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On a side note about running the Endless Grimoire: take it on a herald and make another herald/Daemon Price/Lord of Change with paradox be your warlord. Auto success with summoning Burning Chariots every turn since you get all the powers and have paradox since the Endless Grimoire doesn't say it has to be on your warlord.

RabbitMaster wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Yeah, some people don't think that restriction actually exists.

The psychic rules are a mess. I personally believe the unit can cast flickering fire once per psyker. It's up to who you play against and their interpretation.

Because it simply doesn't exist, but people are not consistent enough in their rule interpretation to see it.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:Yeah, some people don't think that restriction actually exists.

The psychic rules are a mess. I personally believe the unit can cast flickering fire once per psyker. It's up to who you play against and their interpretation.

Can someone explain why they wouldn't be able to? What's the interpretation here that says it can't? I'm not interested in getting in a rule debate this is just the first time I've heard that, maybe I've been playing it wrong?

 SHUPPET wrote:

RabbitMaster wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Yeah, some people don't think that restriction actually exists.

The psychic rules are a mess. I personally believe the unit can cast flickering fire once per psyker. It's up to who you play against and their interpretation.

Because it simply doesn't exist, but people are not consistent enough in their rule interpretation to see it.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:Yeah, some people don't think that restriction actually exists.

The psychic rules are a mess. I personally believe the unit can cast flickering fire once per psyker. It's up to who you play against and their interpretation.

Can someone explain why they wouldn't be able to? What's the interpretation here that says it can't? I'm not interested in getting in a rule debate this is just the first time I've heard that, maybe I've been playing it wrong?

The rules for the psychic phase are entirely silent about how to deal with a unit that contains multiple psykers - a brotherhood unit that contains some IC psykers, or a unit (brotherhood or not) that contains 2 or more IC psykers.

The rules say, under 'Manifesting Psychic Powers':

If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.

Some people have interpreted the last sentence, "unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once", as applying to the entire unit - including all psykers at once. I think this has always been a fairly unpopular opinion, as it opens up a can of worms on what a psyker unit actually is, and how you generate warp charges for psyker units of multiple psykers.

Trasvi wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

RabbitMaster wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Yeah, some people don't think that restriction actually exists.

The psychic rules are a mess. I personally believe the unit can cast flickering fire once per psyker. It's up to who you play against and their interpretation.

Because it simply doesn't exist, but people are not consistent enough in their rule interpretation to see it.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:Yeah, some people don't think that restriction actually exists.

The psychic rules are a mess. I personally believe the unit can cast flickering fire once per psyker. It's up to who you play against and their interpretation.

Can someone explain why they wouldn't be able to? What's the interpretation here that says it can't? I'm not interested in getting in a rule debate this is just the first time I've heard that, maybe I've been playing it wrong?

The rules for the psychic phase are entirely silent about how to deal with a unit that contains multiple psykers - a brotherhood unit that contains some IC psykers, or a unit (brotherhood or not) that contains 2 or more IC psykers.

The rules say, under 'Manifesting Psychic Powers':

If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.

Some people have interpreted the last sentence, "unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once", as applying to the entire unit - including all psykers at once. I think this has always been a fairly unpopular opinion, as it opens up a can of worms on what a psyker unit actually is, and how you generate warp charges for psyker units of multiple psykers.

ah. But wouldn't it say no model, not no unit?

Cursed earth + grimoire + forewarning = 2++ (although you don't need all three).

Alternatively, Be'lakor can give them shrouding or invisibility.

The screamers have decent CC capability, but their real strength is the slash attacks + their CC output.

Heralds in the unit can flickering fire stuff, and the exalted locus of conjuration gives them extra punch. Also, they can now roll for Prismatic Gaze for a D weapon.

Standard list is;

Fatey
4 L3 Heralds
6-9 Screamers
2x11 Horrors

Allied
Be'lakor
10 Cultists

Is 20 warp charge, so the heralds can look for summoning if you get the good powers early on in rolling.

If not, you've got flickering fire with prescience (and potential perfect timing)

The list can struggle with Av14, as 9 str 5 armourbane attacks isn't great. They can also easily get tarpitted by a Wraithknight, who can ignore the 2+++ with stomp, taking out your heralds. Also, they lack H&R, so are prone to being tied up by mobs and hence not being able to witchfire things.

 SHUPPET wrote:
ah. But wouldn't it say no model, not no unit?

If the rules were written for psyker models, everything would be simpler, yes.
Sadly the psychic rules use the terms "psyker" and "psyker unit", which both refers to the exact same thing: "a unit with the Psyker / Brotherhood of psyker rule". So when you say "My psyker is casting this power" what you say is "my unit with the psyker rule is casting this power".

When individual psykers are by themselves everything works fine. But as soon as you get one psyker model in the same unit as other models (psykers or not), everything breaks. So how do we play the psychic phase? Wether you realize it or not, we all play it the same way: we consider that multiple psykers in the same physical unit are in fact different individual psyker units when it come to the psychic phase.

For example, if someone's GK grand master (psyker lvl2) and GK librarian (psyker lvl3) join a unit of paladins (brotherhood lvl1), we will all consider them as 3 separate psyker units even though they are forming one single physical unit: each of them will generate it's mastery level of warp charge dices, the perils of the librarian cannot go on the paladins or the grand master, etc.... That's perfectly normal it is the only way where the rules actually make sense. And if you are consistent with how you play, then two psykers in the same physical unit can definitively attempt to cast the same power (provided they both know it of course) during the same psychic phase because you treat them as two distinct psyker units.

So how come some players will still argue the opposite ? Well IMHO there is two main reasons:
- First some people don't know how to read rules (context? what is that?). They will take a sentence/paragraph, remove half of it and throw it to your face saying "booya you're wrong, my truncated text with ultra-RAW reading wins". And they will not realize how inconsistent they are in their reasonning.
- But the more probable reason has nothig to do with rules. When 7th ed came up, the SeerStar and the ScreamStar were top-tier armies and as such the target of a lot of hate. At the same time Invisibility changed and became gross while summoning was the new 40k boogeyman. Other powers were of concern too, but those were the big ones. Guess who could spam those powers ? The SeerStars and ScreamStars! So yeah, when you add the cheesiness of those armies with the fear (justified in some case, not so much in others) of those new powers, then you quickly understand why a lot of people decided (or voted) to just prohibit multiple cast of the same power within the same unit.

TL;DR: Two psykers in a unit can't cast the same power not because of how we understand the rules and actually play them, but because of balancing issues and fears of now bygone days.