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So I had a thought, what if a character could opt to forego all of their CC attacks to fire their Pistol using its normal profile during the Assault phase. So an Assault Space Marine with a Plasma Pistol could pass up their three CC attacks (1 base + 1 on Charge + 1 for two CCW) and get one Str 7 AP 2 attack instead. This would apply to all pistol weapons.

Would this make Pistols good enough for their points or too good/bad for their points?

Make Pistol variants 5 points.

You still wouldn't see them competitively, but now you're not punished for wanting to use some nice bitz.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Make Pistol variants 5 points.

You still wouldn't see them competitively, but now you're not punished for wanting to use some nice bitz.

That is certainly another option. I was just trying to come up with something that makes them a little more useful. It is insane that a Plasma Pistol costs as much as a Plasmagun, but has shorter range and fewer shots. I kinda like the imagery of a Marine charging in with a chainsword and plasma pistol, and just as he is about to strike with the chainsword, he takes aim with the pistol at point blank range and blasts the target instead.

I actually like this idea. A possible extension of the rule could be that:

(1) If they have more than one attack to use during that round of combat, they can forgo all but one (i.e. still have one attack with (one of) their melee weapons) and fire their pistol instead.

(2) If they only have one attack for that round of combat (for whatever reason), then they can forgo that attack to use their pistol instead.

Just a thought. I definitely think your idea is solid.

And I agree with the Plasma Pistol deal: it costs way too much. 5 - 10 points max.

I think models should just be able to make one of their attacks with their pistols if they want to. A charging assault SM would have 3 attacks: he makes 2 attacks with his ccw and 1 with his plasma pistol.
It's more coherent with the use of a pistol that, I think, you can fire in a blink of an eye in the fury of the melee. Look at the Dawn Of War cinematic for example

Love the idea, very cinematic and certainly fluff accurate (I never did understand why a Strength 4 Marine's attacks were still Strength 4 when his pistol is strength 7.

Also a very cool use for Inferno Pistols now.

While it might be worth it for assault marines, I don’t think it will fix the problem for characters. For them, the loss of multiple attacks is a more significant trade.

IMHO the place to fix the problem is points. Cut them down to 10 ppm and you would occasionally see special pistols. 5ppm and they would be everywhere. Ideally I think 7-8 points is where they should be, but GW generally likes multiples of 5.

At 10 points nobody will still take Special Pistols, and at 5 points you're DEFINITELY not going to see them everywhere. I haven't a clue why you'd think that.

I prefer a "5 point break" on most pistols, and the "Free attack in close combat"; make "Point Blank" a universal rule that allows some ranged weapons (not just pistols, stuff like Tau Pulse Breachers can be amusing too) to be used in melee or so.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
At 10 points nobody will still take Special Pistols, and at 5 points you're DEFINITELY not going to see them everywhere. I haven't a clue why you'd think that.

Because I don’t play at the top end of the game.

In tournament play, there is no room for fluff. You squeeze every ounce of power out of your list, and exploit every advantage you can. To do any less is a disservice to your opponents. They expect your A game, and are bringing their own. At the FLGS level you can get away with a lot less. Depending on the store, you might even get shunned for bringing a tournament style list. Obviously YMMV, every local meta is different. I’ll grant that at 10ppm you still might not see them in tournament lists, maybe 5. But someone might surprise us and find a way to leverage something nasty out of them.

While I’m not a “casual at all costs” player, I do temper my lists with things I enjoy or are fluffy. But I do it consciously and tighten up other parts of my list to compensate. I try to make lists I enjoy and are about the power level of what I expect to see across the table, so both my opponent and I can have a good game. Philosophically, I also think the game should be balanced around the mid tier. I recognize that there are going to be “power” options, that are just better, but rather then boosting everything to that level, we should tone those down, and buff the weak options. Not everything should be grav and scatbikes. Buffing pistols to that level will just make the game worse overall. IMHO, etc.

But even my fluffy bunny, casual self recoils at the thought of 15ppm plasma pistols. And I want to like them, real bad. They are the iconic sidearm of choice of the well equipped warriors of the imperium. They should be on the hip of every SM captain. But when it comes down to spending the points, I can’t do it. I’ll spend 5 points on something if I think it looks cool. 15 is too many.

Back when plasma pistols were 5ppm and you could take two on assault squad, I did so. Often on multiple squads in the same list. This was back in 3rd, when assault wasn’t quite so bad. But I would do the same today given the choice. I like flamers on my assaults. They are priced right, and offer decent functionality. But plasma pistols just aren’t worth it at 15. There is enough stuff out there that needs a good AP2 kick in the teeth, I’d like to have more ways of getting it on the field. And I don’t want to use bikes all the time. I like assault marines, and enjoy using them.

Cutting plasma pistols off of my assault marines was one of the only times in my decades in this hobby I’ve taken a knife to a finished mini.

Sorry if this is a little rambly. Just trying to give you a clue to my though processes. Which tend to be scattered at the best of times.

If you're not looking at competitive impact, then you aren't going to get it. Simple as that.

It doesn't matter if everyone in a casual meta will take 5 point Pistols because a casual meta lets you take anything in the first place. We're looking to actually fix the issue with Pistols here. There are two options, and both can actually be applied without breaking the game.
1. Pistol variants are 5 points.
2. You get to make a single attack in melee with them.

pistols could be free and it might matter then, i think that if anything guns need to go up in price in addition to pistols getting cheaper. im thinking 15 points combi's, 20 point specials near the higher end, and heavies start at 10 and go up. however if your a devestator you would pay less because your a fething devestator without heavy weapons you arent a devestator i hate to break it to you, and commanders and sargeats pay less for pistols

im thinking that you could then do things with wiggle room youve made to tweak the storm bolter into not sucking. im thinking assault 3 and 5 points each is fair.

I think pistols should just give you an extra attack using its profile.

It would give plasma pistols a serious buff - AP2 at initiative is no joke.

A points adjustment may still be necessary of course.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I think pistols should just give you an extra attack using its profile.

It would give plasma pistols a serious buff - AP2 at initiative is no joke.

A points adjustment may still be necessary of course.

Wait, so like how Cypher fights in CC?

I like the idea of pistols firing into close combat.(Just the one the model carrying the pistol is fighting in obviously.)

Rather than replace all a models close combat attacks with one pistol shot, why not let the pistol shot replace ONE close combat attack?

I am sure points adjustments will still be needed though.

Honestly, as much as I love the idea of pistols, you need to give it both the "turn one cc attack into pistol profile" and a point reduction to make them viable.

 ionusx wrote:
pistols could be free and it might matter then, i think that if anything guns need to go up in price in addition to pistols getting cheaper. im thinking 15 points combi's, 20 point specials near the higher end, and heavies start at 10 and go up. however if your a devestator you would pay less because your a fething devestator without heavy weapons you arent a devestator i hate to break it to you, and commanders and sargeats pay less for pistols

im thinking that you could then do things with wiggle room youve made to tweak the storm bolter into not sucking. im thinking assault 3 and 5 points each is fair.

Nobody will take Storm Bolters still, and 15 point Combi-Weapons equates not seeing them ever again. They're barely taken at 10; why bother making them even less attractive?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Honestly, as much as I love the idea of pistols, you need to give it both the "turn one cc attack into pistol profile" and a point reduction to make them viable.

That's fine by me.

Storm Bolters should get Salvo 2/3 or something like that. More people would take them on vehicles and Terminators would get a little bit of a buff.

As for the pistols thing, I think if plasma pistols were 5 points you would see quite a lot of them, especially on stuff like veteran Guard sergeants and company commanders. I would probably make them 7 to be proportional to the gun's price.

I was gonna mention Cypher's Blazing Weapons special rule but some one beat me too it. In the Assault phase, half of Cypher’s close combat attacks (rounding up) are Strength 4 and AP5, and all remaining attacks are Strength 7 and AP2.


Just make pistols assault 2 and grant +1 attack in CC. Done.

 Lukash_ wrote:
Storm Bolters should get Salvo 2/3 or something like that. More people would take them on vehicles and Terminators would get a little bit of a buff.

As for the pistols thing, I think if plasma pistols were 5 points you would see quite a lot of them, especially on stuff like veteran Guard sergeants and company commanders. I would probably make them 7 to be proportional to the gun's price.

Storm Bolters need to be S5. Just making them Salvo hurts Grey Knights (here's to you, Psycannon!), and still won't make me take them as I can still just take more bodies.
Marines have enough S4 AP5. The Storm Bolter needs to be redefined.

S7 AP2 at Initiative is better than every power weapon.in every way, except power fists for S4+ characters.

Alcibiades wrote:
S7 AP2 at Initiative is better than every power weapon.in every way, except power fists for S4+ characters.

This is one of the reasons that adds to the argument that the rules surrounding this idea need to be better defined (either in the profile of the weapons themselves and/or on this particular proposed rule). So in this case, it would be more balanced (but maybe not completely balanced) if Plasma Pistols struck at a lower initiative - hell, maybe even have the 'Unwieldy' special rule when being used in close combat (this actually makes a lot of sense since you still have to aim it rather than just swing with it). It might also be an interesting balancing attempt to extend the 'Gets Hot' rule to all rolls that miss rather than just roles of 1 while in CC.

It is a single hit in melee hitting on a 3+ or 4+.

It isn't broken and would be perfectly fine to implement so that Pistols get a minor amount of use. Plus the hefty price cut would be needed.

Alcibiades wrote:
S7 AP2 at Initiative is better than every power weapon.in every way, except power fists for S4+ characters.

Which is why I think the pistol should still only offer 1 attack with its profile in melee.

Alcibiades wrote:
S7 AP2 at Initiative is better than every power weapon.in every way, except power fists for S4+ characters.

That is why I would think trading all of their attacks for the opportunity to use the pistol at initiative using its profile.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
S7 AP2 at Initiative is better than every power weapon.in every way, except power fists for S4+ characters.

That is why I would think trading all of their attacks for the opportunity to use the pistol at initiative using its profile.

That's not exactly balanced if you think about it. Say for example that, in a squad that is charging, the Sargent has a Chain Sword and a Plasma Pistol. They would have 3x CC attacks. Now consider the Sargent of the target of the charge who has a Power Fist and a Plasma Pistol. They have 1x CC attack. It isn't balanced to simply say that they both give up all of their CC attacks when one unit is clearly "Paying" more for their shot with a plasma pistol than the other.

I like the original idea of trading all your cc attacks for one pistol shot, it isn't perfect but much better than the current system.
Plasma pistols currently just don't make sense game wise

 IllumiNini wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
S7 AP2 at Initiative is better than every power weapon.in every way, except power fists for S4+ characters.

That is why I would think trading all of their attacks for the opportunity to use the pistol at initiative using its profile.

That's not exactly balanced if you think about it. Say for example that, in a squad that is charging, the Sargent has a Chain Sword and a Plasma Pistol. They would have 3x CC attacks. Now consider the Sargent of the target of the charge who has a Power Fist and a Plasma Pistol. They have 1x CC attack. It isn't balanced to simply say that they both give up all of their CC attacks when one unit is clearly "Paying" more for their shot with a plasma pistol than the other.

Yeah, but look at something like the Inferno Pistol. It outclasses the Power Fist in every aspect. Why should a guy wielding a Chainsword and Inferno Pistol be better in combat than a guy wielding a Bolt Pistol and Power Fist. Yes, someone wielding a special pistol and a power fist is getting less out of this, but they are getting more than they were under the current system.

If you only got one attack with the profile of the pistol, it'd work quite nicely - I'd still let you use the rest of your attacks, but you must use a different weapon (or 'generic close combat weapon' if you don't have any other).


Essentially:

1) A plasma pistol should be a tempting option, despite costing more and having less shots (admittedly not one-use) than a combi-plasma

2) A captain with a plasma pistol and chainsword should still hit harder than an assault marine with a plasma pistol and chainsword

3) There should be no need for unnecessary calculations - so "half your attacks" as with Cypher

4) Even if you've bought a plasma pistol, you should still want to take a 'proper' close combat weapon in your off hand.

5) You shouldn't get 'extra attacks' or 'extra hits' - a model with a bolt pistol and sword has already got the edge over a model with two swords in that he can shoot; he doesn't need an edge in combat as well by getting extra attacks.

Yeah, but look at something like the Inferno Pistol. It outclasses the Power Fist in every aspect. Why should a guy wielding a Chainsword and Inferno Pistol be better in combat than a guy wielding a Bolt Pistol and Power Fist. Yes, someone wielding a special pistol and a power fist is getting less out of this, but they are getting more than they were under the current system.

Most people with the option of a power fist have more than one attack - so will be getting 2-3 attacks (if charging) to the inferno pistol's 1.

you could always give pistol shots 'unwieldy', of course.