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Because the fluff accounts for more than 75% of every codex and rule book and allows GW to charge $50-100 a book.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Skimming over this a few things i wanted to cover.

Its not from reverse engineering as such an idea is heretical and not allowed. Machines are viewed as living things and to take it apart is to destroy it and is evil.

From what i remember in lore, mind you this is a bit rusty. Like many have said, TDA was adapted from a maintenance suit, as an aside i heard it was originally created by the squats and adapted from their mining suits but thats neither here nor there.

I dont think there is any issue with creating more, as people have said it can be done BUT what i do not understand is how they continue to make the crux terminous

The crux termonus is said to contain a shard of the emperor armor in it, which is where they get their invul save from, so unless terra just has a big freaking pile of shards from his armor, im not sure how those keep getting manufactured.

could be multiple things. one theory could be that there actually is a piece of the bug E's armor in there but much like homeopathic medicine it is next to zero. if I take a single nail and smelt it in with 500 lb of iron, then churn it all together to the point where a bit of that metal would be in every single ingot, then I took each of those ingots and threw them into vats of 500lb each then continued that across 500 loads... how much of the nail is in each load (nearly none) and yet it would be true that the nail is a part of every iron bar now.

the other idea (note both can be true and not mutually exclusive) is that the big E is sort of a chaos god but the god of disbelief and he protects his most deserving and proven warriors (notice the save is the same ads a demons, but that could also be coincidence)

yet another is that humans like the orks are inherently psychic so the crux saves them because the believe it will, much like the admech believes the rituals somehow make the tanks and armor work and it actually might be helping imbue a sort of ethereal power into the machines.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"40k as a game would not function (nevermind how badly it might function already) if it had to be true to fluff."

Which makes the fluff meaningless.

How does that make the fluff meaningless?

Because Eldar making marines disappear off the table with no effort is what the game experience is. What the fluff says about marines doesn't prevent mass slaughters at the hands of Eldar or Tau. Terminators die to shotguns because the fluff saying they don't doesn't stop shotguns from being able to make players take their terminators off the table. The fluff has no consequence on the game experience. Therefore, the fluff is meaningless in practice.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"40k as a game would not function (nevermind how badly it might function already) if it had to be true to fluff."

Which makes the fluff meaningless.

How does that make the fluff meaningless?

Because Eldar making marines disappear off the table with no effort is what the game experience is. What the fluff says about marines doesn't prevent mass slaughters at the hands of Eldar or Tau. Terminators die to shotguns because the fluff saying they don't doesn't stop shotguns from being able to make players take their terminators off the table. The fluff has no consequence on the game experience. Therefore, the fluff is meaningless in practice.

That's ridiculous and stupid. First that's what your horrid area does not everyone's. Second I can still enjoy the fluff regardless of the game therefore it has a meaning. Stop trolling the background forum.

Eldar also do it in ITC and any competitive setting.

I don't see any fluff justification for their ability to do so. You can enjoy the fluff (which I don't), but that's different than it having meaning.

If the models were specifically designed to work like they did in the fluff, like in a historical game, then the fluff would indeed have meaning.

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar also do it in ITC and any competitive setting.

I don't see any fluff justification for their ability to do so. You can enjoy the fluff (which I don't), but that's different than it having meaning.

If the models were specifically designed to work like they did in the fluff, like in a historical game, then the fluff would indeed have meaning.

Oddly that's exactly what a lot of the Eldar models do.

Then why are you on a background forum?

It strikes me as odd that you don't like the background, hate the game, have no positive outlook whatsoever yet still play 40k.

Unfortunately, 40k is very much a universe of 'narrative extremes' which are often invoked just to prove how badass the story protagonists are.

Otherwise, Space marines would have a statline roughly akin to the Movie Marines army list, tyranids and orks would get to deploy odds of 200-to-1 plus against any other army, Dark Eldar would require you deploy in the middle of the table facing the wrong way, and Eldar would allow you to play each game twenty times and decide which result you liked.

Unfortunately, that's not especially workable for a tabletop game. Making someone who wants to play Imperial Guard paint 100 times the models of a space marine player is a bit unfair. So 'fluff accuracy' gets sacrificed (in theory) for playability.

The problem is that the game has balance issues. And the background board is not really the place to complain about them.

That's because fluff wouldn't make for much of a game. Even basic POWER ARMOUR makes marine basically impervious to small arms(autoguns, lasguns, even bolter struggles). How interesting game would be where say basic marine is T5 with 2+ rerollable save?

Actually, it'd be Inquisitor. Which was fun, but kind of impractical for a large scale game. Marines were terrifying (and, as noted, largely immune to small arms fire), but beatable - but largely through a combination of highly skilled characters and devious tricks by players. Or headshots.

It would be fine if marines costed 80 points and had a rapid fire RPG w str 6 ap4 assault 6 profile.

Once again, not far from the 'Movie Marines' army list - bolters were essentially the statline of an assault cannon, as I recall.

Besides Martell, as I said, how fun would it be for say a IG player if they literally with their infantry weapons could not kill basic infantry? yes Terminator armor can be overcome by mass firepower but that's more at this point a flaw with the basic D6 system.

Fine.....if the terminators are in numbers and price associated with dreadnoughts. Unfortunately, whilst that's do-able 'points-wise', it's still not entirely reasonable to make the guard player buy 25 guardsman models to one terminator model - as in, actual cash.



So....anyway - terminator plate.

As to why marines board spacehulks at all- they are not just space borne refuse- they are amalgamations of human and alien ships going back millennia.
They are treasure troves of lost technology, artifacts and weapons- literally the scifi equivalent of dungeons filled with loot.
They are also filled with monsters and often materialise on crash courses with imperial worlds and need to be diverted.

Indeed. There are standing orders to investigate any hulk encountered, and some chapters (like the Reclaimers) specialise in what can essentially be described as 'combat salvage'

The bit about a fragment of the Emperor's armour in every Terminator suit is not actually true. You do realise this, yes?

There was terminator armour before there were shards of the Emperor's armour to put in them.

Indeed. And the built-in forcefield generator was actually better in the older Cataphractii plate. But the Crux Terminatus badge is specifically the bit that's supposed to contain a piece of the emperor's gold armour, and that was added to post-heresy designs. It's not what's responsible for the invulnerable save, might not even actually make a difference in real terms, but as far as we know for loyalist terminators it's potentially there.

Besides, everyone who knows anything knows that the true shards of the Emperor's armour are enshrined in the Praesidium Protectiva, a group of special Storm Shields entrusted to the Adepta Sororitas for safekeeping

Once again, I don't imagine the shards are very big. Also, it'd be interesting to know where they were/who had them between the aftermath of the heresy and when Vandire took office.

Realistically, if Battlemechs were such hot gak, they'd have been nuked as well.

Steve Jackson calls it the "Ogre Limit" (named after the board game) - the biggest and most powerful a 'battlefield war engine' can be before it becomes worth specifically using strategic weapons (nukes, orbital gunfire, etc) on them.

You're joking, right?

Complaining about things we love is our number one national hobby.

I shall write a strongly worded letter to The Times about this!

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar also do it in ITC and any competitive setting.

I don't see any fluff justification for their ability to do so. You can enjoy the fluff (which I don't), but that's different than it having meaning.

If the models were specifically designed to work like they did in the fluff, like in a historical game, then the fluff would indeed have meaning.

Oddly that's exactly what a lot of the Eldar models do.

Then why are you on a background forum?

It strikes me as odd that you don't like the background, hate the game, have no positive outlook whatsoever yet still play 40k.

Eldar have been OP in the game consistently forever, regardless of their fluff. The fluff claims they are a "dying race", but yet have infinite Wraithknights and scatterbikes in practice. Their codex does NOT reflect the "dying race" part AT ALL.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar also do it in ITC and any competitive setting.

I don't see any fluff justification for their ability to do so. You can enjoy the fluff (which I don't), but that's different than it having meaning.

If the models were specifically designed to work like they did in the fluff, like in a historical game, then the fluff would indeed have meaning.

Oddly that's exactly what a lot of the Eldar models do.

Then why are you on a background forum?

It strikes me as odd that you don't like the background, hate the game, have no positive outlook whatsoever yet still play 40k.

No, no, no. You dont get it. FLUFF is the thing GW sells to you to justify their high cost. GW uses FLUFF to fill your tiny mind full of Mat Ward level of absurdity. Fluff is the thing that makes your codex cost $50 not the hard cover or the ink. Fluff is an excuse to explain the failings of the rules. The fluff is just nonsense drivel that you mindlessly eat up.

Players like you are the reason why people turn to ultra competitive play. They see this guy, with his fluffy army who thinks he is better than competitive players because he limits himself based on preconceived notions by an author who knows absolutely 0% of how the game works. Then the fluffy player has the nerve to come here in the rules proposal section and post some over powered rules for his army believeing it is all right because of the fluff he read.

I dont like you people who like the fluff.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar also do it in ITC and any competitive setting.

I don't see any fluff justification for their ability to do so. You can enjoy the fluff (which I don't), but that's different than it having meaning.

If the models were specifically designed to work like they did in the fluff, like in a historical game, then the fluff would indeed have meaning.

Oddly that's exactly what a lot of the Eldar models do.

Then why are you on a background forum?

It strikes me as odd that you don't like the background, hate the game, have no positive outlook whatsoever yet still play 40k.

Eldar have been OP in the game consistently forever, regardless of their fluff. The fluff claims they are a "dying race", but yet have infinite Wraithknights and scatterbikes in practice. Their codex does NOT reflect the "dying race" part AT ALL.

elder were weak in 5th, towards the bottom but in all other editions they have been powerful, but that is not really the background more tabletop. as for the dying race the wraith constructs are proof of I, they actually have to field their dead in soul stones attached to psychic constructs. They have she who thirsts constantly after them trying to eat as many elder soul goodness as she/he can get ahold of

"They have she who thirsts constantly after them trying to eat as many elder soul goodness as she/he can get ahold of"

Too bad for Slaneesh the Eldar can thrash her armies trivially with the almighty scatterlaser.

Grief wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar also do it in ITC and any competitive setting.

I don't see any fluff justification for their ability to do so. You can enjoy the fluff (which I don't), but that's different than it having meaning.

If the models were specifically designed to work like they did in the fluff, like in a historical game, then the fluff would indeed have meaning.

Oddly that's exactly what a lot of the Eldar models do.

Then why are you on a background forum?

It strikes me as odd that you don't like the background, hate the game, have no positive outlook whatsoever yet still play 40k.

No, no, no. You dont get it. FLUFF is the thing GW sells to you to justify their high cost. GW uses FLUFF to fill your tiny mind full of Mat Ward level of absurdity. Fluff is the thing that makes your codex cost $50 not the hard cover or the ink. Fluff is an excuse to explain the failings of the rules. The fluff is just nonsense drivel that you mindlessly eat up.

Players like you are the reason why people turn to ultra competitive play. They see this guy, with his fluffy army who thinks he is better than competitive players because he limits himself based on preconceived notions by an author who knows absolutely 0% of how the game works. Then the fluffy player has the nerve to come here in the rules proposal section and post some over powered rules for his army believeing it is all right because of the fluff he read.

I dont like you people who like the fluff.

Blah blah....insults...blah blah.

Martel732 wrote:
" That 33% of failure is not some lasbolt or handful of shot boring straight through an undamaged chestplate- it's weight of fire eventually battering through a pauldron (which lorewise, explode outwards to deflect energy- like tank armour) or finding the neck/abdomen seal.
"

Except it can happen on the first shot of the first turn. It's clearly not impervious.

That's when you write a glorious saga to one human's amazing shot.

Grief wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar also do it in ITC and any competitive setting.

I don't see any fluff justification for their ability to do so. You can enjoy the fluff (which I don't), but that's different than it having meaning.

If the models were specifically designed to work like they did in the fluff, like in a historical game, then the fluff would indeed have meaning.

Oddly that's exactly what a lot of the Eldar models do.

Then why are you on a background forum?

It strikes me as odd that you don't like the background, hate the game, have no positive outlook whatsoever yet still play 40k.

No, no, no. You dont get it. FLUFF is the thing GW sells to you to justify their high cost. GW uses FLUFF to fill your tiny mind full of Mat Ward level of absurdity. Fluff is the thing that makes your codex cost $50 not the hard cover or the ink. Fluff is an excuse to explain the failings of the rules. The fluff is just nonsense drivel that you mindlessly eat up.

Players like you are the reason why people turn to ultra competitive play. They see this guy, with his fluffy army who thinks he is better than competitive players because he limits himself based on preconceived notions by an author who knows absolutely 0% of how the game works. Then the fluffy player has the nerve to come here in the rules proposal section and post some over powered rules for his army believeing it is all right because of the fluff he read.

I dont like you people who like the fluff.

if the game sucks and the fluff sucks? why are you here?

none of this really matters as stuff gets retconned.

Grief wrote:
none of this really matters as stuff gets retconned.

Oh, good grief...