Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all,

Hope you are well. Please could we give the CSM bashing a rest as it seems to take over most threads I read these days. And yes, I play CSM. It's just getting boring.

Apologies for the rant.

Happy gaming.

I'd agree to it if we get a similar armistace to Blood Angels, Sisters of Battle, Black Templars and Orks.

Especially Black Templars. They at least have an up to date codex.

Nobody is bashing anything about CSM except the fact the codex has garbage internal balance and external balance, on top of having mostly blech models.

It's mostly chaos players who are upset me I just stopped playing them

Could just skip posts with stuff in that you don't want to read - it's not like Tzeentch has cursed you to a life of reading about Chaos.

@Walfmar: quite true, but it seems these days that every thread is getting de-railed by 'boo hoo, my CSM are rubbish'. Suck it up and adapt - Noise Marines for the stupidly expensive win.

Suck it up.... sounds like a Slaaneshi solution xD

I think a lot of the griping (myself included) based on CSM, Ork, Dark Eldar and so on is relatively on point. Until the codex changes I expect either to see it continue OR, I expect it to disappear as players of those armies disappear.

I'm in the process of finishing touches to my Death Guard models to be sold on ebay, the Dark Eldar are already boxed (only base coated). Once they're gone, I'll probably never talk about them again

Kudos Sir, Kudos.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
@Walfmar: quite true, but it seems these days that every thread is getting de-railed by 'boo hoo, my CSM are rubbish'. Suck it up and adapt - Noise Marines for the stupidly expensive win.

M'kay that's great... But what about us Tzeentch followers? Between a near-useless mark, Thousand Sons and the game's single most abysmally useless magic lore, we're literally at this point about as close to auto-lose as you can get.

I'll stop complaining when;
1. Everyone else bar Sisters players stop *****ing that they have it just as bad or worse than we do... While Orks, Tyranids, DE, IG, BA's, etc... have some equally poor rules, at least they ALL have up-to-date model lines that look great
We have a smoldering turd of a model line that was starting to get on in years, back when the Maple Losers were actually a play-off team!

2. Loyalists especially stop claiming that Helturkies & Sorcerers are OP, WaaC's levels of gaming.

Experiment 626 wrote:
...we're literally at this point about as close to auto-lose as you can get.

One could always field a pure deathwing army with no drop pod dreads.

Dohohoho

No.

It's so beautifully meta. Scores of individuals shunned by the Emperor (GW) with thousands upon thousands of posts burning with malevolent hate and hoping, just one day; the long war will finally be over and Chaos reigns supreme. Then, it will have been worth it.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
...we're literally at this point about as close to auto-lose as you can get.

One could always field a pure deathwing army with no drop pod dreads.

Dohohoho

How about an Unbound army of solo Mutilators?!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
...we're literally at this point about as close to auto-lose as you can get.

One could always field a pure deathwing army with no drop pod dreads.

Dohohoho

How about an Unbound army of solo Mutilators?!

The enemy can at least fail their shots

Haha the only race that many of the codices can win... a race to the bottom xD

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
...we're literally at this point about as close to auto-lose as you can get.

One could always field a pure deathwing army with no drop pod dreads.

Dohohoho

How about an Unbound army of solo Mutilators?!

The enemy can at least fail their shots

Hmmmm... True, Muties might actually survive to do something to 3 Tactical Marines.

What about an entire army of Lv1 MoT Sorcerers?! All the WC's you could ever dream of, and nothing to cast!

 Wulfmar wrote:
Haha the only race that many of the codices can win... a race to the bottom xD

Playing Chaos is basically admitting to being 40k's equivalent of Leafs fans...

Deathwing actually invoke the auto-loss rule in the codex

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Deathwing actually invoke the auto-loss rule in the codex

Deathwing still have models though.

Apparently we don't anymore: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marines
(Canadian site is listed as 'No Longer Available' as well, though click on the unit, and apparently they're still for sale...)

I guess we can always argue now that our basic Troops get Invisibility as standard, since you don't even physically see them now?!

Probably getting repackaged with 32mms

Remember the last time they did this and increased the price by 2 bucks without adding anything? I am so glad I already have a few hundred CSM marines.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Probably getting repackaged with 32mms

Remember the last time they did this and increased the price by 2 bucks without adding anything? I am so glad I already have a few hundred CSM marines.

They already got repacked to the 32mm's - check out the photo of the box itself, clearly on 32's.

If I were an optimist, I'd say that here's hoping GW is going to spend the next 8-10 months purging the entirety of our dumpster fire excuse of a model line, so that we can finally get something that isn't perpetually stuck in 2002.

I get the gripe with CSM, as a NL player myself I would love rules that reflected the force and be able to stand toe-to-toe with Eldar and friends (so remember you god specific players at least you have unit entries for your units.. I still want a Talos or Decimus model, with gang ).

That being said we do get IA:13 and now Renegade Knights which are great

I think I'd be pretty bitter if I was a csm player. So I understand why so many people like to have a moan about it. I have to be honest though, it is a bit like Groundhog Day in here sometimes.

But as others have said, it's not JUST chaos players.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Probably getting repackaged with 32mms

Remember the last time they did this and increased the price by 2 bucks without adding anything? I am so glad I already have a few hundred CSM marines.

Oh this - the reason why they are out of stock is because GW forgot to edit the website and put in a re-direct to the new kit Here

It's all part of the plan

Sorry guys. It's my fault. GW just hates me personally.

I gave up on Necrons. Only after that did they bring out a new Necron book.

I still hold hope for my Sisters and Tzeentch Chaos.

Still holding... still nothing.

Clearly it's just a personal vendetta against me.

 General Kroll wrote:
I think I'd be pretty bitter if I was a csm player. So I understand why so many people like to have a moan about it. I have to be honest though, it is a bit like Groundhog Day in here sometimes.

But as others have said, it's not JUST chaos players.

The thing that really gets the Chaos community riled up the most, is the fact that most people in general seem to either forget, or else choose to outright ignore that;
1. We used to have unique, fluffy rules for Legions. Us wanting what would be a modernised version of Chapter Tactics, but Chaos flavoured has absolutely nothing to do with simply wanting to be 'Marines +1' as numerous Loyalists fans try and claim. We just want our old rules given back to us - especially since the supposedly rigidly inflexible & stagnant Imperials somehow get rules now for every single special snowflake Chapter & Company!

2. We're the only army who continually lose options, and/or, get to watch as everyone and their mother walk off with what was a unique Chaos rule/ability.

The vast majority of Chaos players aren't crying out for OP rules that will turn us into Loyalists/Eldar x10. We just want equal treatment, both rules wise and especially model line wise.

Sadly, it seems at times that the prevailing beliefs are that Chaos don't deserve nice things, because if we want toys, then we should just go and play Loyalist Marines and be done with it...
What people are completely ignorant of however, is that Chaos Marines at their core, are still basic Space Marines
Thus, we absolutely need similar basic rules that are Chaos equivalents to the rules that Loyalists receive, otherwise we are left with an MEQ army that simply won't function no matter what we try and do!

Look at the Chaos Land Raider as the perfect example of why Chaos Marines suck so hard right now. On a basic level, it simply doesn't function AT ALL, because it lacks its old Infernal Device rule. Losing that one rule has turned it into an unplayable waste of pts, as on a basic level, the core rules of the game prevent it from functioning.

And yet when Chaos players voice their reasons, it typically just gets hand waved away as petulant whinning because we're not OP, and/or, that we deserve our fate because of the 3.5 book.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
I think I'd be pretty bitter if I was a csm player. So I understand why so many people like to have a moan about it. I have to be honest though, it is a bit like Groundhog Day in here sometimes.

But as others have said, it's not JUST chaos players.

The thing that really gets the Chaos community riled up the most, is the fact that most people in general seem to either forget, or else choose to outright ignore that;
1. We used to have unique, fluffy rules for Legions. Us wanting what would be a modernised version of Chapter Tactics, but Chaos flavoured has absolutely nothing to do with simply wanting to be 'Marines +1' as numerous Loyalists fans try and claim. We just want our old rules given back to us - especially since the supposedly rigidly inflexible & stagnant Imperials somehow get rules now for every single special snowflake Chapter & Company!

2. We're the only army who continually lose options, and/or, get to watch as everyone and their mother walk off with what was a unique Chaos rule/ability.

The vast majority of Chaos players aren't crying out for OP rules that will turn us into Loyalists/Eldar x10. We just want equal treatment, both rules wise and especially model line wise.

Sadly, it seems at times that the prevailing beliefs are that Chaos don't deserve nice things, because if we want toys, then we should just go and play Loyalist Marines and be done with it...
What people are completely ignorant of however, is that Chaos Marines at their core, are still basic Space Marines
Thus, we absolutely need similar basic rules that are Chaos equivalents to the rules that Loyalists receive, otherwise we are left with an MEQ army that simply won't function no matter what we try and do!

Look at the Chaos Land Raider as the perfect example of why Chaos Marines suck so hard right now. On a basic level, it simply doesn't function AT ALL, because it lacks its old Infernal Device rule. Losing that one rule has turned it into an unplayable waste of pts, as on a basic level, the core rules of the game prevent it from functioning.

And yet when Chaos players voice their reasons, it typically just gets hand waved away as petulant whinning because we're not OP, and/or, that we deserve our fate because of the 3.5 book.

You're preaching to the choir buddy. I'd probably start a Choas army if they got the kind of Dark Eldar overhaul that you are wishing for.

In all honesty, I don't even really care how good/awful any new rules would potentially turn out.

I just want a model line that isn't a pile of steaming horse gak that's been stinking up the shelves since circa 2002 or thereabouts!

You look at our basic Marines, and then compare them to even the basics like Ork Boyz, Dark Eldar or Tau Fire Warriors, and they look like hot garbage... Only basic Guardsmen are on a level that's as awful as our 100% 'squat & take a dump' basic marines.
On the other hand, the plastic Termies look pretty ace, (one of the few kits that do look good), but then you open the box and realise that you can't build anything remotely close to a usable unit, as it's only missing about 80% of the unit's actual options!

Loyalist players especially love to whine endlessly about how they don't get enough Grav weaponry, Combi's and/or get too many Missile launchers, etc... in their kits.
I dare them to try and build a semblance of even a 1000pts CSM army with just basic upgrades, without resorting to looting a bunch of Imperial kits and/or spending heinous amounts of added cash on FW/4x Havoc boxes, etc...

As a die hard Sisters player my only real complaints are lack of model support, lack of options, and basic troops are about 1 or 2 points too expensive. There are 2 completely useless units but the rest of the tiny little Codex is actually really good and should be considered middle tier.

As for you heretics, everything you have is seriously outclassed by the Loyalists and I feel for ya.

I tasted Godhood once. I wish to taste it again.

As a player of Nids, Sisters of Battle, and Chaos, I feel I'm entitled to whine. But I would not whine if I did not feel passionately about all three armies. As much as GW has irked me in the past, I still love the hobby and a great deal of its rich history.

My sisters being sort of bad I don't mind, oddly enough. I think in lore it's because I almost expect them to suck. They never seemed to justify the hardcore military support structure of say the Imperial Guard or skill of the Space Marines.

Tyranids being lousy is just painful :( Evolutionary wonders they are not... but placing thousands of gribblies on a table and watching them blown to pieces never bothers me. I know in my head that this was just wave one of fifty. I do wish there were more rules for never ending swarms. Units of 20+ hormagaunts or termagants come back from the dead on a 4+ or regen on all monstrous creatures... the feel of an unending tide

Chaos on the other hand, I always felt should be threatening, and should be terrifying to face. I don't like their old dirty tricks like Lash of Submission, or the whole army can infiltrate shenanigans of the Alpha Legion, but there's no reason they can't be a horrifying nightmare to encounter. They should be an apex foe.

Or maybe not. I'm known to ramble

 Norn Queen Yurei wrote:
As a player of Nids, Sisters of Battle, and Chaos, I feel I'm entitled to whine. But I would not whine if I did not feel passionately about all three armies. As much as GW has irked me in the past, I still love the hobby and a great deal of its rich history.

My sisters being sort of bad I don't mind, oddly enough. I think in lore it's because I almost expect them to suck. They never seemed to justify the hardcore military support structure of say the Imperial Guard or skill of the Space Marines.

Tyranids being lousy is just painful :( Evolutionary wonders they are not... but placing thousands of gribblies on a table and watching them blown to pieces never bothers me. I know in my head that this was just wave one of fifty. I do wish there were more rules for never ending swarms. Units of 20+ hormagaunts or termagants come back from the dead on a 4+ or regen on all monstrous creatures... the feel of an unending tide

Chaos on the other hand, I always felt should be threatening, and should be terrifying to face. I don't like their old dirty tricks like Lash of Submission, or the whole army can infiltrate shenanigans of the Alpha Legion, but there's no reason they can't be a horrifying nightmare to encounter. They should be an apex foe.

Or maybe not. I'm known to ramble

Tyranids, Chaos and recently Eldar/Dark Eldar though I actually love the Dark Eldar side of it far more than the Craftworlders.

I sure know how to pick them.

Ultimately? It's already been stated.

Chaos doesn't want to be Uber +1. We don't want to be Autowin (though it'd be nice).

We really just want the flavour and variety in army builds we once had - that was taken away from us, handed to the Imperials and then we were fed a remarkably bland and lacklustre late 4th ed Codex/early 5th ed Codex that seemed to have been written by Gav Thorpe on his last day before shoving away from the Design Studio. Sure, we all thought that FNP on Plague Marines was amazing. It was. For all of a month and then the new edition hit and FNP got slapped on the nose and boy, were we left out in the cold. People could argue that Dark Angels and Eldar were equally as bland....sure, they were.

And then Orks happened. Followed by SPEHS MARINES (seriously, started playing that game, could not believe my ears how SPEHS MARINE is shouted like every other line of dialogue. Holy feth). And hey, what;s that? Grey Knights?

Seeing all our stripped away options being handed out to EVERYONE ELSE was a slap in the face.

6th ed. wasn't better. It has all the design mistakes of the last book coupled with following books power ramping so hard it was unreal. Tau? Eldar? Really?

And now outside of Sisters with their languishing digital only codex we have the oldest pile of gak. Our model range is a travesty - we still have resin or plastic-resin hybrids for so many parts of our range it's unreal. We're actually missing options too. Let's go through the book, shall we?

Now before we start - generally, the only acceptable things to exist in Resin/Metal are units that are unique or one offs - special characters or unique creatures (like the Avatar). So we have no need to dip into those. Fair enough.

HQ

Chaos Lords - hoo boy. Plastic Terminator Lord kit. No plastic PA Lord kit. Only plastic PA lord is in Dark Vengeance and monopose at that. Any other PA lord is Finecast or Metal and direct only.

Chaos Sorcerers - hoo boy again. Plastic Terminator kit. No plastic PA Sorcerer kit. Only PA sorcerers are Finecast.

Daemon Prince - can't fault this. Plastic kit.

Warpsmith - Finecast folks. And only one version of him from GW themselves.

Dark Apostle - More Finecast folks!


TROOPS

Chaos Space Marines - Model kit dating back to before the 3.5 codex. Has had a grand total of 1 update (5th ed. Codex) which ALSO took away the mutation sprue. Currently unavailable.

Cultists - Sigh. Our options are... either buy sets from Dark Vengeance, try to make complete squads from overpriced boxes of 5 that have MIXED WEAPONS and don't include leaders or special/heavy weapons OR buy a £28 box that again has MIXED weapons with no leaders or special/heavy weapons AND a monopose plastic CSM champion. Eitherway the models are all still monopose snapfits. I don't count this as actually being part of the range. If the only way you can get the squad and its options is from starter sets then it's taking the .

Rhinos - Plastic kit, old as the Imperial equivalent with a spiky sprue. Okay?

ELITES

Chosen - Monopose snapfits from Dark Vengeance again. Now before you give me the old chestnut of converting them up from normal CSMs...let me just point out that Loyalists have had models for Veterans (which these are our equivalent of) since 4th ed be it in metal, resin or plastic. Another hole in the range.

Possessed - Okay, we have a kit for these in plastic. Quality is questionable but it exists.

Terminators - Sigh. We have a kit, which doesn't include all the options to field a standard 5 man barebones squad. We don't have enough power weapons or combi-bolters. We have a laughable lack of options too - no single LCs, no paired LCs, no combi-plasmas. Imagine buying a 5 man SM Combat Squad that only gave you 3 bolters. This is what we have here for our Elites.

Helbrute - Plastic kit for this too. Okay. Love or hate the aesthetic, it exists.

Mutilators - Do you like Finecast? Oh boy oh boy.

Khorne Berserkers - Plastic kit that pre-dates the 3.5 codex. Yes, it is that old. Even older than the CSM squad. It also lacks Champion options.

Thousand Sons - Finecast upgrade pack from direct. Yes, Finecast-plastic hybrids. Dates to the 3.5 Codex.

Noise Marines - Another Finecast upgrade pack from direct dating to the 3.5 Codex.

Plague Marines - Finecast, dating to the 3.5 codex.


FAST ATTACK

Chaos Bikers - Plastic Kit for a single bike...or a squad of 3. No upgrade options. Used to have a Finecast upgrade option but that too is gone.

Raptors/Warp Talons - Our first dual kit! Yay! Plastic kit. Has some options.

Chaos Spawn - Plastic kit. NOT ACTUALLY LISTED ON THE CSM SECTION. You have to dig through AOS to find them. When released was £12 for 2. Now £25.

Heldrake - Plastic kit, exists regardless of whether you like the aesthetic.

HEAVY SUPPORT

Havocs - Used to be a metal/plastic hybrid kit, now all finecast. Dates back to the 3.5 codex era. Only has ONE of each weapon. No way to order weapons individually from the webstore anymore. Looks like...if you want a squad of 4 (anything but a heavy bolter) they want you to buy 4 boxes. GENIUS.

Obliterators - Finecast kit. Dates back to the 3.5 era. Noticing a trend?

Defiler - Plastic kit, dates back to 3.5 era, no option for the power fist.

Forgefiend/Maulerfiend - Our second dual kit. Plastic.

Land Raider - Plastic kit, as per the Rhino.

Predator - Ditto.

Vindicator - Ditto.


So, in total...

We haven't really got models for Chosen and Cultists, we're stuck using Finecast hybrids for Thousand Sons and Noise Marines, we're stuck with Finecast for vast chunks of our range, it's dated back to 3rd edition for the most part and some of our newer kits don't even have our full lot of options to run a barebones unit.

When you consider that the SM Tactical Squad has been released in 3rd ed, recut for 4th ed, recut again for 5th ed and redone altogether for 6th ed....

And the CSM squad was....released in 3rd ed, recut for 5th ed......and that's it.

The neglect is real.