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The purpose of this thread will be to discuss the internal balance between the common Eldar heavy weapon. This is not a thread to nerf the ever-living heck out of Eldar.
Specifically I want to talk about the Scatter laser, Shuriken Cannon & Star cannon. Currently all have the same strength, so theoretically have similar roles, yet their special rules/rate of fire/AP all change that.

-Let's start with the Scatter laser as they would change the least. It's long range and rate of fire are infamous. All I would change about it would be making it Heavy 3, instead of 4. Losing 1 shot seems harsh, but it is still a bargain at it's usual points cost. And it would make the other 2 choices appealing

-Now Shuriken Cannons. The Heavy Bolter of the Eldar Army (not in stats, but in that it is the "heavy" version of their standard weapon). I would do 2 things to the Shuricannon:
1) Lower the points cost on most platforms from 10 to 5 pts. It shouldn't be the same cost as a Scatter laser.
2) Lower the Str to 5. I'm not as sure about this one as Str6 is pretty important, but with Bladestorm it sometimes doesn't matter - you are rolling for 6's anyway. We also need to keep it different than the Scatter laser, which as above, has the same # of shots. Shuricannons should not be anti-light AV, thus the drop in Str & points. EDIT: Possible alternative, make it Str 5 Heavy 4 Bladestorm with no change in points cost

-Finally the Star Cannons. once the bane of Marine armies, now few players even know they ever existed. Yeah, the Scatter Laser and Shuricannon are that much better. So now that we toned down those 2, what should we do with the Star Cannon? How about make it Str7. Yep, adding 1 Str should make it an appealing option on more platforms now because it will have a better time dealing with MCs & light Armour

-------------------------------
Note about the WK. With these changes I would make all versions of WK automatically come with 2 shoulder guns of your choice from those 3 and cost 320pts base. The WraithLord comes stock with 2 flamers or 2 Shuriken catapult, the WK should come stock with 2 mini guns as well. And a point increase on a WK is always welcome.
-----------------------------

So with the changes to those 3 weapons, my hope is that you will see a variety instead of "Everyone grab a Scatter Laser!" You will still see plenty of Scatter Bikes, but they will have less shots. You may even see some Shuricannon Bikes since it will be a cheaper option.
Vypers with Str 7 Star Cannons sound pretty neat and versatile.

Any thoughts?

--

Galef wrote:-Let's start with the Scatter laser as they would change the least. It's long range and rate of fire are infamous. All I would change about it would be making it Heavy 3, instead of 4. Losing 1 shot seems harsh, but it is still a bargain at it's usual points cost. And it would make the other 2 choices appealing

I have a better idea:

Keep scatter lasers at 4 shots, AP null. Reduce strength to 5. They shouldn't be effective vs. tanks. Period.

-Now Shuriken Cannons. The Heavy Bolter of the Eldar Army (not in stats, but in that it is the "heavy" version of their standard weapon). I would do 2 things to the Shuricannon:
1) Lower the points cost on most platforms from 10 to 5 pts. It shouldn't be the same cost as a Scatter laser.
2) Lower the Str to 5. I'm not as sure about this one as Str6 is pretty important, but with Bladestorm it sometimes doesn't matter - you are rolling for 6's anyway. We also need to keep it different than the Scatter laser, which as above, has the same # of shots. Shuricannons should not be anti-light AV, thus the drop in Str & points. EDIT: Possible alternative, make it Str 5 Heavy 4 Bladestorm with no change in points cost

Currently, shuriken cannons are S 6, 24 inch range, assault 3, blade storm. Even if you reduce that to S5, there's no way that this is a 5 point upgrade. For the sake of comparison, a stormbolter (S4, 24 inch range, assault 2) is a 5 point upgrade.

Counterproposal: reduce shuriken cannons to S5 and replace "assault 3" with "salvo 2/3." They keep their 10 points cost (to put them on par with heavy bolters, which are 36 inch range, S 5, AP 4, Heavy 3).

-Finally the Star Cannons. once the bane of Marine armies, now few players even know they ever existed. Yeah, the Scatter Laser and Shuricannon are that much better. So now that we toned down those 2, what should we do with the Star Cannon? How about make it Str7. Yep, adding 1 Str should make it an appealing option on more platforms now because it will have a better time dealing with MCs & light Armour

In other words, turn them into plasma cannons for a fraction of the cost and without gets hot?

That's what you are suggesting?

Counterproposal:

Star cannons get the following profile:

36 inch range. S7, AP 2, Gets Hot, Heavy 1. 15 points.

Note about the WK. With these changes I would make all versions of WK automatically come with 2 shoulder guns of your choice from those 3 and cost 320pts base. The WraithLord comes stock with 2 flamers or 2 Shuriken catapult, the WK should come stock with 2 mini guns as well. And a point increase on a WK is always welcome.

The cheapest imperial knight is 325 points, is a super heavy vehicle (not a GMC) and doesn't have "jump" in its statline. It also doesn't have ranged D.

Counterproposal:

Wraithknight costs 400 ppm. You buy upgrades as normal.

Or we say Bikers only get the heavy weapons per three guys like last time, and Scatterlasers become 15 points.

No need to drastically alter the profile of the Scatterlaser. It REALLY needs to be priced appropriately though.

@ Traditio: You missed the first line of my post. INTERNAL balance. I am comparing these weapons to themselves within the Eldar Codex. I don't care about the disparity between other factions weapons for the purpose of this discussion.

Having said that, I like some or your idea. Str 5 Scatter lasers would be nice, but that is a game-play response, not necessarily reflective of the fluff. Eldar are masters of laser tech, so if either Scater laser or Shuricannon are gonna be str6, I'd be the Scatter Laser. Remember, a Bright Lance is just a laser beam just like a Scatter laser

As for the 5pts upgrade for the Shuricannons, keep in mind that this is not the entire cost of the weapon. You swap the Shuriken catapults for them. No one takes them at their current cost, so obviously they aren't as effective as other options.

Oh, and only crude Imperial stuff or experimental Tau tech has Gets Hot! Eldar are not so superstitious about technology and have had tens of thousands of years to perfect there tech.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Or we say Bikers only get the heavy weapons per three guys like last time, and Scatterlasers become 15 points.

No need to drastically alter the profile of the Scatterlaser. It REALLY needs to be priced appropriately though.

There are 3 things I don't like about this:
1) the current Jetbike kit come with Scatters & Shuricannons for all bikes, so that will unfortunately never happen
2) I would rather have 10pts Scatters that only have 3 shots, than pay almost double the price of a Jetbike for them as they are now
3) This isn't meant to just be a fix for Jetbikes. WratihLords, Vypers, Wave Serpents, Gaurdian Defenders and tons of other units also have access to these weapons, yet the Scatter Laser is always the best option. It would be nice to make Shuicannons & Starcannons have a purpose

" but that is a game-play response, not necessarily reflective of the fluff"

Game play is what matters the most, imo.

I'd like to see scatterlasers removed altogether. However, a hefty points increase goes pretty far as well. I'd say 20 to 25 pts is fair given how much an imperial assault cannon costs. Scatterlasers are hands down better than an assault cannon as well.

I don't care about the internal balance, because balancing against broken just ends up broken again. And codex Eldar is certainly broken.

I guess we are done here then

Eldar have been my favorite army since 4th ed. I guess liking an army for fluff and style isn't enough when they suddenly become the best army 40K has ever seen.

Glad my LGS doesn't have the same consistant blinding Eldar hate that Dakka seems to have.

I hate SW and GK. I don't hate Eldar per se.

I'm tired of being tabled on turn 3 by someone who is not even trying hard. My Imperial weapons don't do enough damage to Eldar to even make a dent because reasons, but Eldar get to make me pick up three squads a turn from 36". Exasperation is the word more than hate. When I do get close, a WK just steps on me.

Cutting the ROF by 1 just makes me pick up two squads, not three. I still can't hurt you with my pop guns.

 Galef wrote:
@ Traditio: You missed the first line of my post. INTERNAL balance. I am comparing these weapons to themselves within the Eldar Codex. I don't care about the disparity between other factions weapons for the purpose of this discussion.

Do you only play against other Eldar players? If you only attend to internal balance, you end up making eldar even more OP than they already are.

But if you attend to both internal and external balance, you not only introduce variety, but also make them more on par with other factions.

And I think that my ideas work towards that:

Which would you rather:

The 10 point scatter laser that I proposed (S5, 36 inch range, heavy 4, ap null) or the 10 point shuriken cannon (S5, 24 inch range, salvo 2/3, ap 5, bladestorm)?

In and of itself, it's a toss-up.

I think a problem that eldar players have is that the eldar codex doesn't really facilitate basic troops using heavy or special weapons. Literally your only option other than windrider bikes is to run a 10 man guardian defender squad with a heavy weapons platform.

Between that and bikes, bikes are just the obviously better choice.

The way to fix that is to nerf eldar bikes. Make them cost exactly the same amount as space marine bikers and limit their heavy weapons to 1 out of 3.

The other troop choices should probably also have the option to take heavy and/or special weapons, too.

Having said that, I like some or your idea. Str 5 Scatter lasers would be nice, but that is a game-play response, not necessarily reflective of the fluff. Eldar are masters of laser tech, so if either Scater laser or Shuricannon are gonna be str6, I'd be the Scatter Laser. Remember, a Bright Lance is just a laser beam just like a Scatter laser

And I play genetically altered superhuman demigods of war.

What's your point?

At any rate, I don't think that an S5 laser is completely out of the question. Lasguns shoot laser beams, but are only S3.

As for the 5pts upgrade for the Shuricannons, keep in mind that this is not the entire cost of the weapon. You swap the Shuriken catapults for them. No one takes them at their current cost, so obviously they aren't as effective as other options.

You have to pay 5 ppm to replace a boltgun with a stormbolter. What's your point?

Oh, and only crude Imperial stuff or experimental Tau tech has Gets Hot! Eldar are not so superstitious about technology and have had tens of thousands of years to perfect there tech.

I can see a 36 inch range, S7, AP 2, heavy 1 weapon being worth 15 points without the gets hot special rule. It would still make lascannons worth 5 ppm more for the extra 2 strength and 12 inches of range.

Don't balance around lascannons. They are garbage in 7th. As are all non-D low ROF weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
Don't balance around lascannons. They are garbage in 7th. As are all non-D low ROF weapons.

The solution to this is simply to nerf D weapons and high ROF weapons. Simple enough.

That's not going to happen, though. It would be easier to make lascannons and bright lances worthwhile in the current meta. Nerfing other systems wont' change the fact that they can't perform their jobs anymore.

Martel732 wrote:
That's not going to happen, though. It would be easier to make lascannons and bright lances worthwhile in the current meta. Nerfing other systems wont' change the fact that they can't perform their jobs anymore.

Their job is to pierce heavy AV. That's their job.

The reason they can no longer do their jobs effectively in a current meta is because things like superheavies, gargantuans and OP MCs are a thing.

Those things need to be nerfed.

They aren't even good against Rhinos, though. They aren't good against any MC. They aren't even good against TWC, anything in cover or anything T5 with FNP. Piercing AV means nothing because of the BRB. Scrubbing HPs is god now. You can't fix that with weapon nerfs.

The Eldar circumvent this by bringing D-weapons and never using bright lances. They scrub out light AV with scatterlasers, and everything else dies to D-weapons. Nerfing D-weapons just makes the Ritptide even MORE immortal. We need more ways to kill the Riptide, not less.

Martel732 wrote:
They aren't even good against Rhinos, though.

I fail to see how you can say this.

Lascannons glance rhinos on 2s and explode them on 6s.

It's perfectly in the realm of possibility to wreck a rhino with a single volley of fire from a devastator squad.

It's perfectly in the realm of possibility to explode a rhino with a single volley if they're all firing lascannons.

They aren't good against any MC.

Talos pain engines?

Carnifexes?

At any rate, lascannons are for piercing armor. If you want to kill MCs, the traditional fluffy selection to use is sternguard or equivalent.

You blast vehicles, but poison MCs.

The Eldar circumvent this by bringing D-weapons and never using bright lances. They scrub out light AV with scatterlasers, and everything else dies to D-weapons. Nerfing D-weapons just makes the Ritptide even MORE immortal. We need more ways to kill the Riptide, not less.

Or maybe d weapons need to be nerfed. Maybe the riptide needs to be smashed repeatedly in the face with the nerf bat.

It's worth remembering that the Imperial plasma cannon has Blast - the proposed starcannon does not. Blast is a double-edged sword, of course, since you can't snap-shoot it, but it can do more damage than a single shot to massed infantry.

Though, here's a few other ideas:

Scatter Laser: R18 S3 AP- Heavy 5, Shred
Shuriken Cannon: R12 S6 AP5, Salvo 1/2, Bladestorm
Starcannon: R18 S7 AP2, Salvo 2/3

Leave them at their current point values. Would these still be OP? Entirely useless? Somewhere in between?

ETA: Might have chopped the range on the shuricannon down too far. Maybe.

Additionally, change Windriders as follows:

WS3 BS4 S3 T4 A1 W1 I5 Ld7 Sv 4+, Eldar Jetbike (20ppm)

Then make both weapon upgrades limited to 1 per 3.

The nerfs aren't coming, though. In fact, things like FMCs are getting better in 8th ed likely.

They are not good against Rhinos because you have to fire around five BS 4 lascannons at a Rhino to kill it on average. Do math. It's enlightening.

Talos engines and carnifxes still get toe in cover and only suffer one wound from lascannons. It takes an average of 11 BS 4 lascannons to kill a carnifex with 5+ cover.

They. Are. Awful.

"t's perfectly in the realm of possibility "

It's not likely enough for what you pay for those devastators. And they are mostly useless vs MCs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
It's worth remembering that the Imperial plasma cannon has Blast - the proposed starcannon does not. Blast is a double-edged sword, of course, since you can't snap-shoot it, but it can do more damage than a single shot to massed infantry.

Though, here's a few other ideas:

Scatter Laser: R18 S3 AP- Heavy 5, Shred
Shuriken Cannon: R12 S6 AP5, Salvo 1/2, Bladestorm
Starcannon: R18 S7 AP2, Salvo 2/3

Leave them at their current point values. Would these still be OP? Entirely useless? Somewhere in between?

Additionally, change Windriders as follows:

WS3 BS4 S3 T4 A1 W1 I5 Ld7 Sv 4+, Eldar Jetbike (20ppm)

Then make both weapon upgrades limited to 1 per 3.

Small blasts suck. I wouldn't even consider using a plasma cannon, and I'm BA. Those weapons you have listed are fine with me.

Martel732 wrote:
They are not good against Rhinos because you have to fire around five BS 4 lascannons at a Rhino to kill it on average.

That's because you play blood angels. I run a crimson fists gladius strike force (essentially, BS 5 or better shooting for 3 rounds of the game, and my devs have tank hunters).

I love missile launchers and lascannons.

Talos engines and carnifxes still get toe in cover and only suffer one wound from lascannons. It takes an average of 11 BS 4 lascannons to kill a carnifex with 5+ cover.

They. Are. Awful.

This is actually just false. The recent GW FAQ killed toe in cover with fire. MCs need 25 or better obscurity now.

GMCs only. MCs still have it.

So you have special snowflake MLs and lascannons. They still suck vs MCs. And for most Imperial armies in general.

 Galef wrote:
<snip>
Note about the WK. With these changes I would make all versions of WK automatically come with 2 shoulder guns of your choice from those 3 and cost 320pts base. The WraithLord comes stock with 2 flamers or 2 Shuriken catapult, the WK should come stock with 2 mini guns as well. And a point increase on a WK is always welcome.
-----------------------------

So with the changes to those 3 weapons, my hope is that you will see a variety instead of "Everyone grab a Scatter Laser!" You will still see plenty of Scatter Bikes, but they will have less shots. You may even see some Shuricannon Bikes since it will be a cheaper option.
Vypers with Str 7 Star Cannons sound pretty neat and versatile.

Any thoughts?

--

I'd be inclined to make the WK 400 points base, even, with the scattershield, suncannon and two shoulder guns of your choice, actually. Sword and board or dual HWCs priced as current (as an additional cost to the base 400 points)

I know, a lot of folks wanna ban it outright, increase it to 685+ points, nerf it down to T6/W3 or so, or the like, but I think just increasing it to 400 points base and doing away with that infernal auxiliary choice that lets you take 5 of them at 2000 points would help an awful lot.

It can still take a lot of fire for a 400 pt model. It makes an IK look like a pile of junk.

Galef wrote:Glad my LGS doesn't have the same consistant blinding Eldar hate that Dakka seems to have.

For me, it has nothing to do with eldar hate. I think that playing against eldar can be a ton of fun (they're not Tau).

I just want them to be priced fairly in comparison to comparable options in other codices.

Here's an alternative version:

445 points
WS4 BS4 S10 AV12/12/10 A3 I4 HP6, Super-Heavy Walker

Deep Strike, Eldar Light Titan Holo-Fields
Suncannon, Scatter Shield, two Shuriken Cannons.

Eldar Light Titan Holo-Fields: If a model with Eldar Light Titan Holo-Fields suffers a hit from a shooting attack (including Witchfire and Overwatch), roll a d6 for each hit suffered. On a result of 4+, the hit is resolved normally. On a 1-3, that attack is considered to have missed. This does not affect close combat attacks in any way.

(The holo-field bit is borrowed from the Revenant Titan, BTW. Deep Strike is there only because the current WK, and its previous incarnations, could Deep Strike as Jump MC or Jump GC models. WS3 was a typo, should have been WS4.)

jade_angel wrote:
Here's an alternative version:

445 points
WS4 BS4 S10 AV12/12/10 A3 I4 HP6, Super-Heavy Walker

Deep Strike, Eldar Light Titan Holo-Fields
Suncannon, Scatter Shield, two Shuriken Cannons.

Eldar Light Titan Holo-Fields: If a model with Eldar Light Titan Holo-Fields suffers a hit from a shooting attack (including Witchfire and Overwatch), roll a d6 for each hit suffered. On a result of 4+, the hit is resolved normally. On a 1-3, that attack is considered to have missed. This does not affect close combat attacks in any way.

(The holo-field bit is borrowed from the Revenant Titan, BTW. Deep Strike is there only because the current WK, and its previous incarnations, could Deep Strike as Jump MC or Jump GC models. WS3 was a typo, should have been WS4.)

1. I am not an eldar player. I want to emphasize this point. I play loyalist space marines. Keep that in mind when reading my following comment:

2. That's way too big of a nerf. You're trying to turn it into an imperial knight, but giving it inferior armor values.

3. You stripped it of its "jump" movement capacities.

4. Why did you nerf its WS? That seems completely unnecessary.

5. 445 points is way too expensive for that model.

My missile launchers and lascannon devastators (which would be far less expensive) would make a mockery of that unit.

Again, posts increases are a bad idea. it only encourages and escalation of game size and is the sole reason Warhammer 40K doesn't exist anymore. That's right, we have all been playing Apoc.

Instead of increasing the cost, you need to lower stuff like # of wounds or rate of fire, or even str. For example, if a WK only had 5 wounds instead of 6, that reduces his durability by 1/6th. Then reduce the range of the Wraithcannons to 24". Now you can SLIGHTY rise the cost to 300-320 pts and it's a much fairer model.
Another Problem isn't the WK itself, but the rules for GMCs and the fact that the WK is the only codex GMC. All other GMCs are ForgeWorld which has been known to wildly overcost or undercost its units

@ Traditio; I am starting to come around to the idea of Str 5 Scatter lasers, but only if the Star Cannon and Shuricannon stay as is. Part of why I started this thread was to make all 3 options equally appealing. If you nerf all 3, the Scatter Laser stays on top.

@ Jade_Angel: No offense, but all the suggestions you have made so far would make Eldar worse than DE. Why Reduce the range of all the weapons so that they only get 1 turn to shoot, then the unit dies to CC?

-

Traditio wrote:
<snip>
1. I am not an eldar player. I want to emphasize this point. I play loyalist space marines. Keep that in mind when reading my following comment:

2. That's way too big of a nerf. You're trying to turn it into an imperial knight, but giving it inferior armor values.

Somewhat. I'm trying to turn it into a baby Revenant Titan, which has 12/12/10 armor and Titan Holo-Fields (but the Revenant's work in melee too on top of the new "True Titans only get hit on a 6" stuff, which the WK wouldn't have)

Traditio wrote:

3. You stripped it of its "jump" movement capacities.

4. Why did you nerf its WS? That seems completely unnecessary.

Actually, SHWs move 12" already. True, it doesn't get to hop over intervening terrain anymore. I'm not sure how huge a nerf that is: in my experience, Knights cover ground at about the same rate as WKs anyway, but I'll grant that losing that, or losing the ability to re-roll charges, might be a big step down.

The actual WK is currently WS4. It's A4/I5 though. Maybe that could go back up, not sure. (My initial post said WS3 - as my edit indicates, that was a fat-finger and was supposed to read WS4)

Traditio wrote:

5. 445 points is way too expensive for that model.

My missile launchers and lascannon devastators would make a mockery of that unit.

Well, I'm definitely open to being convinced otherwise on the point cost. A major consideration is that AV12 ignores S5 hits outright while T8 does not - this is big against Tau who can throw around a whole hell of a lot of S5 shooting, and I've killed more than a few WKs that forgot they still have to worry about Fire Warriors and Stealth Suits.

As for IF devastators wrecking it, well, yes, they will. They'll tear up a Revenant Titan pretty good, too. Folks like Dark Eldar or Tyranids will have the devil's own time with it, though. It's about a wash for folks like Sisters or Chaos. This might screw Orks, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Again, posts increases are a bad idea. it only encourages and escalation of game size and is the sole reason Warhammer 40K doesn't exist anymore. That's right, we have all been playing Apoc.

Instead of increasing the cost, you need to lower stuff like # of wounds or rate of fire, or even str. For example, if a WK only had 5 wounds instead of 6, that reduces his durability by 1/6th. Then reduce the range of the Wraithcannons to 24". Now you can SLIGHTY rise the cost to 300-320 pts and it's a much fairer model.
Another Problem isn't the WK itself, but the rules for GMCs and the fact that the WK is the only codex GMC. All other GMCs are ForgeWorld which has been known to wildly overcost or undercost its units

@ Traditio; I am starting to come around to the idea of Str 5 Scatter lasers, but only if the Star Cannon and Shuricannon stay as is. Part of why I started this thread was to make all 3 options equally appealing. If you nerf all 3, the Scatter Laser stays on top.

@ Jade_Angel: No offense, but all the suggestions you have made so far would make Eldar worse than DE. Why Reduce the range of all the weapons so that they only get 1 turn to shoot, then the unit dies to CC?

-

Well, there is that risk, true. Though I'm not touching things like Dark Reapers or Fire Dragons, who are still pretty darn good. Also, the bikes can bounce back 2D6" after shooting - Tau can make some serious hash with R18 guns on suits because of that. It's a problem for the vehicles, though. Maybe for the Wraithlord, too, but it can take care of itself in melee.

Also, in truth, I'm kinda tired of being considered That Frelling Guy simply because I sometimes play Eldar. (In fact, when I played a game with them last week, that was the first time I've played them since February, because of this exact issue.) There's a perception that Eldar boil down to "throw anything in the list; point, click and squish. Any opponent auto-loses."

I have actually played a Revenant on a few occasions and can tell you from experience that it dies 5x faster than a WK and is 3x the cost. The Revenant should be much cheaper than it currently is.

I would only be ok with making a WK into a Walker if Riptides & DreadKnights went first.

A note on comparing and IK to a WK: While I whole heartedly agree that WKs are better, you also have to realize that IKs can have BOTH a CC D-weapon and a good gun. WKs have to pick one or the other. For some reason, GK thinks that is worth more

What the heck why not: I've got proposed walker versions of the Ghostkeel, Riptide, Stormsurge and Dreadknight too:

Ghostkeel - Cost uncertain

WS1 BS3 S4 AV11/11/11 A1 I1 HP3, Jet Pack Walker

Stealth Drones become AV11/11/1/11 HP1 Jet Pack Walkers, to avoid problems with mixed vehicle/infantry squads.

Stim Injector replaced with auto-repair system that grants IWND.

Riptide - 215 points

WS1 BS3 S5 AV13/12/11 A1 I1 HP4, Jet Pack Walker

Replace Ion Accelerator with Cyclic Ion Raker (as Ghostkeel)
Replace Heavy Burst Cannon profile with:
R24 S6 AP4 Heavy 10
R24 S6 AP4 Heavy 14, Rending, Nova-Charge

Shielded Missile Drones become AV13/12/11 HP1 Jet Pack Walkers to avoid problems with mixed squads.

Remove 3++ nova-charged shield, replace Riptide Shield Generator with full-time 4++. Stim Injector replaced with auto-repair system that grants IWND.

Stormsurge - 400 points

WS1 BS3 S6 AV12/12/11 A1 I1 HP7, Super-Heavy Walker

Nemesis Dreadknight - 215 points

WS5 BS4 S6 AV14/13/10 A4 I4 HP4, Jump Walker, Open-Topped

Melee weapons grant AP2 to avoid relying on Smash, which it no longer has. Other rules remain as before, including 5++ invulnerable save. Replace Psyker with Psychic Pilot.


I'm somewhat stabbing in the dark here and these obviously need refinement. The problem, of course, is making them worth using while making them significantly weaker than their current versions (to compensate for the fact that they'll be outright immune to most squads' CC attacks).

ETA: the major nerf to the Tau walkers' CC ability is because they are now immune to most CC attacks due to AV.

 Galef wrote:
I have actually played a Revenant on a few occasions and can tell you from experience that it dies 5x faster than a WK and is 3x the cost. The Revenant should be much cheaper than it currently is.

I would only be ok with making a WK into a Walker if Riptides & DreadKnights went first.

A note on comparing and IK to a WK: While I whole heartedly agree that WKs are better, you also have to realize that IKs can have BOTH a CC D-weapon and a good gun. WKs have to pick one or the other. For some reason, GK thinks that is worth more

Ranged D >>>>>>>> Melee D. Str 10 AP 2 is pretty good in CC last time I checked, too.

Back on topic with the 3 weapons from the OP.

Scatter Lasers: R24, S6, AP6, Heavy3
Shurican Cannon: R18, S5, AP5, Heavy4, Bladestorm
Star Cannon: R30, S6, AP2, Heavy 2

As ever their points cost would depend on what can take them, though the Starcannon deserves an accross the board points decreas, no way is it worth the same as a Bright Lance or Pulse Laser.

That said the problem with the Scatter Laser at the moment is that they can be taken en mass, bikes really should be moved back to 1 in 3 for the heavy weapons.

For those of you suggesting Salvo as a weapon type:

Is there any place where Eldar can take heavy weapons where they are not on a relentless platform?

Dark reaper exarchs? They have S&P. Death Jesters? Not sure what their rules are these days.