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Made in us
Missionary On A Mission



Eastern VA

 Nevelon wrote:
For those of you suggesting Salvo as a weapon type:

Is there any place where Eldar can take heavy weapons where they are not on a relentless platform?

Dark reaper exarchs? They have S&P. Death Jesters? Not sure what their rules are these days.


That's a good point, and I forgot all about that. Duh moment, here... Death Jesters aren't Relentless, true - though since the Shrieker Cannon is Assault, it doesn't really matter in that case. It could even stay unchanged.

Also, the idea of bikes/jetbikes losing Relentless has been proposed before, and IMHO, it's not a terrible idea. Only really hurts Reavers, and that could be fixed by replacing their Rapid-Fire splinter rifles with Assault 3 shardcarbines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Imateria wrote:
Back on topic with the 3 weapons from the OP.

Scatter Lasers: R24, S6, AP6, Heavy3
Shurican Cannon: R18, S5, AP5, Heavy4, Bladestorm
Star Cannon: R30, S6, AP2, Heavy 2

As ever their points cost would depend on what can take them, though the Starcannon deserves an accross the board points decreas, no way is it worth the same as a Bright Lance or Pulse Laser.

That said the problem with the Scatter Laser at the moment is that they can be taken en mass, bikes really should be moved back to 1 in 3 for the heavy weapons.


Huh. OK, I generally agree with this. I think maybe the Starcannon could afford to stay at R36, maybe, unless it gets some kind of buff (S or RoF). The DE Disintegrator is still R36 and Heavy 3 besides, and it's not OP... But then, by the same token, it is cheaper than a Dark Lance, and it's also S5. And, if it's the only R36 weapon left other than the Brightlance, maybe it's OK with just a price cut.

I fully agree with the 1-in-3 heavy weapons for Windriders, though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/18 13:50:04


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Birmingham

jade_angel wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
For those of you suggesting Salvo as a weapon type:

Is there any place where Eldar can take heavy weapons where they are not on a relentless platform?

Dark reaper exarchs? They have S&P. Death Jesters? Not sure what their rules are these days.


That's a good point, and I forgot all about that. Duh moment, here... Death Jesters aren't Relentless, true - though since the Shrieker Cannon is Assault, it doesn't really matter in that case. It could even stay unchanged.

Also, the idea of bikes/jetbikes losing Relentless has been proposed before, and IMHO, it's not a terrible idea. Only really hurts Reavers, and that could be fixed by replacing their Rapid-Fire splinter rifles with Assault 3 shardcarbines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Imateria wrote:
Back on topic with the 3 weapons from the OP.

Scatter Lasers: R24, S6, AP6, Heavy3
Shurican Cannon: R18, S5, AP5, Heavy4, Bladestorm
Star Cannon: R30, S6, AP2, Heavy 2

As ever their points cost would depend on what can take them, though the Starcannon deserves an accross the board points decreas, no way is it worth the same as a Bright Lance or Pulse Laser.

That said the problem with the Scatter Laser at the moment is that they can be taken en mass, bikes really should be moved back to 1 in 3 for the heavy weapons.


Huh. OK, I generally agree with this. I think maybe the Starcannon could afford to stay at R36, maybe, unless it gets some kind of buff (S or RoF). The DE Disintegrator is still R36 and Heavy 3 besides, and it's not OP... But then, by the same token, it is cheaper than a Dark Lance, and it's also S5. And, if it's the only R36 weapon left other than the Brightlance, maybe it's OK with just a price cut.

I fully agree with the 1-in-3 heavy weapons for Windriders, though.

Thanks. I shortend the range on the Starcannon as it fits the general theme of Eldar weapons, the same or slightly weaker strength as Imperium equivelant but with shorter range and none of the draw backs because of more advanced tech (gets hot on virtually any Eldar weapon makes no sense at all). I'm also of the opinion that the Disintegrator should be S6 as well, mainly because the only thing we've got that could be seen as equivelant to Scatter Lasers and Shurican Cannons is the Splinter Cannon, which has no effect on vehicles.

I'd be completely against Bikes/Jet Bikes loosing Relentless, it doesn't seem to make much sense to me. And not because I like Reavers, which you mainly take for Cluster Caltrops and if you really want them shooting you're relying on that lone Blaster or Heat Lance both of which are Assault weapons.It would hurt Eldar Jet Bikes more with the Scatter Laser (I'm surprised the Shurican Cannon isn't a Heavy weapon to start with).
   
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Dallas area, TX

@ Imateria: I like your change to the Shuricannon, but it feels too much like a Tau Burstcannon w/ rending. Reducing range is not a bad idea either, however, we mustn't get carried away. This game is always "upscaling" afterall and with stuff like Skitarii and Wulfen, movement and threat ranges are increasing.

So, combining the ideas I have seen, this is my new proposal:

Scatter Lasers: R24, S5, AP6, Heavy4
Star Cannon - unchanged as the Scatter no longer competes with it
Shuricannon - also unchanged for two reasons:
1) It is the Harlie Codex and would require changing more stuff around
2) It is now competitive with the nerfed Scatter laser and fills the role of generalist weapon, whereas the Scatter & Star cannon are specialized

   
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Reduce missile launchers to a 10 point upgrade with all three firing options, but only let it fire at 36".

I like the idea of str5 scatterlasers, gonna have to try that out.

Dark lances should be free upgrades for disintegrators, since they are the same cost as the other eldar heavy weapon options (trading one point of strength for an extra shot over the starcannon)

   
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Sioux Falls, SD

Honestly, a good deal of issues with the game could be solved by removing Relentless from Bikes and Jetbikes.

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Birmingham

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Reduce missile launchers to a 10 point upgrade with all three firing options, but only let it fire at 36".

I like the idea of str5 scatterlasers, gonna have to try that out.

Dark lances should be free upgrades for disintegrators, since they are the same cost as the other eldar heavy weapon options (trading one point of strength for an extra shot over the starcannon)


Agreed on the EML, 25-30pts for not much killing power makes no sense.

We're talking Eldar, not Dark Eldar. Bright Lances are S8, AP2 Heavy 1 Lance whilst Starcannons are S6, AP2 Heavy 2, maybe they should both be brought down to 15pts in cost, neither are really worth it at 20.

As for the Dark Lance, sure why not, it still wouldn't be worth running and my Ravagers are more effective with Dissies anyway, leaving Scourges with Heat Lances or Haywire Blasters to deal with vehicles.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Honestly, a good deal of issues with the game could be solved by removing Relentless from Bikes and Jetbikes.

Well it would certainly nerf Marine bikes, but thats it. Scatter Lasers and Shurican Cannons are Assault weapons so there would be no change.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/22 12:14:16


 
   
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I definitely see them as being worth 5 points over the shuriken cannon, they both out range the cannon by 12" are both at least as strong (though admittedly less shots) and they both come stock with full fledged ap2.

Exploding a vehicle may not be the most efficient way to deal with vehicles in the general meta (my houserules do a bit to change that) it is still something to consider when looking at these sort of things.

   
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Birmingham

Yes but in most cases Shurican Cannons are 10pts not 15.
   
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The big problem with Eldar special weapons is, they're all the same basic strength. This makes them way too samey, and immediately means a single one will be the best.

Starcannons: The idea is, similar to Tau plasma, that they're "smart" plasma weapons that give up the slight strength edge of imperial plasma while not killing the user. It is, therefore, inappropriate to give them Gets Hot. I would give them a points bump, and make them S7 AP2.

Scatter Lasers: "Las" as a weapon type is generally AP-, low strength, high volume of fire, unless it's super concentrated into a single shot like a lance or lascannon. Even Eldar Lasrifles are only S3. I would leave scatter lasers as-is, but drop them to S5. this removes much of the current issue where they can play at an extremely safe range and kill tanks, while maintaining their role as the anti-infantry "machine gun" type weapon they're supposed to be.

Shuriken Cannons: I'm disinclined to change this one. There are SO MANY shuriken cannon platforms that changing it would have a massive butterfly effect across multiple factions, vehicle units, infantry, bikes... keep it as the S6 entry.

Eldar Missile Launcher: Holy moly batman, learn to balance missile launchers. MLs should have some kind of "heat seeking" rule where they ignore Jink saves on all weapon types. Also, imperial MLs need to come with skyfire missiles stock like EMLs. That would help differentiate the MLs from their (largely superior) specialized competition.

BLs: Actually not awful, I would leave bright lances where they are. Currently they're just overshadowed by the overtuned Scatter Lasers and derpy D weaponry.

So now we go from having S6, S6, S6, S8, S8 as options for heavy weaponry to S5, S6, S7, S8, S8.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Bright lances are bad because the core rules say they are, just like lascannons. Nothing can be done. The concept of low ROF, high STR, low AP fails in 7th.
   
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 Imateria wrote:
Yes but in most cases Shurican Cannons are 10pts not 15.


They are a 10 point upgrade for the 5 point twin linked shuriken catapults. So 15 points

   
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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

 Nevelon wrote:
For those of you suggesting Salvo as a weapon type:

Is there any place where Eldar can take heavy weapons where they are not on a relentless platform?

Dark reaper exarchs? They have S&P. Death Jesters? Not sure what their rules are these days.


The only thing that can take a heavy weapon and not be relentless/SnP is an Autarch (without bike or jetpack) and Reaper Launcher. And Vaul's Wrath but that is Artillery and shouldn't count.

Guardian units have weapon platforms which grant Relentless.
Dark Reapers have S&P.
Death Jesters and Maugan Ra (who basically use Shuriken Cannons) are the only thing that would be affected by changing Cannons from Assault 3 to Salvo or Heavy.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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I don't know why everyone seems intent on removing strength from the scatter laser. If you take a shot away is it not equal to its imperial equivalent in the multi-laser? Now it might need a points buff, as idk the how much a multi-laser costs, but reducing the strength seems like a very harsh card to deal Eldar.

PS- Still agree the bikes only need one per three, maybe an extra on the warlock.
   
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Sioux Falls, SD

 Imateria wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Honestly, a good deal of issues with the game could be solved by removing Relentless from Bikes and Jetbikes.

Well it would certainly nerf Marine bikes, but thats it. Scatter Lasers and Shurican Cannons are Assault weapons so there would be no change.
...sigh...Of course they are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/23 23:35:24


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 arinnoor wrote:
I don't know why everyone seems intent on removing strength from the scatter laser. If you take a shot away is it not equal to its imperial equivalent in the multi-laser? Now it might need a points buff, as idk the how much a multi-laser costs, but reducing the strength seems like a very harsh card to deal Eldar.

PS- Still agree the bikes only need one per three, maybe an extra on the warlock.


Because 1 per 3 is never happening due to the way model kit was made. I"m find with making scatterbikes 35 or 40 pts as well. That's what they play like. The kill IKs after all.
   
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Dallas area, TX

No, only the Shuricannon is Assault, the Scatter is Heavy 4

@casvalremdeikun: I love that your avatar matches so many of your posts: Facepalm

   
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Sioux Falls, SD

 Galef wrote:
No, only the Shuricannon is Assault, the Scatter is Heavy 4

@casvalremdeikun: I love that your avatar matches so many of your posts: Facepalm
Well that wouldn't be as bad. And yes, my avatar covers so much so well.

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Beaver Dam, WI

Lets look at it with 3 weapons in mind and in the view of guardian defenders.

Currently a scatterr laser it 4 S6 AP6 shots 36"
a shuriken cannon is 3 S6 AP5 with Bladestorm 24"
a Starcannnon is 2 S6 AP2 shots 36"

The first thing is to reduce the cost to 5 or make a defender squad get a shuricannon for free for every 10 guardians and then adjust costs down for every option upgrade.

AP 6 or AP 5 is no big deal. Bladestorm balances the +1 ROF but nothing balances he +12" of range.

A simple change is to just make a Shuricannon upgrade its bladestorm to rending or shredding. This would make them the swiss army knife of the army albeit relatively short ranged whereas the scatterlaser or starcannon is specialized.

So in summary I would like(in respect to Defenders)
10 guardians to qualify
+5 for shuricannon
+15 for Scatlaser/Starcannon
+20 for BL/EML

As far as bikes vs defenders you always lose out when one you get taxed 90 points to field a heavy weapon and the other has no tax. A simple change to take into account that would be to increase the bike upgrade costs Say +15 to add a shuricannon and +25 to a scatter laser; This is going to make it tougher choice.]
10 defenders with scatlaser for 140 with a warlock. 3 scat bikes for 136. 8 TL shriken catapults bikes for 136 points. 4 Shuricannon bikes for 128 points





















This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/24 19:33:53


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