Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Been playing since begeining of 5th... Orks are a super fun army but they have never been really top tier in my over half a decade of play. They were competitive, and nob bikers, battle wagone rush or can wall would do same damage but it always more had to do with countering the meta than being actually powerful. given the current meta though of fast and shooty the orks just can't keep up. playing both CSM and orks I would say they are both at the bottom, but the CSM are slightly better mostly due to demon princes and heldrakes.

SemperMortis wrote:


I never use Forgeworld so I honestly do not know, but where the hell are all these invulnerable saves coming from for the ork player? As it stands the only way to get a invul save is to take a bigmek with a KFF (MFF) for a 5++ or 4++, and then only against shooting...and it costs 50 (75) respectively just for the gear, not counting upgrading a mek to be on bike and what not. So where the hell are all these 2++'s and what not you see?


Ohh and no Ork player placed in 9th at the LVO, in fact I don't think a single Ork army placed in the top 50.

I was refering to jink saves. 4+ jink, warbikes get +1 when boosting, and Zhad confers skilled rider for 2++. Warboss with lucky stikk gets as many rerolls as possible before the 3 failure limit. It's not a "true" inv, it ignores AP like one but it doesn't work in CC. As far as I'm aware they're both represented by ++. The star is killer in CC anyway (Is Zhad's I 4 PK not getting any love?) and they get a T5/6 (e: 6 is the bosses, to prevent further indignant confusion. ) 4+/5+++ going bikes and painboy. Shooting it what really worries them, and that's where the 2++jink shines.* Let the lucky stikk boss tank with his 2++ rerollable jink and start making 2+ (non rerollable) LOS rolls if it gets hairy. (That's a 97% save rate for the record, then FNP on top of that.)

*Watch out for markerlights and heavy flamers. Does work vs overwatch though. (For the record, not the ignore cover ones.)

Also: The LVO saga: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/635005.page (It was the 2015 LVO, so maybe that's where the confusion was.) Confirmation: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/160JxptmjMIjf7LYT6AGspFAAzkf-7aRhGhaOenvX54Q/edit#gid=0

also also: Here's an example of a bikerlist which won #1 at SoS, sadly hasn't seen play at all yet at upper tier tournaments like NOVA, LVO, or Adepticon. http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Chuck-Arnett-Best-Overall-Storm-of-Silence-Orks-2015.pdf

 oldzoggy wrote:

I never use Forgeworld so I honestly do not know, but where the hell are all these invulnerable saves coming from for the ork player? As it stands the only way to get a invul save is to take a bigmek with a KFF (MFF) for a 5++ or 4++, and then only against shooting...and it costs 50 (75) respectively just for the gear, not counting upgrading a mek to be on bike and what not. So where the hell are all these 2++'s and what not you see?

The inv save is a lie.

I own a Ia8 copy and IT isnt in there nor is IT in that outdated PDF file.
Zardsnark da rippa only has a 6+ sv and No inv or any other protection.
The only model dat had An inv svv in Close combat is nadruk (and ggaz when hè waaghes)

Orks Are not a Close combat army. No really they aren't. Dure they van butcher defenseless shooty units in close combat, but any Decent dedicated Close combat squad wil murder any "deadstar" you van come up with in Close combat.
There is just No way that not having An in save + striking last is going to cut IT..

E: I guess Zhad's warbike doesn't grant him a 4+ armour save like every other warbike apparently. He doesn't technically have a bike at all in his wargear but I feel like you could get a ruling of a 4+ save on that as the warbikes entry in Codex: Orks grants a 4+. Really ticky tacky stuff. He still hits at I 4 like every MEQ and will instakill every non MC without eternal warrior, and benefits from a 3+ jink at the very least from skilled rider (which gives +1) and the 4+ jink save. That's all if you convince a judge that bike he's riding on doesn't really exist and totally isn't a bike from codex: orks giving him the 4+ and turbo boosting jink bonus. The rest of the squad including the other boss would all still have 2+ jinks by rule. E2: Apparently most tournaments do rule he has a 4+ save from his bike and the turboboosting bonus, according to the bikerlist posted above.

Jinks are invul saves with attached conditions essentially, I referred to them as inv in shorthand to make the point they have an ignore AP save at the exact same point a inv save would be taken. As far as I'm aware jink/cover/inv are represented by ++. Those other stars are double to triple the point cost and will suffer heavily in an objective based game vs MSU fast ob sec spam. E3: I'd be curious to hear what star you'd put up against them tho. Invisibility has been nerfed at every major tournament level. The bosses can instakill biker marines. Footslogging stars can't catch bikes to assault, even with Draigo's Gate. (Can't assault out of a deepstrike,) Vs Draigo the nob can issue a challenge. If Draigo accepts, Zhad's I4 MEQ instakill hits hitting his librarian core who don't have nearly as good an inv and cripple the star by removing powers and WCs before Draigo can win his challenge and return to tanking. If a librarian accepts, he could potentially be instakilled by the nob. If they refuse, draigo can no longer participate and his librarians have to tank all the hits. Not to mention Draigo is the cost of Zhad and a good size unit of bikes by himself. Going point for point on whatever the other star has by adding a painboy, pk boss w/ stikk, warboss with kill choppa,(For S7 I 4 6+ rending/instakill (Actual instakill too, not just double S instakill.)) and then just more bosses with pks make the star pretty damn scary.

Sorry for the bazillion edits, I just kept thinking.

Hunam0001 wrote:
2++ may be referring to Jink saves?

There is also no way of getting a 2+ jink save as an ork player, unless he turbo boosts and its night fighting, then he gets 2+, but only if those specific conditions are met, otherwise, no, it doesnt happen.

Ork Note: Ork bikers (Warbikers) have a 4+ jink save just like every other bike in the game, if they choose to forgo their shooting and turbo boost they gain +1 to all cover saves, IE jink becomes a 3+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I just read slip's post, this is true, Zhad gives everyone Skilled rider, so if they turbo boost they do in fact get a 2+ jink save, of course to get this they have to turbo boost and can not shoot or assault that turn. Also if you put your warboss out in front on a bike with DLS just be prepared for a lot of LoS rolls as a number of armies now have AP4+ Ignores cover weapons.

Zhad is a good biker unit don't get me wrong, but they really don't shine in close combat like you think they do. If they get into a fight with a MC with Initiative 5 or higher it is going to rip through your bikes without to much problem (keep in mind that you go by unit toughness not model toughness, so your unit is still majority Toughness 5, IE Insta killed by S10 which is what most MC's are packing anyway.) Not to mention anything with Ignores cover special rule will destroy those bikes, Tau would have a field day with such an expensive unit.

What is the essence of a proper Ork army/codex which can work? How can it fully differentiate from the other horde army, the Tyranid, which also have Troops choices which consist of high numbered, weak armoured infantry?

Is the Mob rule versus the Synapse rule enough to keep them differentiated (along with different units and models of course) or should one or both armies need more to make them unique?

Chaospling wrote:
What is the essence of a proper Ork army/codex which can work? How can it fully differentiate from the other horde army, the Tyranid, which also have Troops choices which consist of high numbered, weak armoured infantry?

Is the Mob rule versus the Synapse rule enough to keep them differentiated (along with different units and models of course) or should one or both armies need more to make them unique?

I have both Nids and Orks and the problem isn't differentiation but effectiveness.
The 'Traits' such as Synapse and Mob Rule can be seriously detrimental, compare that with the Necron Species' Resurrection Protocols which is never detrimental and almost always beneficial.

Orks/Nids need a fluffy, unique Species trait that can be worked with, rather than managed and treated like a tax.

SemperMortis wrote:

Hunam0001 wrote:
2++ may be referring to Jink saves?

So I just read slip's post, this is true, Zhad gives everyone Skilled rider, so if they turbo boost they do in fact get a 2+ jink save, of course to get this they have to turbo boost and can not shoot or assault that turn. Also if you put your warboss out in front on a bike with DLS just be prepared for a lot of LoS rolls as a number of armies now have AP4+ Ignores cover weapons.

I run a bikerstar, bullyboyz (3x 5 MANz + trukks, +1 ws, fear, fearless), 3x tankbustas w/ trukks, obsec grot spam, and a VSG. Zhad gives his bikerstar scout, allowing 12" redeploy in any direction, including forward or outflank. +24" my first turn for 2+ jink and guaranteed turn 2 charge. The VSG blocks markerlights (ITC, adepticon) and low S weapons in the early game, also allows you to daisy chain models from units to maintain 3 AV12 HPs if needed. (Not for friendly games obviously.)

AP4- ignore cover isn't common yet. Outside of Tau is mostly the domain of heavy flamers. They will be hard pressed to catch the bikers, especially with their max 36"(including scout) turn 1 move, potential 24" per turn, and 12+2d6+ 'ere we go assault. (Zhad gets ere we go as per ITC and adepticon) VSG blocks them too. (Even in overwatch.) Can't really Alpha strike into the VSG either, it's basically all parking lot and grots, no room for a drop pod. Would they even want to get that close?

What MCs are I 5+? The only one I can think of is the hive tyrant which is almost unanimously 2x devourer flyrant variety. A single MC vs bikersquad with multiple warbosses? I think that's a bit of a reach. Especially if you do go all out for that killchoppa boss who can rend/instakill MCs at I4. MCs also can't single out ICs to instakill, they'd have to chew through all the bikers first, then the moment when the majority of the unit is T6 but can still make LOS rolls. Anything S10 is either I1, allowing a sick and probably equally fatal counter attack, or is a GMC has 4 attacks max (wraithknight), not enough to chew up a whole biker squad. Ghost glaive doesn't really help with mulching bikers either. Strength D is nerfed, allowing LoS rolls vs range&melee (No stomp snipes), jink vs ranged D, and capping ranged D to 2 W no instadeath. In any case, since we're moving on from star vs star to just tactica in general, my particular list has lots of options with 3x tankbustas and 3x fearless MANz missiles. Maybe I'll save some cash for a trip to a tournament someday and see how it goes.

Another question/subject:

Space Marines and Astra Militarum (and others) are quite organized which can be seen by the design of their armies. The game design divides armies into units but are Ork and Tyranid armies just one great mix of these unit without further organization which just advances en mass or is there structure in those armies and do they differ besides the obviousness of having different units?

Orks split into gangs and mobs based on various things, mainly which nob hit them last.

Nids just don't give a feth avout structure. Occasionally they'll do something that looks like they have a structure, but its just IOM scholars trying to make sense of the incomprihensible.