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Yep. And yet, you'd be amazed by the sheer number of non-Chaos players who will insist that we get the most releases after Space Marines.

Oh, and those plastic Berserkers? They're from April 1999!
That's right folks, they're not even from the current millennium!

Sisters players can understand our pain. Old school Dark Eldar players can as well, since they had to wait 9 years for their complete re-boot.
Everyone else though? Stuff it - sure your rules may suck now and/or have languished for half a decade or more, but you guys all at least have a near complete, fully plastic model line! Chaos don't even get that much.

Bad rules are easily worked around. A gakshoot, raging dumpster fire of a model line is something you simply can't ever get away from.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Yep. And yet, you'd be amazed by the sheer number of non-Chaos players who will insist that we get the most releases after Space Marines.

I think this sentence exemplifies the problem: where are people saying that in this thread? I'll go further and ask where are people saying this on Dakka? You're losing people's sympathies because you keep complaining about people that aren't here. You're getting a backlash from those of us that play Loyalists that are sympathetic to our cause because you keep generalizing the awful behaviour of a few individuals somewhere else to us as a group. We don't even know how big the issue of donkeycave loyalist players are, we only have your word to take for it, and when you bring it up every chance you get it's going to get old pretty quickly. It gives the impression that it's not your army that you're dissatisfied with, but rather that you have an axe to grind with other players, and that's not going to win any sympathies.

And I say this as someone guilty of doing the same thing at times.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Yep. And yet, you'd be amazed by the sheer number of non-Chaos players who will insist that we get the most releases after Space Marines.

I think this sentence exemplifies the problem: where are people saying that in this thread? I'll go further and ask where are people saying this on Dakka? You're losing people's sympathies because you keep complaining about people that aren't here. You're getting a backlash from those of us that play Loyalists that are sympathetic to our cause because you keep generalizing the awful behaviour of a few individuals somewhere else to us as a group. We don't even know how big the issue of donkeycave loyalist players are, we only have your word to take for it, and when you bring it up every chance you get it's going to get old pretty quickly. It gives the impression that it's not your army that you're dissatisfied with, but rather that you have an axe to grind with other players, and that's not going to win any sympathies.

And I say this as someone guilty of doing the same thing at times.

I would agree with you except I have heard and seen this happen with whomever usually pointing at Forgeworld and saying that through Forgeworld, we get all the loving we need model and rulewise.

 King Pariah wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Yep. And yet, you'd be amazed by the sheer number of non-Chaos players who will insist that we get the most releases after Space Marines.

I think this sentence exemplifies the problem: where are people saying that in this thread? I'll go further and ask where are people saying this on Dakka? You're losing people's sympathies because you keep complaining about people that aren't here. You're getting a backlash from those of us that play Loyalists that are sympathetic to our cause because you keep generalizing the awful behaviour of a few individuals somewhere else to us as a group. We don't even know how big the issue of donkeycave loyalist players are, we only have your word to take for it, and when you bring it up every chance you get it's going to get old pretty quickly. It gives the impression that it's not your army that you're dissatisfied with, but rather that you have an axe to grind with other players, and that's not going to win any sympathies.

And I say this as someone guilty of doing the same thing at times.

I would agree with you except I have heard and seen this happen with whomever usually pointing at Forgeworld and saying that through Forgeworld, we get all the loving we need model and rulewise.

Which is a thing for other armies as well. "Just ally X/Y/Z!" is a variation of the same thing, but that's hardly the same thing as people claiming the Baleflamer Heldrake is OP.

 King Pariah wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Yep. And yet, you'd be amazed by the sheer number of non-Chaos players who will insist that we get the most releases after Space Marines.

I think this sentence exemplifies the problem: where are people saying that in this thread? I'll go further and ask where are people saying this on Dakka? You're losing people's sympathies because you keep complaining about people that aren't here. You're getting a backlash from those of us that play Loyalists that are sympathetic to our cause because you keep generalizing the awful behaviour of a few individuals somewhere else to us as a group. We don't even know how big the issue of donkeycave loyalist players are, we only have your word to take for it, and when you bring it up every chance you get it's going to get old pretty quickly. It gives the impression that it's not your army that you're dissatisfied with, but rather that you have an axe to grind with other players, and that's not going to win any sympathies.

And I say this as someone guilty of doing the same thing at times.

I would agree with you except I have heard and seen this happen with whomever usually pointing at Forgeworld and saying that through Forgeworld, we get all the loving we need model and rulewise.

Real talk time.

Do not include Forgeworld.

Got it?

Forgeworld, if anything, should be considered Shiny Bonus Extra Things.

They are not a core part of any range. They do not determine the core units of any codex. Forgeworld is SHINY BONUS EXTRA THINGS.

Do CSM get some love from FW?

Well....not really much more than any other army. Sure, we have a few 'unique' units - Blight Drones, the flyers, the Khornate Daemon Engines....

But everything else is either Imperial or 30k with spikes stuck on it.

But that's not the point. FW should never be factored into concerns about an army's wellbeing. I don't know where people think it's acceptable to expect any other player to have to pay an ADDITIONAL £47 in addition to their own codex in order to be able to field a viable army.

Are the FW units strong? Yes, yes they are. But the same can be said for every other FW unit for every other faction. Hell, give me Malanthropes over Venomthropes every day of the week. Sure, a bit more vulnerable to ID 1-shotting (1 model as opposed to 2 at the same price)...but wait...they have a better save, better toughness and a 3+ save on top. And Synapse. Or, you know, Eldar Hornets. Those things are balls amazing.

However, every other faction can at least compose a somewhat viable army using just their core codex...a luxury CSM really don't have.

I do agree with the OP. It's okay to moan about the problems with CSM, but I avoid reading those threads because I don't want them to sour my personal enjoyment of CSM (much as I agree with the complaints). However, these arguments pop up in every news, rumour, CSM and Imperial discussion and it gets tiresome.

I come to dakka to see toy soldiers and talk to other people about toy soldiers, and that should be fun!