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I find it hilarious that people apparently now believe crisis suits should be vehicles, but bike/jetbike units are still being conveniently ignored. I don't see much of a difference between them, honestly.

I tell you what, I'll accept vehicle stats for crisis suits if bike and jetbike units are also given vehicle stats, specifically the lowest possible AV all around, 1 HP, and with open-topped status on top of that (because their riders are obviously exposed and vulnerable). Makes sense, right? Or would you seriously argue that a battlesuit is a vehicle but a fething motorcycle somehow isn't? Another alternative I like would be to leave them all as they are, but just introduce a new rule that makes them all vulnerable to haywire weapons instead. Something easier and more reasonable than just redesigning these units from the ground up.

Also, as I've said before, I would argue that if crisis suits should have vehicle stats then so too should literally all Space Marine infantry that aren't scouts (including centurions), as a crisis suit behaves more like a slightly larger, less-sophisticated suit of power armored infantry with a jet pack (which is actually very well-represented with its stat line, being comparable to a Marine but with an extra wound) than it does a piloted vehicle. I'm not convinced that Marines are functionally all that different from crisis suits, other than a somewhat minor size difference, which shouldn't really have an effect on the game rules anyway, and I won't ever be convinced that they're different, either. Scooters and mopeds don't stop being vehicles just because they're smaller than cars or tanks, likewise a Marine's armor being smaller and more form-fitting than the Tau equivalent doesn't warrant it being a completely different unit type. They're either both infantry or they're both vehicles, doesn't make much sense to change one but not the other. Unless, as I've said before, your entire logic for doing so has less to do with game balance or consistency and everything to do with "feth Tau!"

Also, hilariously, the Tau ghostkeel isn't on the poll, despite actually having MC rules and enjoying all the same benefits, but the crisis suit and broadside are.

Anyway, I think it's obvious that the riptide, stormsurge and wraithknight should be walkers, and we all know that. These units are obviously broken and one of the main reasons for that is because they were given the wrong unit type. They are literally walking fething tanks. Picking on these smaller units however, most of which have been the way they are since they were introduced into the game (with the exception of the Eldar wraithlord, which isn't really a problematic unit as it is anyway), doesn't make any sense to me, and comes off more as people being sour and just wanting to dole out nerfs to half the Tau or Eldar codex just because it dares to exist. Let's just concentrate on fixing what's actually broken, why don't we?

Actually, the opposite. I'd like to see dreadnaughts, killa kans, and penitent engines turned into monstrous creatures. I think that making walkers a subset of MCs would be better than making them vehicles.

Further, I think the one and only good thing that appeared in Age of Sigmar was dwindling ability on monsters. Every Monstrous Creature should have an AoS like wound table, with their stats vanishing as they get injured.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
This is a weird poll to have when the argument is for Walkers to be MCs and GMCs. It's like the OP is deaf to the general complaint against vehicles in 40k.

SJ

Or I am just pointing out how Eldar/Tau don't want their precious MC/GMC turned into Vehicles but at the same time deny that their is any reason for Walkers to be turned into MC themselves. What is the difference between a Killa Kan and a Tau Crisis Suit/Broadside? There isn't much, both mechanical, both piloted, both about the same size as one another. And yet one is significantly more resilient then the other. How about the difference between my Morkanaut and a broadside? same argument.

GW needs to either fix the game (IE nerfing MCs/GMCs or Buffing Vehicles) or allow a 3rd party to write the rulebook.

Lore wise the Wraithknight is the only "walker" with a pilot in this list. All the Tau units you mentioned are all "suits" literal Iorn man suits that they just keep making bigger. but as a GK player i preffer them being MC over Walkers because that means my force weapons do D3 wounds. haha and i dont have any good Ranged anti armor anyways.

Necrons should be walkers.

Yeah, you heard me, I said Necrons - big whoop, wanna fightaboudit?

The only tau unit I don't think should be what it now is the storm surge (you can see the dam guys and the fluff is they are taken from the tank drivers not suits pilots)

But I think dreads should be MC as with soul grinders / defilers.

Non of them should be walkers. It's the walkers that should become MCs.

The reason these new toys are MCs really is partly to sell models, because walkers honestly suck as a type with little way to redeem them, and the only reason dreadnoughts keep the Walker type is due to historical reasons.

GW tried making new walkers with the maulerfiend/forgefiend, it didn't work. The walker type us a relic of old days that needs to be put out I'd it's misery.

Only "decent" walkers are Knights, and that's due to being superheavy.

Kind of hilarious to see Crisis, Broadsides and Wraith Guard in the list. If you make those vehicles you can continue with making Terminators, Centurions and Obliterators vehicles as well

Even though I voted for Knights, Riptide and Stormsurge to become walkers I also like the idea of doing away with the walker category and make everything MCs. Or giving MCs a damage chart, I don't see why there is an explodes result for vehicles but no headshot! result for MCs...

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Kind of hilarious to see Crisis

This thing?

Broadsides

This right here?

in the list. If you make those vehicles you can continue with making Terminators

You mean this guy?

Centurions

This guy?

and Obliterators vehicles as well

Him?

You don't see a clear difference between terminators, centurions and obliterators, on the one hand, and space aliens piloting gundams/robots, on the other hand?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm just saying. Those robots look like they have mechanical legs. Pretty sure that's not a tau leg doing the walking.

Traditio wrote:

I'm just saying. Those robots look like they have mechanical legs. Pretty sure that's not a tau leg doing the walking.

You could make a similar argument for Centurions at least. The space marine pilots arms are actually tucked inside the front of the suit.

Centurions are definitely vehicles, going by the same logic that makes a crisis suit a vehicle. If you disagree then it's an obvious anti-xenos (or just anti-Tau) bias and your opinion should be ignored.

Also Traditio, while you're here, how do you justify Marine bikers and Eldar jetbike units not having vehicle stats? Last time I checked motorcycles were fething vehicles.

 insaniak wrote:
None of the above. I'd prefer to see walkers turned into MCs.

I support your theory and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

I just think we should have a unified damage mechanics for all type of units, from infantry to MC to vehicles to GMCs, including bikes and jetbikes.

It's the 41st millenium with technological capabilities capable of throwing plasma bolts and obliterate planets. Whether you're hiding in ceramite or ferrocrete or chitinous appendages or flesh with unnatural toughness thanks to warp exposure, it is still that material that protects the bearer inside.

Right now we have units that have 2 protection values (toughness, and armour saves, as if a Space Marine's flesh was capable of withstanding a bolt that pierced the armour) and units that only have one (vehicles, because logic ?).

Because the system is inconsistent within itself, imbalances occur. Toughness makes little sense when the strength of a Marine's punch is the same as his main gun, and that Eldars are as vulnerable to lasguns as they are to punches from a Guardsman (because logic ?).

Having Toughness and Armour being 2 separate damage systems, with Toughness managing close combat damage (you take advantage of the short range to strike vulnerable points in the armour) and Armour being used to defend against ranged attacks, and each unit having both values, the system would be not only easier to balance (every unit would have the same damage mechanics)but would also make a lot more sense.

So the one on the left is an infantry model with a toughness value and a 3+ save. Not to mention 2 guns.
The one on the right is a vehicle model with an armor value and no saves of any kind. Not to mention 1 gun and a CCW.

So please explain to me why one is an infantry model with a toughness value, more guns, good armor save; while the other is a vehicle with an AV and garbage weapon options?

Ohh lets do a side by side comparison of a couple of things.

3 Crisis suits, with double plasma (Doesn't get hot) and that bonding knife shenanigans gives you 3 HIGHLY mobile JSJ models with 3+ saves, T4 S5 and BS3 running around the table for 159pts or thereabouts (i am not great with tau)

3 Killa Kanz upgraded with Grotzookas (The only weapon worth taking) with no other upgrades are the only vehicles in the game with pseudo morale checks (if you lose one you take a cowardly grot check, on a 1 or 2 the others become shaken ruining your chance to fire that grotzooka) AV 11/10/10 S7 CCW and all of that comes in at 165pts.

Which would you take?

But more importantly please explain to me why two robots of almost exact similar size are completely different unit types?

 Sidstyler wrote:
I find it hilarious that people apparently now believe crisis suits should be vehicles, but bike/jetbike units are still being conveniently ignored. I don't see much of a difference between them, honestly.

The Crisis is a walker vehicle, with a little guy inside piloting it, and the other is a guy riding a motorbike.

Having the walker vehicle be treated as a walker vehicle for games purposes seems fine to me, and having the bike be treated as a bike for games purposes also seems fine to me.

What is the issue here?

Crisis suits are power armor with jet packs. Space Marines and Meganobz should be vehicles then as well.

Traditio wrote:
I'm just saying. Those robots look like they have mechanical legs. Pretty sure that's not a tau leg doing the walking.

Basically every model in the Admech/Skitarii line should be vehicles then if having mechanical legs disqualifies you from being infantry

OTOH I am fine with Crisis staying infantry.

Just get rid of those MCs.

Arson Fire wrote:

Traditio wrote:

I'm just saying. Those robots look like they have mechanical legs. Pretty sure that's not a tau leg doing the walking.

You could make a similar argument for Centurions at least. The space marine pilots arms are actually tucked inside the front of the suit.

Source?

The most I'm seeing in the codex is that the centurion war-suit is an exoskeleton battle suit.

For the sake of comparison:



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Vankraken wrote:Basically every model in the Admech/Skitarii line should be vehicles then if having mechanical legs disqualifies you from being infantry

I'm pretty sure that those mechanical legs aren't attached to the little green man who's piloting the crisis suit, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sidstyler wrote:Also Traditio, while you're here, how do you justify Marine bikers and Eldar jetbike units not having vehicle stats? Last time I checked motorcycles were fething vehicles.

Bikes are their own separate unit type.

And it's not just eldar and marines who have them. Chaos Space Marines and Orks have bikes too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In contrast, let us look at the little green men in comparison to the robots that they're piloting:

 insaniak wrote:
None of the above. I'd prefer to see walkers turned into MCs.

Vehicles have facings, should operate differently and when wrecked they leave a prominent footprint on the battlefield. Turning them into monstrous creatures is lazy and stupid.

 amanita wrote:

when wrecked they leave a prominent footprint on the battlefield.

Perfectly true, but by that logic, so do MCs and GMCs.

IMO (with exception to Tyranids/Daemons, for obvious reasons) anything Wraithknight sized (or equivalent) should be treated as a heavy walker (vehicle).

Ignoring balance concerns completely, it makes sense to me for the Wraithknight, Riptide and Stormsurge (and Ghostkeel, conspicuously absent) to be walkers. They're big robots with pilots hitting pedals/steering wheels/whispering instructions to their dead siblings to make them move about.

I feel Crisis suits and Broadsides are small enough to justify being infantry. Wraithguards/Wraithlords can justifiably be called infantry/MCs I think. Bearing in mind they seem like big animated statues, it makes more sense to me that the statues effectively ARE their bodies, so they would react more like a living (lol) creature to damage to them, rather than a vehicle.

This of course ignores the big disparity between how powerful each of these unit types is. Maybe if a change to balance were made, people wouldn't care so much about what unit type their thingie was.

If it has a driver, it's a walker. Otherwise, they need to just get rid of Walkers. The disparity between Walkers and Monstrous creatures is ridiculous. This coming from a guy who doesn't play Eldar without a Wraithknight.

The bigger Tau suits (Riptide, Stormsurge, and Ghostkeel) should all be walkers. Crisis suits and Broadsides should remain infantry.

Dreadknighta should definitely become walkers.

Wraith units make more sense as MCs.

Tarvitz77 wrote:I feel Crisis suits and Broadsides are small enough to justify being infantry.

Did you see the comparative images I posted above?

The smaller crisis suits? Arguable. [But by the same argument, dreadnoughts should become infantry.]

Broadsides? The suggestion that they are "small enough," relative to their pilots, to justify their being infantry is positively ridiculous.

please make my riptides SHWs! then I can thrust forward to my opponents and die to their CC. . . and have colossal explosions when they die.

and the stormsurge! please make it a SHW; I want to be able to have no firing restrictions on my firing, shooting like a SHW.

Traditio wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

Traditio wrote:

I'm just saying. Those robots look like they have mechanical legs. Pretty sure that's not a tau leg doing the walking.

You could make a similar argument for Centurions at least. The space marine pilots arms are actually tucked inside the front of the suit.

Source?

The most I'm seeing in the codex is that the centurion war-suit is an exoskeleton battle suit.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Centurion

Once connected into the warsuit, the accepted battle position is for a Space Marine's hands to be crossed against the front of his chest, behind the torso-plate and the suit's secondary weapons, for he controls the vehicle with his thoughts.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The bigger Tau suits (Riptide, Stormsurge, and Ghostkeel) should all be walkers. Crisis suits and Broadsides should remain infantry.

Dreadknighta should definitely become walkers.

Wraith units make more sense as MCs.

This minus the Wraith part. Wraith knights and up should all be vehicles.

I'm envisioning a total rewrite of the rules that condenses all of the unit types into a "core type" and then applies modifiers.

For example, the core types could be Infantry, Beasts, Artillery and Vehicles. All core types would have Toughness and Wounds with each getting extra special rules. Infantry, Beasts and Artillery would be more or less unchanged. Vehicles would need to have more wounds and maybe an AoS style damage table that reduces capability as the vehicle takes damage. In other words, a Rhino might have T7 and 8W with a 4++ invuln save on the front and sides and 5++ on the rear. (just making up numbers). Work it out so they're about as hard to kill as they are now. Imagine that as they take wounds, they lose movement inches or lose the ability to fire weapons. Exactly like most big critters in AoS. Melta weapons might do d3 wounds versus vehicles instead of the current set up.

Now add unit type modifiers. Jet Pack, Jump, Massive, Gargantuan, etc. Jet Pack and Jump work more or less the same as they do now. Massive and Gargantuan would grant extra rules and maybe more durability. Maybe Infantry gets 6" to move with Massive being a +3" and Gargantuan being +6". Just spit balling.

So... you might have a situations like these...

Tau Crisis Suits are Jet Pack Infantry.
A Rhino is a Vehicle.
A Land Raider is a Massive Vehicle.
A Stormlord is a Gargantuan Vehicle.
Killa Kans are Infantry. (albeit, higher than average wounds and toughness).
Deff Dreads/SM Dreadnoughts are Massive Infantry.
Tyranid Carnifexes are Massive Infantry (or maybe Massive Beasts?)
Eldar Wraith Knights would become Gargantuan Infantry.

Most Walkers would become Massive Infantry. Most MCs would become either Massive Infantry or Massive Beasts. Most GCs would become either Gargantuan Infantry or Gargantuan Beasts.

As it stands, the rules are too fragmented and you need to memorize way too many different unit types. The above could be summarized on a couple of double sided playing cards.

Arson Fire wrote:

Once connected into the warsuit, the accepted battle position is for a Space Marine's hands to be crossed against the front of his chest, behind the torso-plate and the suit's secondary weapons, for he controls the vehicle with his thoughts.

Yeah. I could see centurions becoming AV 10 walkers.

Terminators? Not so much.

That said, it seems like it would be difficult to put black/white smoke cotton ball things on top of them.

So, why isent the Grey Knights Dreadknight on the list? It's a giant robot with a babycarrier! Is it just because it is part of the Imperium of Man and they are allowed to do what ever they want?