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Personally, I think that it would balance it a bit if the pistol's wielder had to pass an initiative test to use it, on top of the WS test to hit (and would still only get to shoot once). This way, it's both realistic, and not OP.

I reckon a model with no pistol or ccw should be able to make their attacks as normal.

A model with CCW gets +1 attack and all attacks are made with the weapons strength etc.

A model with pistol may make an additional attack with the pistol in cc, using its strength and ap, at his initiative.
A model with two pistols may make an attack for each pistol.


Guardsman with lasgun- 1 attack
Marine with bolter & bolt pistol- 1 attack + 1 pistol shot
Guard Sgt with plasmapistol and chainsword- 2 attacks + 1 plasma shot.


This makes a difference between a model who is genuinely unarmed for CC and a model who is carrying a singular chainsword /pistol.

It makes assault more lethal for both parties and actually favours the pistol over the CCW on most basic troops with 1 attack (orks making a slugga attack at s4 vs their choppa attacks) as the most sensible choice.

Huh. I actually like that quite a bit. That does make a lot of forces more effective in assault, but then, assault is currently a bit UP outside of really dedicated forces. (TWC, Wulfen, maybe Vanguard Vets, Meganobz, those kinds of things)

This idea would make a clear distinction between "has no business fighting" forces like Fire Warriors or Guardian Defenders, guys who can kinda fight if they have to like Kabalite Warriors or Tactical Marines, and folks who are meant to be fighting like Wyches or Boyz without adding an overabundance of special rules.

I am of the opinion that a model with no CCW or pistol should only hit on 6s in Assault and always strike last. They are using buttstocks and fists, they shouldn't have an easy time harming an armored foe by any means.

maybe this:

pistol variants are all 5 points

pistol special rule (to be named): any model with a pistol can swap 1 of their attacks for a single shooting attack using their WS instead of BS with the pistol.

just because you shot the pistol doesn't mean you would somehow be unable to swing your sword imo. the usage of WS instead of BS is due to the fact (in my mind) that in the swirl of melee you're not aiming as much as you're relying on instinct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am of the opinion that a model with no CCW or pistol should only hit on 6s in Assault and always strike last. They are using buttstocks and fists, they shouldn't have an easy time harming an armored foe by any means.

tactical marines have combat knifes, so I assume that other basic squads have simple CCWs to use (entrenching tools, catachan knifes, etc.)

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am of the opinion that a model with no CCW or pistol should only hit on 6s in Assault and always strike last. They are using buttstocks and fists, they shouldn't have an easy time harming an armored foe by any means.

While I see what you mean, making units that are already weak in assault, even weaker, is unlikely to impact balance in any kind of positive way. (Won't really even make so-so assault units better, or at least, not good enough to be worth taking.)

 Lukash_ wrote:
Storm Bolters should get Salvo 2/3 or something like that. More people would take them on vehicles and Terminators would get a little bit of a buff.

As for the pistols thing, I think if plasma pistols were 5 points you would see quite a lot of them, especially on stuff like veteran Guard sergeants and company commanders. I would probably make them 7 to be proportional to the gun's price.

OooooOOOH one more STR4 shot, so scary. Storm Bolters are inherently bad because people pt too much value on them for an single extra shot at 12+ inches.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Lukash_ wrote:
Storm Bolters should get Salvo 2/3 or something like that. More people would take them on vehicles and Terminators would get a little bit of a buff.

As for the pistols thing, I think if plasma pistols were 5 points you would see quite a lot of them, especially on stuff like veteran Guard sergeants and company commanders. I would probably make them 7 to be proportional to the gun's price.

OooooOOOH one more STR4 shot, so scary. Storm Bolters are inherently bad because people pt too much value on them for an single extra shot at 12+ inches.

The Regular Bolter's improvements have made the storm bolter kind of redundant and its hard to improve the SB without turning it into some kind of LMG(3+ shots) or pocket rocket(strength boost), which it's not.
I'm also loath to give it a special rule, like rerolls to wound, because rules bloat.

I'd go for an overhaul of the twinlinked rules themselves and treat the stormbolter as a twinlinked bolter.

Twin linked- may either reroll the to hit or the to wound/penetrate dice.
Twin linked- double the shots.

OR you just make the Stormbolter S5. It'd make Tactical Terminators and PAGK slightly more attractive.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
OR you just make the Stormbolter S5. It'd make Tactical Terminators and PAGK slightly more attractive.

That doesn't gel with lore though.
The HB is clearly firing larger rounds, its got a massive barrel.
I suppose there's an argument from the idea of the Assault Cannon- where the high rate of fire is represented through both extra strength and extra shots.
It still doesn't feel right though, the Storm Bolter is essentially two bolters. That's how good it should be.

Wait a second, do people not take Inferno Pistols whenever they can? I'm shocked. It confers Melta's extra dice roll always. Yeah it's only 6", but it's going on stuff that deep strikes so you'll get the shots.

Plus, you still get to keep the extra bonus attack. They're amazing.

Honestly, just a 5 point reduction for Plasma and Grav pistols would be enough.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Wait a second, do people not take Inferno Pistols whenever they can? I'm shocked. It confers Melta's extra dice roll always. Yeah it's only 6", but it's going on stuff that deep strikes so you'll get the shots.

Plus, you still get to keep the extra bonus attack. They're amazing.

Honestly, just a 5 point reduction for Plasma and Grav pistols would be enough.

Inferno pistols are terrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 =Angel= wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
OR you just make the Stormbolter S5. It'd make Tactical Terminators and PAGK slightly more attractive.

That doesn't gel with lore though.
The HB is clearly firing larger rounds, its got a massive barrel.
I suppose there's an argument from the idea of the Assault Cannon- where the high rate of fire is represented through both extra strength and extra shots.
It still doesn't feel right though, the Storm Bolter is essentially two bolters. That's how good it should be.

I don't care about the lore, ie GW's bad fiction that is in no way shown to be accurate on the table top anyway.

Martel732 wrote:

Inferno pistols are terrible.

You could have just said "I'm voting Trump" and it'd have the same effect. Thanks for actually engaging, and welcome to my ignore list.

There's only been about 20 explanations of this on this site. Ignore me about the BA armory at your own peril.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Wait a second, do people not take Inferno Pistols whenever they can? I'm shocked. It confers Melta's extra dice roll always. Yeah it's only 6", but it's going on stuff that deep strikes so you'll get the shots.

Plus, you still get to keep the extra bonus attack. They're amazing.

Honestly, just a 5 point reduction for Plasma and Grav pistols would be enough.

No they don't, because they're awful. If you don't want to listen to Martel though:
1. It has a max range of 6", which means:
2. A 3" Melta Range.
3. At cost, you can't spam them in a squad to kill a transport and charge the contents inside, plus:
4. Stripping HP is easier and more effective.
5. Lastly, the weapon won't confer a +1A bonus when using a Power Fist or Claw, and in that case why not Storm Shield?

With a 3” melta range and a 6” overall range you need some help deep striking them as well. With that sort of margin for error, just 2d6 and a scatter die is begging to either mishap or be out of range. Even 1d6 scatter is a high risk gamble. Locator beacons can help, but then you are adding more points onto an already expensive trick.

Stepping out of a drop pod should work, but anything else is madness.

 =Angel= wrote:
the Assault Cannon- where the high rate of fire is represented through both extra strength

I do not have the impression that the assault cannon has its extra strength over the autogun for any reason other than being a bigger gun. Just one shot from the assault cannon would still be s6. Rending is from sustained high ROF, sure.



Re: the storm bolter, no matter how buffed out gets it will still be an anti-geq gun, and having a special gun for killing GEq isn't important. Having a special gun for killing MEq isn't even important. So I guess you have to buff GEqs so people take GEq and you have something to kill with your salvo 20 storm bolter or whatever it is.