff!

Edit: forgot to add my rules for ap1 and ordinance weapons in regards to their effect against monstrous creatures.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/02/28 05:34:44


   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran




Canada

you would need to do a lot, the BRB would need to serious re-write itself to make cc and shooting more even, wed need to lock back up the pandroas box that is stregnth d and apocalypse units. we can then work on other things more focused on army books and the way they make there armies or the way things mechanically work in their armies. to be upfront a lot of the stuff in codecies for 7th edition has been really phoned in. either they were try harding the feth out of writing the book or they didnt put any effort at all and put out a piece of rotten grok meat on a tin tray and expected us to like it.

40k as a whole is a mess and the effort required would be greater then any one of us could achieve.

and then youd need to playtest all of it so theres probably even more changes that need to come out of this. 40k has sadly become a bloated old man, with a massive hernia and blindness, and bad hands from sugar diabetus. the sad part is it didnt need to be this way, but a company over there in nottingham lost sight of making a game fun for anyone and making some of the money some of the time in a quest to make all the money right away. they sold our games soul to the immortal dollar and have filled the void with a garbadge can full of waste


DA army: 3500pts,
admech army: 600pts
ravenguard: 565 pts

 
   
Made in us
Grey Knight Purgator firing around corners




southern Ohio

On the topic of completely re-working the core rules, on top of releasing re-written and re-balanced versions of all Codexes... What if instead of having Wound models and AV models, and so many rules which apply to one or the other, re instead have one system that works like the vehicles AV, but applies to everything? For simplicity, I'll refer to this as Armor Class (AC)

This change should simplify the rules for dealing damage, and speed up combat, because it removes most saving throws by incorporating them into the Difficulty Class (DC) for the attacker.

Every unit will have a base AC which represents its innate durability. Instead of having Armor Saves and Invulnerable Saves which function in a vaccume, I would have these act as modifiers on the base AC (If a character has an energy shield and Power Armor, he should be more resilient to everything than a character with just the Power Armor). This should also speed up combat, because this removes most of the Saves from the game (Cover Saves would remain).

Note, the following is assuming that Weapons and relevant Special Rules, will be changed to accommodate the new system and that some units will have their durability adjusted up or down for balancing (this is just a starting point).

Base AC
T1 ~ AC0
T2 ~ AC1
T3 ~ AC2
T4 ~ AC3
T5 ~ AC4
T6 ~ AC5
T7 ~ AC6
T8 ~ AC7
T9 ~ AC8
T10 ~ AC9

Armor modifier
6+ ~ +1
5+ ~ +2
4+ ~ +3
3+ ~ +4
2+ ~ +5

Invulnerable modifier (Full modifier for first, subsequent Invulnerable Saves available to the Character only apply a +1 modifier)
6++ ~ +1
5++ ~ +2
4++ ~ +3
3++ ~ +4
Ex:

Cover Saves taken as normal.

Guardsman in Flak
T3, Sv 5+ --> AC2 + 2 = 4

Guardsman in Carapace
T3, Sv 4+ --> AC2 + 3 = 5

Space Marine in Scout Armor
T4, Sv 4+ --> AC3 + 3 = 6

Space Marine in Power Armor
T4, Sv 3+ --> AC3 + 4 = 7

Space Marine in Terminator Armor
T4, Sv2+, Inv 5+ --> AC3 + 5 + 2 = 10

Space Marine Chapter Master in Terminator Armor with Storm Shield and Iron Halo.
T4, Sv2+, Inv 3+, (Inv5+) --> AC3 + 5 + 4 + 1 + 1 = 14
(3 for Toughness, +5 for the Armor Save, +4 for the Storm Shield, and +1 each for the Iron Halo, and the armor's Invulnerable Save)

Grey Knight Dread Knight
T6, Sv2+, Inv 5+ --> AC5 + 5 + 2 = 12

Eldar Wraithknight (I know it can get an Inv., but I don't remember what it is, so I didn't include it)
T8, Sv3+ --> AC7 + 4 = 11

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/27 15:20:47


 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel




@Bill1138.
I agree with you that the current damage resolution in 40k is a horrid kludge of separate systems that promote imbalance and complication.

However, I think you ideas could be refined further, to make the system simpler and easier to use.

If all models get a Armour Value from 1 to 10.All weapons get a Armour Penetration value from 1 to 10.
Then the save the model gets can be looked up on a chart similar to the way S v T is currently done .

A= armour value.P=weapons armour penetration value.
EG
A/P 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1....4,4,5,5,6,6,7,7.n,n
2....3.4.4.5.5.6.6.7.7.n.
3....3.3.4.4.5.5.6.6.7.7.
4....2.3.3.4.4.5.5.6.6.7.
5....2.2.3.3.4.4.5.5.6.6.
6....1.2.2.3.3.4.4.5.5.6.
7....1.1.2.2.3.3.4.4.5.5.
8....d.1.1.2.2.3.3.4.4.5
9....d.d.1.1.2.2.3.3.4.4
10..d.d.d.1.1.2.2.3.3.4.

Stat values run 1 to 10 to give a decent basic range.All results are a D6 roll you need to succeed.

d results meant you auto succeed and double up the success to count as 2 wounds/ structure damage.

7 result means you half the number of 6 rolled rounding down to count as successes.(Quicker than re rolling 6+ followed by 4+ for 7+ to hit .)

n means no effect.Not able to hit /save or wound.

This would cover all units in the same way, and reduce complication without loosing granularity of results.

@All
I agree with everyone voting for removing the poorly applied Apoc game ideas from 6th and 7th ed.

Set the game size at 5th ed.(With the Apoc units in a dedicated expansion of their own.)

Decide what the game play is supposed to be .
And then write completely new rules from the ground up , keeping some core elements the current 40k players expect.

My 3 auto includes, would be .
Keep the move shoot and assault phases, but in alternating phase game turn.

Keep the three stage damage resolution,but in the more logical order of , to hit ,to save ,to wound.(Which allows a simple suppression mechanic to be used.)

Keep the D6, but use them in a more intelligent way to generate proportional results.

And most importantly develop all armies at the same time using less restrictive F.O.C . that allow more narrative themes to be used.

And balance the game at the level of interaction the unit level.
Costing individual models and equipment, then trying to balance the game at the army level is totally a sales driven approach that is the least effective way to acheive game balance in a game focused on unit interaction!.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I disagree on the removal of the larger game pieces from the core system. If they are created in a way that is balanced to the game, then there is no need for any supplemental material.

Once everything has been built with the same pricing as a base and with their interaction on the table in mind they really should have no negative effect on the game as a whole.

Don't allow personal preference for game size decide what can and cannot be balanced within a system, some of us like our big stompy robots

   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel




@Lythrandire Biehrellian.
To quote you..
''Don't allow personal preference for game size decide what can and cannot be balanced within a system, some of us like our big stompy robots ''.
I am aware that SOME people like all the big kits that look good.(Mainly collectors who GW are now targeting.)

Others think they are a complete waste of time UNLESS you are playing over a large area.(Full on 'Apocalypse' size game.)

IF they are in an expansion of their own, then JUST the players who want to include them can use them.

But the way they were implemented in 6th-7th edition was as a desperate cash grab.

So to re set to a size of game that the majority of people enjoyed and were happy with, and get that balanced and elegant .
Means that when we add the 'big stuff' back in we can do it so it actually enhances the game play , rather than totally derails it.

I use the term 'we', as GW are never going to invest in actual rules development for 40k.(It will get in the way of short term sales apparently. )
So its going to be up to the players to try to sort it out..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/28 08:54:29


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
Go to: