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MVBrandt wrote:
Metrically, NOVA actually favors MSU more than deathstars, slightly. It is fairly difficult to argue, however, that GW's book missions are anything more than amateur compared to other games' book missions, while Malifaux probably has the most evolved set.

I'm disappointed they continue with a line that poor, imbalanced, over-simplified missions do anything other than offer a lesser experience compared to alternatives for most player types. There is no direct corollary between a good, fair, engaging mission that enhances balance ... and competitiveness. If you're playing a casual friendly game and the rules and missions are better and more balanced, it will be more casual and friendly than if bad mission design and balance creates unfun, unfair, or totally ridiculous outcomes. Never understood how "friendly" somehow equated to "unbalanced and crappy" in a positive way. It's like an affordable car breaks down and the response by the owner is that they didn't want a fancy car anyway. One's got nothing to do with the other. It represents a failure of basic logic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically, pay money so you can host a tournament with missions that are MORE likely to create NPEs than if you used free, superior options like nova, itc, etc, etcetera.

At least they're trying. 40k just has become this untamable monster, bloated beyond repair. I remember having fun with it before, and I love the background. I just don't know how anyone can play it/keep up with the tournament curve in any reasonable fashion anymore.

There are other options out there, people.

gungo wrote:
I like the idea I'm cool with the non competitive friendly style tournamentish setup.
But holy hell this kit is way overpriced. It's a $40 kit tops and even that is a stretch because vehicle tokens are cardboard and not plastic. $500 is a joke and beyond GW stores I don't know why any independent would want it.

The kit cost me 30 bucks.

For 500 more i get a boatload of tanks at better than normal discount.

 mikhaila wrote:

gungo wrote:
I like the idea I'm cool with the non competitive friendly style tournamentish setup.
But holy hell this kit is way overpriced. It's a $40 kit tops and even that is a stretch because vehicle tokens are cardboard and not plastic. $500 is a joke and beyond GW stores I don't know why any independent would want it.

The kit cost me 30 bucks.

For 500 more i get a boatload of tanks at better than normal discount.

Ya those details came out after I wrote that. It's not a bad deal at all. Considering you only need to sell a couple of tanks to make that $30 back and the rest is just more profit for you. While $500 is a decent amount of stock it's still only about 12-15 vehicles even at ~50% markdown. I also think this is cool because this is not in most GW stores it's a promotion for independents only. And even though they include a 1750 tournament at the end it's an escalation format meaning even someone with one tank can join for a while. Kudos all around to GW for this.

The one thing that concerns me is a speed building competition is just a bad idea. I fully expect many exacto knife injuries all over the place from this idea. I hope you keep a first aid kit handy.

GreyDragoon wrote:
Sorry Gungo but I don't think you understand where we're coming from. I don't care if I'm playing in a tournament or in a friendly afternoon match. The book missions are just inferior in every way to even the ITC missions. Which are in my mind nowhere near as well refined as the NOVA or Adepticon ones.

The shame of this package isn't the cost of it, I assume (hope) that there is something more to this than just a restating of the rules and some GW finery that you get for that cost as a store owner/tournament runner. It's that they haven't done anything to look at the wide variety of mission rules out there and come up with improved mission sets for tournaments. Whether you want that tournament to be competitive, friendly, or narrative - in all three cases the book missions are woefully inadequate, and the basic maelstrom cards straight up tend to ruin games.

If they'd like to perhaps make a really robust offering in a tournament/mission book, my suggestion would be 6-12 missions each for Competitive (uber balanced) Friendly (balanced but not at an army selection level) and Narrative (3 mission story arcs) that they could easily sell at a premium for people to enjoy in tournaments. Also they should bring back and repolish the planet-wide campaigns they used to have and really get that setup nicely so they could do regional/seasonal narratives.

All things I'd happily pay some very real money for, and would be extremely healthy to our game.

1. GW doesn't give a rats arse about NOVA , ITC, although they figured out what Adepticon is..maybe. They just don't care about how you want to play tournaments. Shocking, i know.

2. They say to use the missions in the book, because they are the ones most likely to be played in stores, from their point of view. Many small tournaments use them all the time. Easy for the TO and players to look up, and they don't have to go to a third party source for them.

3. Using Adepticon, ITC, or Nova missions would be worse. The people who like Adepticon would cheer, and the ITC and NOVA crowds would lose their minds, swap out names for two other results.

4. GW does no Market Research. NONE. Nothing. They don't know the state of the gaming industry. They don't know their competition. They don't know Organized Play. They don't like, and ignore, competitive gaming. Expecting them to actually look at those tournaments when they write up some quick rules for an easy tournament isn't realistic.


These rules are for a series of light events to run in stores, similar to what they had 20 years ago, and like to run in their own stores. I'm amazed they actually came back to OP, and hope they do more. They aren't great, but they are something. Don't play this type of tournament if you don't like it.

And don't worry about it being any sort of "official" standard. None of the big tournaments will take it seriously, that they suddenly have to run 1750 and book missions.


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The one thing that concerns me is a speed building competition is just a bad idea. I fully expect many exacto knife injuries all over the place from this idea. I hope you keep a first aid kit handy.[b]

Oh hell, I certainly won't be running this. A building day, sure. But 'Speed Building' makes for crappy models. And possibly exacto wounds, your right.

I play orks, i can make mistakes putting a model together. But i certainly don't want a player racing to get a land raider done and making a crappy job of it.

 mikhaila wrote:

GreyDragoon wrote:
Sorry Gungo but I don't think you understand where we're coming from. I don't care if I'm playing in a tournament or in a friendly afternoon match. The book missions are just inferior in every way to even the ITC missions. Which are in my mind nowhere near as well refined as the NOVA or Adepticon ones.

The shame of this package isn't the cost of it, I assume (hope) that there is something more to this than just a restating of the rules and some GW finery that you get for that cost as a store owner/tournament runner. It's that they haven't done anything to look at the wide variety of mission rules out there and come up with improved mission sets for tournaments. Whether you want that tournament to be competitive, friendly, or narrative - in all three cases the book missions are woefully inadequate, and the basic maelstrom cards straight up tend to ruin games.

If they'd like to perhaps make a really robust offering in a tournament/mission book, my suggestion would be 6-12 missions each for Competitive (uber balanced) Friendly (balanced but not at an army selection level) and Narrative (3 mission story arcs) that they could easily sell at a premium for people to enjoy in tournaments. Also they should bring back and repolish the planet-wide campaigns they used to have and really get that setup nicely so they could do regional/seasonal narratives.

All things I'd happily pay some very real money for, and would be extremely healthy to our game.

1. GW doesn't give a rats arse about NOVA , ITC, although they figured out what Adepticon is..maybe. They just don't care about how you want to play tournaments. Shocking, i know.

2. They say to use the missions in the book, because they are the ones most likely to be played in stores, from their point of view. Many small tournaments use them all the time. Easy for the TO and players to look up, and they don't have to go to a third party source for them.

3. Using Adepticon, ITC, or Nova missions would be worse. The people who like Adepticon would cheer, and the ITC and NOVA crowds would lose their minds, swap out names for two other results.

4. GW does no Market Research. NONE. Nothing. They don't know the state of the gaming industry. They don't know their competition. They don't know Organized Play. They don't like, and ignore, competitive gaming. Expecting them to actually look at those tournaments when they write up some quick rules for an easy tournament isn't realistic.


These rules are for a series of light events to run in stores, similar to what they had 20 years ago, and like to run in their own stores. I'm amazed they actually came back to OP, and hope they do more. They aren't great, but they are something. Don't play this type of tournament if you don't like it.

And don't worry about it being any sort of "official" standard. None of the big tournaments will take it seriously, that they suddenly have to run 1750 and book missions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The one thing that concerns me is a speed building competition is just a bad idea. I fully expect many exacto knife injuries all over the place from this idea. I hope you keep a first aid kit handy.[b]

Oh hell, I certainly won't be running this. A building day, sure. But 'Speed Building' makes for crappy models. And possibly exacto wounds, your right.

I play orks, i can make mistakes putting a model together. But i certainly don't want a player racing to get a land raider done and making a crappy job of it.

Outside of various toxic elements, most folks aren't as partisan as all that, including the organizers themselves (Reece, Hank, myself, etc generally stay on positive terms with each other, attend each other's events when we can, etc). Certainly there are some areas where hostility and partisanship are more pervasive, of course.

The missions in the book are also much simplier than the multi element tourney missions. The Relic is simple and easy for a new person to play. Multiple maelstrom objectives, with big guns never tire, and multiple secondaries becomes a lot more unwieldly for a new person that this specific organized event is aimed at. I'm not saying the brb missions are perfect, but there is a huge difference of the target of GW missions and tournament missions. GW spend more time making and providing alter of war scenarios for narrative games than they do creating competitve tournament missions.

Thanks for the clarification on the cost, mikhaila! For a quick, simple in-store tourney, it's definitely not a bad step. Simple missions have a lot of appeal for that - would help if the game was somewhat balanced but that's certainly not a new development

 Valhallan42nd wrote:
40k just has become this untamable monster, bloated beyond repair. I remember having fun with it before, and I love the background. I just don't know how anyone can play it/keep up with the tournament curve in any reasonable fashion anymore.

There are other options out there, people.

Oh, I dunno. I think the ITC tourney format has tamed it just fine.

Bloated? Yes, bigger than ever (except a slight condensing of rules from 6e). Which actually makes the playing field more level, far more so than 5e (which I loved).

Untamable? Only as untameable as one's use of a Banned list, or your group's decision on how much to hobble things, or even, just you and the guy across from you.

I've been having fun with 40k for 11+ years, tourneys for 5+ years.

Wow, ok, I know this is Dakka where the GW hate is real but let's dial it back a bit.

First off the tournament format is a single sheet from a large box filled with materials for running a larger, more hobby based, event based around tanks. What I'm sharing is just one page from the $30 box that gives the store access to lower prices on tanks to do things like hobby nights based on tanks and games based around tanks. This is in no way a $500 piece of paper.

Second it's a single way to play tournaments, according to GW, not some sort of new attempt by them to circumvent the current independent circuit and establish their own paradigm in which everyone must now play.

Third the book missions are much simpler than the independent tournament missions that have been developed by third parties. While Maelstrom can indeed have big swings it is just another random element to a game that can already swing randomly due to dice rolls.

What I am really interested in is the precedent GW is setting overall with this. Coupled with their new FB page for 40k and AoS and seeming interest in player feedback I feel this signals moves back in the right direction.

Outside of various toxic elements, most folks aren't as partisan as all that, including the organizers themselves (Reece, Hank, myself, etc generally stay on positive terms with each other, attend each other's events when we can, etc). Certainly there are some areas where hostility and partisanship are more pervasive, of course.

Somehow i think if GW adopted one of the 3 as "official", the other two wound not be too silent. Everyone has a preference to how they want to tournaments to be run. (Regardless of whether they have anything to do with the other tournaments, in many cases. ) If people in generally are being nicer now, that's great. But in the past we've seen a huge amount of arguing on those boards about format, and quite a few people being hostile because Tourney X doesn't run rule Y.

People have favorites. I don't see someone who prefers NOVA format over Adepticon as toxic, just as having a preference. And it's probably a good thing GW didn't adopt a format from anyone else. No need to start the tournament wars up again.

A huge positive step in the right direction, if you ask me. Even if it is not a "competitive" format. Providing an organized play kit, that makes a GW event accessible at local game store is a good sign. My understanding is stores have means and ways to fund these sort of things via credits, and returned merchandise depending on level?

If you are in the hobby long enough it all comes back around.

Giving local stores some form of organized play kit, something that my kids can go up and participate in, other than Friday Night Magic, love it.

AdeptiCon does what we do but we certainly want GW engaged in event promotion, and getting people into the hobby through community outreach and events.

Hank Edley

 mikhaila wrote:
Outside of various toxic elements, most folks aren't as partisan as all that, including the organizers themselves (Reece, Hank, myself, etc generally stay on positive terms with each other, attend each other's events when we can, etc). Certainly there are some areas where hostility and partisanship are more pervasive, of course.

Somehow i think if GW adopted one of the 3 as "official", the other two wound not be too silent. Everyone has a preference to how they want to tournaments to be run. (Regardless of whether they have anything to do with the other tournaments, in many cases. ) If people in generally are being nicer now, that's great. But in the past we've seen a huge amount of arguing on those boards about format, and quite a few people being hostile because Tourney X doesn't run rule Y.

People have favorites. I don't see someone who prefers NOVA format over Adepticon as toxic, just as having a preference. And it's probably a good thing GW didn't adopt a format from anyone else. No need to start the tournament wars up again.

I agree it's best they do NOT adopt an existing format. My disappointment, if there is any, is the weakness of the missions. Nothing heavier. It is possible to build good, engaging, balance-helping missions that aren't overly-complex or all about competitiveness. Again, see Malifaux. The black and white idea that missions must either be bad and simple or good but too complicated for casual play is silly.

Outside if the missions, GW engagement with customers is a positive thing. But there's been enough bridge burning that it's understandable everyone doesn't instantly play the overjoyed spouse cheering the return of a long lost love with no suspicion and wide open arms.

 RiTides wrote:
I don't see how 1750 could be "reviled" when 1850 was so accepted. The fact is if you're comparing to the early 2000s, with how points have changed since we should all be playing 1500 to have a similar experience.

It was 1750 for 40K in the final year of the GW GTs (2008).

I am a big GW critic and can only facepalm at how they run their company, but...really guys? Really?

This is the first step GW takes into considering their games games again. That's quite a change from "We only sell models" and AoS being essentially "We don't write rules anymore". It's baby steps, sure, but it's a step.

Then we have multiple people in here strongly discussing why 1750 is not 1850. What? Why? GW doesn't know anything about the competitive scene and doesn't want to get involved into it either. They don't know why 1850 was so popular and frankly, they don't care. GW tournaments have never been comparable to actual tournaments as they don't even put proper restrictions on stuff which is extremely necessary with 40k 7th. It's not a high level competitive game, it's "Yo, meet some friends in a friendly tournament where everyone has fun!" not "Be the best of the best and triumph over your opponents!".

Jeeez, some reactions in here are just mind-blowing...

Are people really complaining about 100 points? I don't get to finish a lot of my 1850 games and I've been playing this game for a decade, cutting it down a little is a good step towards actually finishing games.

while I sit in my hospital bed wishing I was at Adepticon, I can finally put my input here.

1) GW has been running tournaments for years at Warhammer World with a wide range of points, sometimes restrictions and they Run events almost every month. Last year, most were at 1875 so the knight armies could participate. I bet no one knows the point levels of the next event.



2) ITC and Nova went nuts trying to convince everyone that the game is broken from day one of the 7th edition release and that their way is the only way to fix this horrible game. Get over yourselves. Write your own game instead of making changes catering to your noisy power gamer attendees that have driven more people away that brought new ones in. 40k is not a game that was made to play competitively with "balanced army construction and missions" the more you pretend to be balancing it, the more off base you become. Some organizers spent time trying to build their brand while trashing others. At the end of the GT circuit, the GW staff called out by name the most offensive individuals who either scammed the system and are no longer a part of it and others who did well at the cost of trashing other events. Claiming to support others while have such a history of being a dirtbag is a laugh.

4) This is not a new Tournament Format. This is the start of GW re-entering a presence in Social Media, Store Based events and Promotions. Clearly you can see from the most of above posts, we do not deserve nice things.

Ok, so I am sure I ruffled feathers here but guess what, I just had spinal surgery, I may never regain the use of my hand and I am so fed up with the veiled mistruths that I have been the target of for years that I just don't care to be polite anymore.

I'm genuinely sorry to hear about your surgery and medical issues. I'm also sorry for whoever believes you when you say things like ITC and NOVA try to cater to power gamers. Thousands of non power gaming attendees disagree. It does yourself, your happiness, and your constituents a disservice. I don't have anything positive or negative to say about mechanicon. As with you and nova, I've never been, and like with nova, people come back every year of all player type and have fun. So. Cheers.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

I think everyone is waiting to see what they do with AoS.

I hear in AoS tournaments everyone gets a trophy.

And a free pack of crayons along with a juice box.

Wrong thread.

Edit.

Troll.