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I'm planning on using Chosen in 40K games as CSM and using them as Tactical Support Squads for my Traitor Emp Children in 30K.

For 40K, I'll be using the Black Legion supplement to make them troops, and then using either Huron or Ahriman to be sure of the trait that allows D3 Infiltrators, who I will then outflank. (Unless my opponent is cool enough to let me run my own HQ and just choose the trait.) There's a nice echo of the 30K EC Rite Of War with this, and 5 outflanking special weapon marines is something my opponent will have to think about.

None of that makes them top tier, but it does help mitigate some of the issues (except points cost, sadly.)

The key difference to havocs is that they're not heavy support. There is much more competition for a heavy support slot than an elite, but more importantly they can be troops, which means they can make a dreadclaw objective secured. And with a special weapons they will be dangerously close to being assaulted, especially if taking a dreadclaw, which makes the extra attacks actually matter.

Keep in mind I'm not saying that makes them an epic unit, but they have their use. They've worked more often than not for me. Plus they get bonus points for being chosen . In terms of models and fluff.

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Chaos Chosen are amazing

Chosen can take combi-plasmaguns and havocs can't.
1 Chosen with combi-plasma cost same as 1 havoc with plasmagun, but with no added 10 pts for Champion.

They also have 3 attacks base and everyone is Ld9, not only champion. So if they got to enemy on their Rhino they shoot their plasmaguns at something and next turn if they are not blasted to bits they charge 4 attacks each.

And they don't give enemy VP for killing Heavy support in Big guns never tire mission.

Oh and they can be made Troops with Abaddon (also giving them Preferred enemy: loyalists when within 12")

I'd not call it amazing, but pretty good for csm. And don't underestimate 3 CC attacks. I've run a squad of 10 chosen with 3 meltas from Cypher formation against renegades with cheap spawns. He killed a few and than counted on tarpitting or even killing them with spawns cause, you know, "chosen suck" and charged a unit of 6 or 7 dudes with 3 full health spawns. Overwatch + a ton of attacks and they ended up with a free consolidate move and chosen shooting and charging next turn.

Yes, chosen are very easy to shoot down for the points. But when there's a blob of 20 fnp hnr atsknf marines, spawns and oblis nearby, attention tends to shift away and the dudes get a chance to do their stuff.

Probably not of interest to the OP as he states mrs. wifey likes melee troops, but if you want an objecsec unit to sit and camp objectives in your own deployment chosen can take an autocannon at basic unit size helping them reach out and touch things, plus they are fairly fighty so they can't be easily fought off an objective like cultists.

 koooaei wrote:

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Chaos Chosen are amazing

Chosen can take combi-plasmaguns and havocs can't.
1 Chosen with combi-plasma cost same as 1 havoc with plasmagun, but with no added 10 pts for Champion.

They also have 3 attacks base and everyone is Ld9, not only champion. So if they got to enemy on their Rhino they shoot their plasmaguns at something and next turn if they are not blasted to bits they charge 4 attacks each.

And they don't give enemy VP for killing Heavy support in Big guns never tire mission.

Oh and they can be made Troops with Abaddon (also giving them Preferred enemy: loyalists when within 12")

I'd not call it amazing, but pretty good for csm. And don't underestimate 3 CC attacks. I've run a squad of 10 chosen with 3 meltas from Cypher formation against renegades with cheap spawns. He killed a few and than counted on tarpitting or even killing them with spawns cause, you know, "chosen suck" and charged a unit of 6 or 7 dudes with 3 full health spawns. Overwatch + a ton of attacks and they ended up with a free consolidate move and chosen shooting and charging next turn.

Yes, chosen are very easy to shoot down for the points. But when there's a blob of 20 fnp hnr atsknf marines, spawns and oblis nearby, attention tends to shift away and the dudes get a chance to do their stuff.

So what I read here was board saturation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im also talking to her about maybe running traitor guard if she want to do the whole chaos thing. I'd have to get the forgeworld book but I am not opposed to that. I also told her she could do ww2 model tanks instead of the GW tanks so we will see where that takes her.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A 9 hour difference really makes it rough to try and help her decide what she wants to do.

 Xerics wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Chaos Chosen are amazing

Chosen can take combi-plasmaguns and havocs can't.
1 Chosen with combi-plasma cost same as 1 havoc with plasmagun, but with no added 10 pts for Champion.

They also have 3 attacks base and everyone is Ld9, not only champion. So if they got to enemy on their Rhino they shoot their plasmaguns at something and next turn if they are not blasted to bits they charge 4 attacks each.

And they don't give enemy VP for killing Heavy support in Big guns never tire mission.

Oh and they can be made Troops with Abaddon (also giving them Preferred enemy: loyalists when within 12")

I'd not call it amazing, but pretty good for csm. And don't underestimate 3 CC attacks. I've run a squad of 10 chosen with 3 meltas from Cypher formation against renegades with cheap spawns. He killed a few and than counted on tarpitting or even killing them with spawns cause, you know, "chosen suck" and charged a unit of 6 or 7 dudes with 3 full health spawns. Overwatch + a ton of attacks and they ended up with a free consolidate move and chosen shooting and charging next turn.

Yes, chosen are very easy to shoot down for the points. But when there's a blob of 20 fnp hnr atsknf marines, spawns and oblis nearby, attention tends to shift away and the dudes get a chance to do their stuff.

So what I read here was board saturation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im also talking to her about maybe running traitor guard if she want to do the whole chaos thing. I'd have to get the forgeworld book but I am not opposed to that. I also told her she could do ww2 model tanks instead of the GW tanks so we will see where that takes her.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A 9 hour difference really makes it rough to try and help her decide what she wants to do.

Don't forget that Chaos also of course includes Daemons!

Slaanesh & Tzeentch models especially are a lot of fun to build & paint, and they're pretty damn good on the table too.
Between Renegades & Heretics + Daemons, she could also grow a collection that can play a much more competitive game while still being 'Chaos', and not feel like you're playing at a massive disadvantage all the time. (or forcing everyone else to always have to come down to your level)

I have to say traitor guard are one of the armies I have not really gotten to play all that much. I played against them one time in a local tournament but they got swept off the board pretty quick once I popped open all the chimeras. At that pointmy Autarch on a bike pretty much swept an entire unit every assault phase. Chaos Demons are another faction I havnt gotten to play against in quite some time. I usually see Dark Eldar, imperial knights, space marines, or the occasional orks. Necrons have been my main opponent but being eldar i dont have problems with them.

 Xerics wrote:
I have to say traitor guard are one of the armies I have not really gotten to play all that much. I played against them one time in a local tournament but they got swept off the board pretty quick once I popped open all the chimeras. At that pointmy Autarch on a bike pretty much swept an entire unit every assault phase. Chaos Demons are another faction I havnt gotten to play against in quite some time. I usually see Dark Eldar, imperial knights, space marines, or the occasional orks. Necrons have been my main opponent but being eldar i dont have problems with them.

Traitor Guard built out of the regular IG codex are pretty pants, since they not only suffer from all the regular Guard issues, but also (rather stupidly) were made into CtA allies for Chaos.

On the other hand, the IA:13 army list from FW is freaking kick***! It does however really lean heavily towards the 'quantity over quality' side of the spectrum, and requires a lot more models than even Guard do.
Still, it's fun to have everything from traitor guardsmen, to barely-trained cultists, mutants, Plague Zombies/Spawn/other marked units, looted imperial equipment & tanks, etc... all collected together into one giant horde of Imperium-hating death!


Daemons can be pretty much anything you want them to be... Khornate/Slaaneshii assault armies, slowly shambling undying Nurgle hordes, shooty Tzeentch... Big stampy monsters between Greater Daemons & Princes, and/or terrifying Soul Grinders.
Daemons are also great as any army for anyone who really doesn't want to paint traditional vehicles/tanks.

Mostly the army revolves around owning the Psychic phase and augmenting/hexing the hell out of everything, with Witchfires & Summoning thrown in on the side, while being primarily an very fast-paced assault army.
The only actual shooting comes from a handful of Tzeentchian units, and a couple of character upgrades.

They overall definitely retain that feeling of being a 'Fantasy army in space'.

Well if she wants to do traitor guard i will definitely get her the forgeworld book as I am already going to get IA11 for myself. I am not sure if she will want to play daemons though. Although if they are a good melee army in an edition that kicks melee in the pants for being melee than she might go that option. She is a far better painter than I am so her army might actually look good.

I know someone here said that Chosen taking up an Elite slot compared to a Heavy Slot is a pro, so I just wanted to throw my thoughts in on that.

It REALLY isn't. We can take multiple CADs and formations nowadays. It is really why only Cypher's Chosen are decent to the regular ones, if that (Infiltrate can literally make anything look good...). In the same slot I would get Termicide. That's a better use of points right there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I know someone here said that Chosen taking up an Elite slot compared to a Heavy Slot is a pro, so I just wanted to throw my thoughts in on that.

It REALLY isn't. We can take multiple CADs and formations nowadays. It is really why only Cypher's Chosen are decent to the regular ones, if that (Infiltrate can literally make anything look good...). In the same slot I would get Termicide. That's a better use of points right there.

It is though. I didn't mean to imply it would be a huge benefit, but still. Look at the competition. There are terminators and cult troops. Maybe possessed if your going crimson slaughter.
In heavy support you have obliterators maulerfiends and for some people forgefiends (vs havocs). Which doesn't sound bad, except that when you count forgeworld, the heavy support slot suddenly becomes super crowded. Sicarans, spartans, fire raptors, maybe the kharybdis, Blood slaughterers, rapiers and the laser destroyer.
The forge world elite choices are mostly meh given how the loyalist dreads got boosted. All the other good stuff is in fast attack.

Using multiple CAD's doesn't really change that. It just forces you to pay for more troop choices and we don't really have any formations as csm. And those we do have don't include havocs or chosen.
The real benefit chosen have over havocs is the troops thing. If you go Black Legion you can even have Chosen and your choice cult unit as troops, and since you don't want possessed in that case, you have 3 slots for termicide.
Havocs take up a heavy slot no matter how you do it. And there's no alternate way of taking other heavy support units. The CSM codex at least has a pretty flexible elite section in that sense. Even the helbrutes can be taking in a formation, which is the only way you would want them anyway.

You at least have the option to take chosen and replace a troop slot, which isn't possible with havocs. So in that sense havocs have a hidden cost in comparison to chosen.
Obviously that doesn't always apply, but if you want more "elites" you can get them without having to pay for more troops just to unlock more slots.

And then you're paying 20 points for what is a Marine with 3 attacks.

That's not even CLOSE to worth it.

That's a different discussion, but yes, that's one hell of a disadvantage. Though they do ok for me, but then again, I don't use like half the codex.

Saving slots is not even a question.

two of the only decent CSM units to begin with are the HQs of sorcerer and price-you probably have more than a single one of them anyway.
And having a handful more cheap cultist troops to sit on objectives isn't really a bad thing. just two units usually isn't enough anyway.
So opening up 3 additional heavy slots usually costs nothing or next to nothing, at least nothing of a tax. especailly considering you are going to save quite a few points by fielding havocs over identically equipped chosen.