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Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking before that stuff. None of that used to exist.

ohh you mean like 3025?

Yeah. The original original game. It was in a box. The fluff even stated that their technology had gone backwards. Which is the opposite of what actually happens during a war.

in fairness we've never experianced a generations long total war employing WMDs.

also keep in mind that Comstar was sabotoging any attempts to advance the tech level

But with multiple planets, it wouldn't matter.

Comstar was a stupid plot device. Someone would have invented a new communication system or just said feth it and nuked the gak out of Earth.

If you can't tell, I really dislike retro-future stories. Because they are pretty much impossible. Even Dune acknowledged this with the Ixians.

someone DID invent another communications device, the fedcom's Black boxes, developed in the 3020s.

I don't know the expanded lore that well. I just know the initial premise.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know the expanded lore that well. I just know the initial premise.

I've actually won lore arguements with some of the writers in the past

FASA was always a sloppy company. Doesn't surprise me at all.

But the whole Imperium that holds everyone down only works with something like spice melange in play. And the Ixians eventually figured out how to get around that as well.

Martel732 wrote:
FASA was always a sloppy company. Doesn't surprise me at all.

Don't even get me started on how absurd the entire FedCom Civil war was.

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
FASA was always a sloppy company. Doesn't surprise me at all.

Don't even get me started on how absurd the entire FedCom Civil war was.

I heard about it in passing. I stopped playing when the Clans showed up and the Inner Sphere didn't go straight to all nukes all the time. I know they are trying to sell a game, but come on. Realistically, if Battlemechs were such hot gak, they'd have been nuked as well. Which they weren't because and equal ISC value of tanks always won. Stupid game, stupid setting.

Martel732 wrote:


Yeah. The original original game. It was in a box. The fluff even stated that their technology had gone backwards. Which is the opposite of what actually happens during a war.

Except of course when it does...

Human history is not a single arrow going upwards, it has had dips and turns and regressions.

During WWII the Soviets did not have enough rifled barrels to equip all their conscripts so they took long rifles and cut them in half to make SMGs.

In order to focus on domestic problems the Ming Dynasty in China ordered their advanced ocean-going ships destroyed and forbid people from producing new ones.

For something like 1000 years after the fall of Rome no one in Europe could build a dome. Stone masonry regressed to the point that Christian churches cannabalized statues from Pagan temples to use for saints.

Mesoamerica had highly developed stone work, agriculture and social organization. But metal working was confined to jewelry. And they didn't have the wheel.

Today there is no rocket on Earth capable of lifting a manned ship out of low orbit. If we found the cure to cancer and a mountain of unreleased Beatles albums on the moon we could not get there to get them! Not for a while at least. There's also no reusable manned space craft left on Earth.

There's lots of examples of technology being lost, forgotten or abandoned, and during war you focus on what you need. And one reason I really like 40k is the writers, when at their best, really ground the universe in history.

So there's only war. And you're a high-ranking Imperial official. Should we have dozens of workshops and mines around the Imperium drop everything to make 10 suits of termi armor? Or should we crank out a million suits of carapace armor? When the wolves are at the door you go for quantity over quality.

Should worlds be able to mass produce termi armor? Well how many suits can 21st Century Earth produce? None. It's a made up technology. So what if essential components are vanishingly rare, like a few grams per star system or one star system out of thousands?

As for whether Marines could be relevant in a planetary or galactic war, for me what makes them scary is not termi armor or power armor or even 10' supermen. It's drop pods. Sure there might only be 100 marines in this theater of war, but they can go anywhere with pinpoint accuracy. They can drop into the courtyard of the rebel governor's summer palace and overwhelm his household guards long before his million man traitor army can even mobilize. I just assume that every battle with marines also has millions of guardsmen/PDF/Whatever fighting off stage, but the marines are at the battle's climax where their slightly better stats and weapons are just enough to turn the tide.

Is our game of supermen versus space demons in Space Stalingrad a bastion of hard-hitting realism? No. Based on where we are today it seems like the future of war is remote drones vs guerrillas with RPGs. And 38,000 years from now? Who knows. Maybe immortal AI-human hybrids killing whole planets with nano-tech deconstructors. Maybe savages beating each other with rocks on a world with an average temperature of 140 degrees. Probably won't involve WWI trench warfare though.

But 40k still has just enough of a historical veneer to keep things more interesting than, say, Star Frontiers.

"So what if essential components are vanishingly rare"

You'd make something else.

Martel732 wrote:
"So what if essential components are vanishingly rare"

You'd make something else.

And if something else isn't as good, you don't have terminator armor. You get power armor. Or some 2+ armor that reduces your WS and I to 1 because it's clumsy. Or whatever.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"So what if essential components are vanishingly rare"

You'd make something else.

And if something else isn't as good, you don't have terminator armor. You get power armor. Or some 2+ armor that reduces your WS and I to 1 because it's clumsy. Or whatever.

It's looking like the strongest materials are made from humble carbon anyway. 40K needs the unobtanium trope to make their story remotely workable. I understand what they're going for. I just was never into that much and I'm probably burned out on grimdark at this point.

The sad part is that terminator armor isn't even that good. There's so many weapons that go right through it in the game. I wouldn't bother fielding it as a marine chapter.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"So what if essential components are vanishingly rare"

You'd make something else.

And if something else isn't as good, you don't have terminator armor. You get power armor. Or some 2+ armor that reduces your WS and I to 1 because it's clumsy. Or whatever.

It's looking like the strongest materials are made from humble carbon anyway. 40K needs the unobtanium trope to make their story remotely workable. I understand what they're going for. I just was never into that much and I'm probably burned out on grimdark at this point.

The sad part is that terminator armor isn't even that good. There's so many weapons that go right through it in the game. I wouldn't bother fielding it as a marine chapter.

except Martel the "board game" meta isn't the same as the "in universe meta" if 99% of your battl;es where against poorly armed traitor guard, and Orks, would you still say that?

Martel732 wrote:


The sad part is that terminator armor isn't even that good. There's so many weapons that go right through it in the game. I wouldn't bother fielding it as a marine chapter.

You'd be missing out on all the other benefits- stabilised weapons on a platform that can be reliably teleported.
There is a laundry list of tech in terminator suits but the stuff that is not present in power armour (at all) is the teleporty bits and the capacity to fire heavy weapons on the move without penalty.
Consider how rare teleport homers are in SM armies but every terminator suit is supposed to come with one to facilitate recall.

You could just sit on your power armoured hands and not fight until your artificers are done refining enough suits to 'almost terminator grade' protection and you could even teleport them into combat. They'll still have to stop and brace to fire their heaviest guns unless you've managed to mooch suspensors off the Deathwatch or Greyknights. And occasionally a few will be eaten by daemons on the way through the warp.

The point of plasmaguns is that we have an antitank weapon in rifle/pistol form- not that terminators are bad at being walking tanks.

Seriously though- As a CM I'd have the chapter forges cranking out stormshields 24/7.

 =Angel= wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


The sad part is that terminator armor isn't even that good. There's so many weapons that go right through it in the game. I wouldn't bother fielding it as a marine chapter.

You'd be missing out on all the other benefits- stabilised weapons on a platform that can be reliably teleported.
There is a laundry list of tech in terminator suits but the stuff that is not present in power armour (at all) is the teleporty bits and the capacity to fire heavy weapons on the move without penalty.
Consider how rare teleport homers are in SM armies but every terminator suit is supposed to come with one to facilitate recall.

You could just sit on your power armoured hands and not fight until your artificers are done refining enough suits to 'almost terminator grade' protection and you could even teleport them into combat. They'll still have to stop and brace to fire their heaviest guns unless you've managed to mooch suspensors off the Deathwatch or Greyknights. And occasionally a few will be eaten by daemons on the way through the warp.

The point of plasmaguns is that we have an antitank weapon in rifle/pistol form- not that terminators are bad at being walking tanks.

Seriously though- As a CM I'd have the chapter forges cranking out stormshields 24/7.

I've often thought that Kaldor Dragio had one of the most intelligent weapon set ups in the IoM, it baffles me (well actually it doesn't, game balance) why we don't see something similer on standard marines. Imagine if you could replace your current crop of terminators with hammernators with wrist mounted storm bolters?

BrianDavion wrote:
I've often thought that Kaldor Dragio had one of the most intelligent weapon set ups in the IoM, it baffles me (well actually it doesn't, game balance) why we don't see something similer on standard marines. Imagine if you could replace your current crop of terminators with hammernators with wrist mounted storm bolters?

For most people it still wouldn't be enough. Terminators need to be equipped with salvo 6/12 grav cannons and be 25 points each before most people would consider them again

I like them, myself. I just painted up 2 squads plus an extra heavy weapon for my Crimson Fists.

I'd settle for assault cannons for all tactical terminators. Still not as good as scat bikes.


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BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"So what if essential components are vanishingly rare"

You'd make something else.

And if something else isn't as good, you don't have terminator armor. You get power armor. Or some 2+ armor that reduces your WS and I to 1 because it's clumsy. Or whatever.

It's looking like the strongest materials are made from humble carbon anyway. 40K needs the unobtanium trope to make their story remotely workable. I understand what they're going for. I just was never into that much and I'm probably burned out on grimdark at this point.

The sad part is that terminator armor isn't even that good. There's so many weapons that go right through it in the game. I wouldn't bother fielding it as a marine chapter.

except Martel the "board game" meta isn't the same as the "in universe meta" if 99% of your battl;es where against poorly armed traitor guard, and Orks, would you still say that?

I spend my time getting my ba face erased by eldar and tau. The universe meta doesn't exist for me. It doesn't matter what gw says unless they codify it in the game. Riptides are supposed to be rare, but somehow every battle is full of them.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd settle for assault cannons for all tactical terminators. Still not as good as scat bikes.

I'd rather the ridiculous exception not become the rule. From there, why not a plasma gun for every Marine? A big shoota or rokkit launcha for every Boy? I mean, sure, we're not Space Elves but can't we have nice things as well?

I spend my time getting my ba face erased by eldar and tau. The universe meta doesn't exist for me. It doesn't matter what gw says unless they codify it in the game. Riptides are supposed to be rare, but somehow every battle is full of them.

I have to ask; if you dislike the background and you dislike the game itself then what keeps you in it? I'm not being snarky, I'm legitimately wondering as it seems you get nothing but misery out of 40K these days.

Martel really should have been born British. XD

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Martel really should have been born British. XD

Doesn't keep enough of a stiff upper lip. A Brit wouldn't complain, he would just soldier on with a hamstrung Codex.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Martel really should have been born British. XD

wouldn't change much: when someone wants to have a victim complex, they'll have a victim complex.

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking before that stuff. None of that used to exist.

ohh you mean like 3025?

Yeah. The original original game. It was in a box. The fluff even stated that their technology had gone backwards. Which is the opposite of what actually happens during a war.

War does not neccessarily lead to technological advancement. In fact, if the period of war is long and destructive enough you will in fact see a huge reduction in technological advancement. Take a look at the Migration Period of European history for example, the Mongol conquests of the Middle East, or several episodes in Chinese history, or the collapse of the Maya civilisation.

 buddha wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the imperium can't even manage this level of coordination, it would be long dissolved.

New technologies would replace the old ones if a production bottleneck occurred. A single planet can discover a ton of gak by itself. Imagine hundreds or thousands. 40ks level of stagnation is impossible.

And that is answered by the mechanicus' stagnant dogma where there is really no such thing as "new technology" allowed to handle something like a bottleneck.

The AdMech allows new technology as long as it is properly sanctified.

Martel732 wrote:

 buddha wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the imperium can't even manage this level of coordination, it would be long dissolved.

New technologies would replace the old ones if a production bottleneck occurred. A single planet can discover a ton of gak by itself. Imagine hundreds or thousands. 40ks level of stagnation is impossible.

And that is answered by the mechanicus' stagnant dogma where there is really no such thing as "new technology" allowed to handle something like a bottleneck.

They'd be ignored. Because that's what humans do. The Mechanicus is also an impossible institution. As I said, 40K's setting really breaks my suspension of disbelief hard. Humans advanced technologically even during the real Dark Ages. Things were lost with Rome and Alexandria, but were known elsewhere or rediscovered.

Europe advanced during the Dark Ages, yes, but it had just suffered a massive setback in technological knowledge and advanced at a glacial pace at best. Likewise, the Imperium in 40k does advance (just take a look at all the new stuff invented since the Heresy), but similarly it only does so at a very slow pace. The most important reason for the slow advancement in both the Dark Ages and in 40k is that when you have to struggle to survive, technological advancement just doesn't have a very high priority. You simply do not have the luxury of spending resources on it.
The AdMech is far from impossible, it is in fact one of the most human and realistic factions in the setting.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Martel really should have been born British. XD

Doesn't keep enough of a stiff upper lip. A Brit wouldn't complain, he would just soldier on with a hamstrung Codex.

You're joking, right?

Complaining about things we love is our number one national hobby.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd settle for assault cannons for all tactical terminators. Still not as good as scat bikes.

I'd rather the ridiculous exception not become the rule. From there, why not a plasma gun for every Marine? A big shoota or rokkit launcha for every Boy? I mean, sure, we're not Space Elves but can't we have nice things as well?

I spend my time getting my ba face erased by eldar and tau. The universe meta doesn't exist for me. It doesn't matter what gw says unless they codify it in the game. Riptides are supposed to be rare, but somehow every battle is full of them.

I have to ask; if you dislike the background and you dislike the game itself then what keeps you in it? I'm not being snarky, I'm legitimately wondering as it seems you get nothing but misery out of 40K these days.

I've always largely ignored the background. I guess it's mostly inertia at this point. I'm not buying into any other model games, so this is kind of it. Plus, it's much easier to get a game of this than anything else.

As for the assault cannons, terminators are on foot and aren't troops. Tactical terminators are worse than useless at the moment as well. It's not ridiculous. The game already has a boatload of S6. Why not give some old models a boost? As it stands, terminator armor is utter trash for the cost.

If you largely ignore the background, why are you so set on derailing a thread in the background section with your constant whining?

Because it's one of those concepts that is more universal: mass production. It has nothing to do with absurd space primarch babies and other GW made up plot devices.

Fwiw I really liked the idea someone else up thread said about the armour being a knock off compared to what they used to be able to produce, while original suits are so old and worn out that they aren't anywhere near as effective as they used to be.

I always thought the scythes of the emperor short stories were an interesting read as they go into how materials are so hard to come for in 40k. Where they have four salvaged suits of terminator armour and are hoping to find a fifth for a codex approved squad. Also the fact that they have some of the materials needed to build their chapter (geneseed) is met by distrust from outside observers.

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking before that stuff. None of that used to exist.

ohh you mean like 3025?

Yeah. The original original game. It was in a box. The fluff even stated that their technology had gone backwards. Which is the opposite of what actually happens during a war.

in fairness we've never experianced a generations long total war employing WMDs.

also keep in mind that Comstar was sabotoging any attempts to advance the tech level

But with multiple planets, it wouldn't matter.

Comstar was a stupid plot device. Someone would have invented a new communication system or just said feth it and nuked the gak out of Earth.

If you can't tell, I really dislike retro-future stories. Because they are pretty much impossible. Even Dune acknowledged this with the Ixians.

Comstar had access to Star League technology and equipment, and controlled the practical means of interstellar communication. So, it's not a stretch that Comstar was able to pull it off.

It wasn't until Hanse Davion got wise to their gak and decided to troll them, that endgame for Comstar's supremacy was just a matter of time.


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Martel732 wrote:

 buddha wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If the imperium can't even manage this level of coordination, it would be long dissolved.

New technologies would replace the old ones if a production bottleneck occurred. A single planet can discover a ton of gak by itself. Imagine hundreds or thousands. 40ks level of stagnation is impossible.

And that is answered by the mechanicus' stagnant dogma where there is really no such thing as "new technology" allowed to handle something like a bottleneck.

They'd be ignored. Because that's what humans do. The Mechanicus is also an impossible institution. As I said, 40K's setting really breaks my suspension of disbelief hard. Humans advanced technologically even during the real Dark Ages. Things were lost with Rome and Alexandria, but were known elsewhere or rediscovered.

It's the same impossible situation present in Battletech. A lazy excuse for a setting.

40K's Imperium would be gone in a few generations, tops. Regardless of what GW's fluff says.

The Mechanicus does get ignored if necessity dictates it. That's why you have "unsanctioned" variants being developed like the Stormsword and Thunderer. Sometimes, due to fait accompli (what's done is done, and the variant was a rousing success), they enter regular production. It's frowned upon. But there is nothing the Machine Cult's orthodoxy can really do about it.

Then there's the manufacturing arm of the Titanicus. They have to take design liberties with each new Titan produced. But the need for new God-Engines causes the traditionalist to look the other way.

So, the Mechanicus can be practical when it's called for. And not everybody marches in perfect lock-step with their dogma.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking before that stuff. None of that used to exist.

ohh you mean like 3025?

Yeah. The original original game. It was in a box. The fluff even stated that their technology had gone backwards. Which is the opposite of what actually happens during a war.

in fairness we've never experianced a generations long total war employing WMDs.

also keep in mind that Comstar was sabotoging any attempts to advance the tech level

But with multiple planets, it wouldn't matter.

Comstar was a stupid plot device. Someone would have invented a new communication system or just said feth it and nuked the gak out of Earth.

If you can't tell, I really dislike retro-future stories. Because they are pretty much impossible. Even Dune acknowledged this with the Ixians.

Comstar had access to Star League technology and equipment, and controlled the practical means of interstellar communication. So, it's not a stretch that Comstar was able to pull it off.

It wasn't until Hanse Davion got wise to their gak and decided to troll them, that endgame for Comstar's supremacy was just a matter of time.

more importantly, Houses Davion and Steiner developed the Black Box (based off some tech Morgen Kell and Katrina Steiner discovered in the Periphary) which meant when Comstar Inevitably tried to do a "we control communications" screw over it didn't work so good. the 4th sucession war saw Comstar cut HPG access to the fedcom, and the fedcom kept on trucking, and the 3030s saw an oturight shadow war between Comstar and the FedCom nations.

As long as people can understand that terrible plots/silliness is precisely what allows us to have our wargames. No wargame (fictional at least) has a brilliant logical backstory. If they did it would be mostly politics, espionage, and WMDs and economic warfare.

That stuff sucks on a table filled with toy soldiers. These are fictitious wargames, not novels. We actually need the silliness/absurdity of the plot/fluff to justify the ability to put plastic and metal on the table and push it around, rolling dice.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Important to consider is their sheer demand. Every single Chapter wants more Terminator armour, all the time. The lion's share of that is probably going to go to the First and Second Foundings.

So the "value" of Terminator armour in an economic sense is very, very high. Demand is extremely high while supply is extremely low. A Chapter might get a resupply of ten fresh Terminator suits every 1000 years, for a made up example. Even just receiving shipments of parts is extremely valuable. This means that Terminator suits have to be regarded as precious relics, treated with the best possible maintenance and care because they can't just requisition new ones whenever they feel like it (unless they're the Grey Knights).
/quote]
I always wondered with Space Hulk if it was the best use of termies. Ooh a pile of space junk, better send out elites in expensive armour. In a universe where planets will be virus bombed for the risk of a chaos taint it seems much more likely just to blow it up. Or use a tractor beam to pull it into a star. Genestealer risk over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I messed up the quote there and the stupid iphone won't let me edit my post. It was supposed to look like this. Sorry for repeat :

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Important to consider is their sheer demand. Every single Chapter wants more Terminator armour, all the time. The lion's share of that is probably going to go to the First and Second Foundings.

So the "value" of Terminator armour in an economic sense is very, very high. Demand is extremely high while supply is extremely low. A Chapter might get a resupply of ten fresh Terminator suits every 1000 years, for a made up example. Even just receiving shipments of parts is extremely valuable. This means that Terminator suits have to be regarded as precious relics, treated with the best possible maintenance and care because they can't just requisition new ones whenever they feel like it (unless they're the Grey Knights).

I always wondered with Space Hulk if it was the best use of termies. Ooh a pile of space junk, better send out elites in expensive armour. In a universe where planets will be virus bombed for the risk of a chaos taint it seems much more likely just to blow it up. Or use a tractor beam to pull it into a star. Genestealer risk over.