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 SonsofVulkan wrote:

gungo wrote:
I'm not going to get in a rules debate about this because at this point it's pointless however the fact there was a debate on all these rulings and people have already argued seperate interpretations on thier readings of the rules before the GW faqs came out shows that it was an interpretation of the rules.
Blasts and flying creatures and reserves entering and leaving same turn specifically had massive rules arguments on thier interpretations on this very board about it.

I respect your interpretation on the rules and your intention to play by the "book", however it was still just your interpretation.

There will always be interpretations on the rules even after this faq. bb transport sharing is still not clear as well as a few other faqs such as fmc that are not swooping.
And to bring this back on topic And why do I briought this up? Because let's be honest GW spent a lot of time and effort preventing most units from having turn 1 charges, specifically disallowing deep strike, infiltrators, outflanking, fast non assault transports and similar units from being able to charge the turn they arrive with the few units that are able to do it having clear exceptions. And all of a sudden there is a new power that allows units to magically appear across the board and you expect the intended purpose is so any unit can now assault the turn it arrives? I have a feeling when GW faqs this power it won't be how you interpreted it!!

Ephilo got to it before I did. Anyways I could careless how much people argue on YMDC, RAI or RAW, the point is Nova interpret their rulings more towards RAW.

No need to put words in my mouth, I never mention ANYTHING about Nova's way of interpretation, whether they are better at interpreting or their interpretation is "wrong" or "un-fair" or "overly too loose", can careless about all that.

The main point I was trying to make is NOVA TEND TO TRY NOT purposely change OFFICIAL GW Rules. Big difference between interpretation and out-right changing rules.

Yeah, NOVA's interpretations may not always line up with the eventual FAQs, but at least they're attempting to come up with a RaW interpretation. ITC frequently says (paraphrased)... "We understand unambiguously how this works, but intend to change the rule, not for ambiguity reasons, but for balance reasons."

I actually avoid ITC events for this reason. I'm not interested in playing a house ruled version of 40k voted on by a bunch of competitive tournament goers.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

gungo wrote:
I'm not going to get in a rules debate about this because at this point it's pointless however the fact there was a debate on all these rulings and people have already argued seperate interpretations on thier readings of the rules before the GW faqs came out shows that it was an interpretation of the rules.
Blasts and flying creatures and reserves entering and leaving same turn specifically had massive rules arguments on thier interpretations on this very board about it.

I respect your interpretation on the rules and your intention to play by the "book", however it was still just your interpretation.

There will always be interpretations on the rules even after this faq. bb transport sharing is still not clear as well as a few other faqs such as fmc that are not swooping.
And to bring this back on topic And why do I briought this up? Because let's be honest GW spent a lot of time and effort preventing most units from having turn 1 charges, specifically disallowing deep strike, infiltrators, outflanking, fast non assault transports and similar units from being able to charge the turn they arrive with the few units that are able to do it having clear exceptions. And all of a sudden there is a new power that allows units to magically appear across the board and you expect the intended purpose is so any unit can now assault the turn it arrives? I have a feeling when GW faqs this power it won't be how you interpreted it!!

Ephilo got to it before I did. Anyways I could careless how much people argue on YMDC, RAI or RAW, the point is Nova interpret their rulings more towards RAW.

No need to put words in my mouth, I never mention ANYTHING about Nova's way of interpretation, whether they are better at interpreting or their interpretation is "wrong" or "un-fair" or "overly too loose", can careless about all that.

The main point I was trying to make is NOVA TEND TO TRY NOT purposely change OFFICIAL GW Rules. Big difference between interpretation and out-right changing rules.

Yes and my point was you can intend whatever you want but the result was you weren't playing by the book and in the end you are only playing your own interpretation. Which ended up being not that similar to the actual intent of the rules. This is especially hilarious as you decry ITC as not playing by the book. But whatever the point still remains the power that lets you teleport across the board is the complete opposite of the rules of 40k that limits first turn charges outside of specific and limited units. It is my interpretation that's not the intent of GW for one faction to be able to circumvent this restriction unrestricted while every other faction in the game is limited (outside of select units in specific formations). Feel free to disagree otherwise or play whatever house rules or interpretations you like but claiming you play by the book is a joke all things considering the NOVA rules while intending to play by the book ended up being a less conservative interpretation of the rules. It's not like GW rules are a solid, well written, and balanced ruleset in the first place, which is why the ITC completely ignores the debate of RAW and votes on how should the rule be played.

 Kriswall wrote:

I actually avoid ITC events for this reason. I'm not interested in playing a house ruled version of 40k voted on by a bunch of competitive tournament goers.

You extol the virtues of NOVA's approach and then say you're not interested in playing a house-ruled version of 40k? Can you point me to the page where their missions are explained in the BRB?

NOVA developed their missions to counter the lack of balance in GW's releases. Once you've changed the missions, you know the parameters for how winners and losers are determined, any complaints about house rules can't be taken seriously. The short end of it, pretty much no one has played 40k straight out of the book without some sort of "house rules" in 7th edition.

bogalubov wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

I actually avoid ITC events for this reason. I'm not interested in playing a house ruled version of 40k voted on by a bunch of competitive tournament goers.

You extol the virtues of NOVA's approach and then say you're not interested in playing a house-ruled version of 40k? Can you point me to the page where their missions are explained in the BRB?

NOVA developed their missions to counter the lack of balance in GW's releases. Once you've changed the missions, you know the parameters for how winners and losers are determined, any complaints about house rules can't be taken seriously. The short end of it, pretty much no one has played 40k straight out of the book without some sort of "house rules" in 7th edition.

I extol nothing. I merely stated that NOVA is less likely to change unambiguous rules for the sake of balance. NOVA seems more focused on writing an FAQ whereas ITC seems more focused on writing Erratas to modify the game. I don't particularly like the NOVA missions either. Good thing I didn't comment on them.

As to your last sentence... from an organized standpoint, I'd agree. From a casual standpoint, I call BS. The only house ruled games I've ever played have been in tournaments. "Local gaming" is all rules as written (admitting that sometimes we might interpret wrong).

I think you guys have fallen a little off topic so I will try and bring it back around:

ATC is also using a version of the ITC nerf to the powers. The geokenisis power that moves terrain is a nightmare for large events and is banned.

Electro displacement is still there but the unit can not charge. I have been on the receiving end of this power and it pretty much can end the game on turn one without any opportunity to react or counter. It can be endgame quick for anything non MEQ in a standard set up as it is written and needed the tone down IMO.

Outside of army setup and missions there are only 3 real rules changes I can think of in the ITC that are not interpreted with multiple interpretations or rule intentions from the brb.
1) 2+ rerollable saves
2) invis changes
3) a roll of a 6 on the str d table.

Beyond that it's just rule interpretations.
Hence the big joke of people claiming "I play by the book"...

 Kriswall wrote:

As to your last sentence... from an organized standpoint, I'd agree. From a casual standpoint, I call BS. The only house ruled games I've ever played have been in tournaments. "Local gaming" is all rules as written (admitting that sometimes we might interpret wrong).

The topic is tournament use of the adjusted rules. If you agree that all organized events have house rules, then it just falls on your preference of house rules for which tournaments you attend.

I personally see no virtue in playing GW rules "as written". They are poorly tested and as GW loves to point out they are a frame work for story telling and that the most important rule is "have fun".

bogalubov wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

As to your last sentence... from an organized standpoint, I'd agree. From a casual standpoint, I call BS. The only house ruled games I've ever played have been in tournaments. "Local gaming" is all rules as written (admitting that sometimes we might interpret wrong).

The topic is tournament use of the adjusted rules. If you agree that all organized events have house rules, then it just falls on your preference of house rules for which tournaments you attend.

I personally see no virtue in playing GW rules "as written". They are poorly tested and as GW loves to point out they are a frame work for story telling and that the most important rule is "have fun".

Pretty much this, if a player doesn't like the ITC format, they can go with NOVA format and vice versa.

I feel the power needs to be nerfed a little. But it shouldn't be in a way that ignores the spirit of the way was written. As they changed both of the powers ability to the point it is not the same power.

As to the people saying being charged turn one with no way to stop it is bad for the game. I have no sympathy.

I have played too many games where overwhelming shooting turn one has made playing a second turn a wast of time. The new rip tide wing is a example of a army that is no fun too play against. It can and does often fire 3600+ worth of shooting first turn. Most army can't withstand that fire power.

Assault armies wither because of the imbalance, but something that makes shooting armies go oh crap is to overpowered. Makes complete since. A lot of matches are determined by who fires first in shooting armies. Why can't assault armies have the same option.

After having this topic on several forums, I have come to a conclusion that the Conclave is the big issue with this power. That formation needs to be addressed.

The power is really good. It had a huge wow factor, with people thinking it was going to shake up the meta. But with the changes they are suggesting that will never happen.

Oh and for the record units outflanking should be able to outflank. I 5th edition it made it a risk to counter flank deploy. Now if your a shoot army it is a no brainier to do so. Since you are protected by forgetfulness of the outflanking unit in knowing who the enemy is for a whole turn.

In the end shooting list can be just a brutal turn one with no way to stop it.

I have not seen or heard of people having this power wreck tournaments. Shouldn't that become a issue to be voted on line what happened to invisibility. Solid proof not it may or could do this.

Sad thing is if the ITC suggest something it carries world law for most TO.

In the end I like The ITC and will be playing in there tournaments. Hopefully the vote doesn't change the power to this new ruleing .

shadowfinder wrote:
I feel the power needs to be nerfed a little. But it shouldn't be in a way that ignores the spirit of the way was written. As they changed both of the powers ability to the point it is not the same power.

As to the people saying being charged turn one with no way to stop it is bad for the game. I have no sympathy.

I have played too many games where overwhelming shooting turn one has made playing a second turn a wast of time. The new rip tide wing is a example of a army that is no fun too play against. It can and does often fire 3600+ worth of shooting first turn. Most army can't withstand that fire power.

Assault armies wither because of the imbalance, but something that makes shooting armies go oh crap is to overpowered. Makes complete since. A lot of matches are determined by who fires first in shooting armies. Why can't assault armies have the same option.

After having this topic on several forums, I have come to a conclusion that the Conclave is the big issue with this power. That formation needs to be addressed.

The power is really good. It had a huge wow factor, with people thinking it was going to shake up the meta. But with the changes they are suggesting that will never happen.

Oh and for the record units outflanking should be able to outflank. I 5th edition it made it a risk to counter flank deploy. Now if your a shoot army it is a no brainier to do so. Since you are protected by forgetfulness of the outflanking unit in knowing who the enemy is for a whole turn.

In the end shooting list can be just a brutal turn one with no way to stop it.

I have not seen or heard of people having this power wreck tournaments. Shouldn't that become a issue to be voted on line what happened to invisibility. Solid proof not it may or could do this.

Sad thing is if the ITC suggest something it carries world law for most TO.

In the end I like The ITC and will be playing in there tournaments. Hopefully the vote doesn't change the power to this new ruleing .

Yeah powerful alpha strike shooty armies are tough, for example a good turn 1 sky hammer drop can cripple many armies.

Players over time just had to deal with it tactically such as null deploying, deploying minimally with sacrificial units, reserve mod, using interceptors, bubble wrapping and etc etc

Why can't people figure things out against potential turn 1 assault armies and not just cry and demand things nerfed.

I agree that if allowed, players will adjust their tactics and lists to not be so susceptible to a turn 1 charge. I also think conclaves and cabals need to go. So many of these problems go away when formations of librarians are banned.

Problem is with a lot of the new powers in AoD is that they seemed to have been chucked in at the last minute, the WC cost for most of them is far too low when compared to other similar powers, especially once you factor in a Libby Council

shadowfinder wrote:
I feel the power needs to be nerfed a little. But it shouldn't be in a way that ignores the spirit of the way was written. As they changed both of the powers ability to the point it is not the same power.

As to the people saying being charged turn one with no way to stop it is bad for the game. I have no sympathy.

I have played too many games where overwhelming shooting turn one has made playing a second turn a wast of time. The new rip tide wing is a example of a army that is no fun too play against. It can and does often fire 3600+ worth of shooting first turn. Most army can't withstand that fire power.

Assault armies wither because of the imbalance, but something that makes shooting armies go oh crap is to overpowered. Makes complete since. A lot of matches are determined by who fires first in shooting armies. Why can't assault armies have the same option.

After having this topic on several forums, I have come to a conclusion that the Conclave is the big issue with this power. That formation needs to be addressed.

The power is really good. It had a huge wow factor, with people thinking it was going to shake up the meta. But with the changes they are suggesting that will never happen.

Oh and for the record units outflanking should be able to outflank. I 5th edition it made it a risk to counter flank deploy. Now if your a shoot army it is a no brainier to do so. Since you are protected by forgetfulness of the outflanking unit in knowing who the enemy is for a whole turn.

In the end shooting list can be just a brutal turn one with no way to stop it.

I have not seen or heard of people having this power wreck tournaments. Shouldn't that become a issue to be voted on line what happened to invisibility. Solid proof not it may or could do this.

Sad thing is if the ITC suggest something it carries world law for most TO.

In the end I like The ITC and will be playing in there tournaments. Hopefully the vote doesn't change the power to this new ruleing .

I think t is more than just conclaves. I have said in several posts that marine lists have a compounded issue with their ability to cherry pick from so many different codex and provide a Swiss Army knife for every eventuality. Add in these powers, conclave, invisibility, super friends, hundreds of points in free models/units from formations, 3+ invul saves (compounded by look out sir), ability to null deploy entire armies, a lot of alpha strike (with grav and ignores cover), move through cover bikes (with scout on some), and a plethora of scoring flyers (with death in the sky's this is huge). Marines can be the most powerful psyker army in the table. They don't need any more help and I think that is why people are reacting in a negative light. I would challenge you to play a game with a non psyker list against a marine psyker list with the new rules, invisibility, uber super deathstars, Coteaz, Tiggy, and rerollable saves. It is not fun. If you do get a chance to roll dice pre tabling you feel it is a moot point as you can't hurt anything. Why do they need these powers again? Because White Scars with Gladius and Conclave are not enough? You feel tabling your opponent by turn three takes too long so you want to have it done by turn two? There is zero skill in using these powers and very little risk. Bikes and scouts with first turn are a pretty easy win with these powers.

I do find it ironic that when ITC was nerfing everything new the Tau were getting with the supliments all the marine players were calling us whiners and Waac players. Now that someone is trying to reign in the uber marine power builds the ITC is unfair and knee jerking.

Edited: Shooting can be mitigated by terrain, positiing, invisibility, reroll saves, etc. An army that moves 36" pre charging with move throu cover and is a deathstars has very few counters and requires very little skill and luck to pull off.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

As to your last sentence... from an organized standpoint, I'd agree. From a casual standpoint, I call BS. The only house ruled games I've ever played have been in tournaments. "Local gaming" is all rules as written (admitting that sometimes we might interpret wrong).

The topic is tournament use of the adjusted rules. If you agree that all organized events have house rules, then it just falls on your preference of house rules for which tournaments you attend.

I personally see no virtue in playing GW rules "as written". They are poorly tested and as GW loves to point out they are a frame work for story telling and that the most important rule is "have fun".

Pretty much this, if a player doesn't like the ITC format, they can go with NOVA format and vice versa.

Not realistic. If a player lives in an area where all TOs use the ITC format, the choice is between playing a derivative version of the game you don't like or not playing at all. Forcing a TO to switch to the NOVA format (for example) isn't a real option for a single player.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Problem is with a lot of the new powers in AoD is that they seemed to have been chucked in at the last minute, the WC cost for most of them is far too low when compared to other similar powers, especially once you factor in a Libby Council

New powers are good. Just like invisibility is good. Did anyone rewrite invisibility to be a non function spell? NO. ITC did tweak it but it's still clearly the best spell in the game. To make a spell non functional like electrodisplacement when invisibility exists is nonsensical.

I disagree a little xeno. The power still has the ability to zip you all over the table which can be huge in maelstrom missions.

 Fishboy wrote:


I think t is more than just conclaves. I have said in several posts that marine lists have a compounded issue with their ability to cherry pick from so many different codex and provide a Swiss Army knife for every eventuality. Add in these powers, conclave, invisibility, super friends, hundreds of points in free models/units from formations, 3+ invul saves (compounded by look out sir), ability to null deploy entire armies, a lot of alpha strike (with grav and ignores cover), move through cover bikes (with scout on some), and a plethora of scoring flyers (with death in the sky's this is huge). Marines can be the most powerful psyker army in the table. They don't need any more help and I think that is why people are reacting in a negative light. I would challenge you to play a game with a non psyker list against a marine psyker list with the new rules, invisibility, uber super deathstars, Coteaz, Tiggy, and rerollable saves. It is not fun. If you do get a chance to roll dice pre tabling you feel it is a moot point as you can't hurt anything. Why do they need these powers again? Because White Scars with Gladius and Conclave are not enough? You feel tabling your opponent by turn three takes too long so you want to have it done by turn two? There is zero skill in using these powers and very little risk. Bikes and scouts with first turn are a pretty easy win with these powers.

I do find it ironic that when ITC was nerfing everything new the Tau were getting with the supliments all the marine players were calling us whiners and Waac players. Now that someone is trying to reign in the uber marine power builds the ITC is unfair and knee jerking.

Edited: Shooting can be mitigated by terrain, positiing, invisibility, reroll saves, etc. An army that moves 36" pre charging with move throu cover and is a deathstars has very few counters and requires very little skill and luck to pull off.

You said " Shooting can be mitigated by terrain, positiing, invisibility, reroll saves, etc..
I give you " Assaulting can be mitigated by terrain, positiing, invisibility, reroll saves, etc.

If your army can't lose a few units turn one and still stand a chance. That is a list design issue. Seeing list with nothing but pure offence would have to change to dare I say it. A balanced list with offence and Defensive units???


First off I am a Tyranid play that just got in to Space wolves. Battle brother combos are really broken. GW made the Mistake of giving all the new powers to SM. If they had given some of them to the other races......

This biggest issue with the new powers is the Conclave. Take it away and you have a power that is not so easy to get off. Add a WC and you nerf it pretty well.

As for a army that moves 36 inch pre charge. let me introduce you to wolfen murder Pack and SW Death Pack. You can set this up to reach out and say Hello 50% of the time multiple times in a game. No powers needed. Is it the death star the other is no. But it can be quite nasty.

The ITC did not Nerf everything Tau got that was new. In fact the New FAQ has so far backed almost everything they did to Tau.

Honestly if they opened a couple of the new disciplines to Orks, Eldar, and Tyranids you would see some fun, crazy changes to the Meta.

All I am Have Been Saying is The power Can be Adjusted in a way that IT IS Recognizable.

Played as written it has a huge WOW factor and with Conclave is very open to Abuse. :(

Played as suggested it has no WOW factor. It has now made the whole Discipline maybe better or equal to the Pyro disapline. You know the one that's never played with... Ever

 Fishboy wrote:
I disagree a little xeno. The power still has the ability to zip you all over the table which can be huge in maelstrom missions.

This spell requires a unit to swap with. It's not really good for objective jumps - you likely already had the objective. It can save a unit that is in CC which has it's utility useage but really the only thing that stood out about this spell is it's ability to extend your assault range - which ITC removed. Basically 0 reason to roll fulmination now.

The long range first turn assault is more difficult to mitigate against than shooting when you figure in move through cover bikes. Bubble wrap can help some but you have to sacrifice to save units in the hope of a second turn. With short edge table set up you have a better chance because you can step back from your bubble wrap. With long table edge set up and large models it is very difficult to get far enough away to prevent a charge.
I have heard of the wolves first turn charge but have not seen it in person. I have however experienced the new marine power first turn and there really was not much I could do. I too play bugs and just moved into Tau.
I whole heartedly agree the battle brothers thing puts a lot of the marine options way over the top.

I think a power like the electro displacement would be perfect for Orks and Tyranids. It suits the fluff too. Eldar don't really need it with the speed of movement for so many of their units but my de coven list could use the love heh.

 Fishboy wrote:
The long range first turn assault is more difficult to mitigate against than shooting when you figure in move through cover bikes. Bubble wrap can help some but you have to sacrifice to save units in the hope of a second turn. With short edge table set up you have a better chance because you can step back from your bubble wrap. With long table edge set up and large models it is very difficult to get far enough away to prevent a charge.
I have heard of the wolves first turn charge but have not seen it in person. I have however experienced the new marine power first turn and there really was not much I could do. I too play bugs and just moved into Tau.
I whole heartedly agree the battle brothers thing puts a lot of the marine options way over the top.

I think a power like the electro displacement would be perfect for Orks and Tyranids. It suits the fluff too. Eldar don't really need it with the speed of movement for so many of their units but my de coven list could use the love heh.

You have to potentially sacrifice a unit to shooty alpha strike armies regardless.... Nothing you can do when 4 drop pods full of grav drop in your face. Or a Seer council or WG star gating in front of you without scatter and unload a crap ton of shooting and psychic attacks.

At least against 1st turn assault armies, you can just deploy 2 or 3 units of let say Warp spiders(Eldar players) through out the deploy zone, he can only choose to assault one of them and has to waste a unit to swap with in doing so.

A Conclave of 3x lvl2 white scar Libbies(or 4) may have to dedicate a lot of rolls on fulmination to get electrodisplacement, theres a chance they won't even get it. And more rolls on fulmination also means less chance of getting a buffing power like invis or veil which can be huge.

Interesting reads, love the NOVA vs. ITC stuff, even though NOVA Is one of the ITC's few major events. We just don't use their missions or all the same rulings. Because we like asymmetrical player-choose-able missions to help moderate mismatches. Different, not better.

In terms of rulings and all that, ITC doesn't nerf deathstars or invisibility or other things all that meaningfully. They're all still absurdly powerful, and are very heavy influences in the current game / meta. So, when something else comes out that is deathstar/cc friendly, NOVA tends to hold on immediate judgment calls, b/c it isn't going to change the fact that you can - even in ITC - still have units that only fail 1/12 saves and can largely go wherever they want on the board, whenever they want, and charge/kill whatever they want.

That said, things like powers that move terrain all over the board and insta-displace units to charge, I wonder why people are such big fans of such things. I also wonder why people are fans of powers like invisibility. But adding personal opinion into rules calls isn't very healthy or fair. Plenty of people like a game where heavy %s of it involve micromanaging near-impossible to kill deathstars and psychic power generation. To each their own.

But for those who don't like the ITC rulings, they certainly are quite successful w/ their tournament attendance, and I'm appreciative of people keeping the game rolling at the con level - because convention 40K is probably the best social 40K experience you can possibly find (which is super sad when you consider the # of people who get scared off attending in the first place).

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
The long range first turn assault is more difficult to mitigate against than shooting when you figure in move through cover bikes. Bubble wrap can help some but you have to sacrifice to save units in the hope of a second turn. With short edge table set up you have a better chance because you can step back from your bubble wrap. With long table edge set up and large models it is very difficult to get far enough away to prevent a charge.
I have heard of the wolves first turn charge but have not seen it in person. I have however experienced the new marine power first turn and there really was not much I could do. I too play bugs and just moved into Tau.
I whole heartedly agree the battle brothers thing puts a lot of the marine options way over the top.

I think a power like the electro displacement would be perfect for Orks and Tyranids. It suits the fluff too. Eldar don't really need it with the speed of movement for so many of their units but my de coven list could use the love heh.

You have to potentially sacrifice a unit to shooty alpha strike armies regardless.... Nothing you can do when 4 drop pods full of grav drop in your face. Or a Seer council or WG star gating in front of you without scatter and unload a crap ton of shooting and psychic attacks.

At least against 1st turn assault armies, you can just deploy 2 or 3 units of let say Warp spiders(Eldar players) through out the deploy zone, he can only choose to assault one of them and has to waste a unit to swap with in doing so.

A Conclave of 3x lvl2 white scar Libbies(or 4) may have to dedicate a lot of rolls on fulmination to get electrodisplacement, theres a chance they won't even get it. And more rolls on fulmination also means less chance of getting a buffing power like invis or veil which can be huge.

This is what makes me miss third edition. The first turn was typically a positioning turn and rarely saw a unit destroyed. I remember the really scary thing was trying to position vehicles so they did not get destroyed by the long range las cannon heh. Now they question is how much do I need to sacrifice to get to the second turn.

 Fishboy wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
The long range first turn assault is more difficult to mitigate against than shooting when you figure in move through cover bikes. Bubble wrap can help some but you have to sacrifice to save units in the hope of a second turn. With short edge table set up you have a better chance because you can step back from your bubble wrap. With long table edge set up and large models it is very difficult to get far enough away to prevent a charge.
I have heard of the wolves first turn charge but have not seen it in person. I have however experienced the new marine power first turn and there really was not much I could do. I too play bugs and just moved into Tau.
I whole heartedly agree the battle brothers thing puts a lot of the marine options way over the top.

I think a power like the electro displacement would be perfect for Orks and Tyranids. It suits the fluff too. Eldar don't really need it with the speed of movement for so many of their units but my de coven list could use the love heh.

You have to potentially sacrifice a unit to shooty alpha strike armies regardless.... Nothing you can do when 4 drop pods full of grav drop in your face. Or a Seer council or WG star gating in front of you without scatter and unload a crap ton of shooting and psychic attacks.

At least against 1st turn assault armies, you can just deploy 2 or 3 units of let say Warp spiders(Eldar players) through out the deploy zone, he can only choose to assault one of them and has to waste a unit to swap with in doing so.

A Conclave of 3x lvl2 white scar Libbies(or 4) may have to dedicate a lot of rolls on fulmination to get electrodisplacement, theres a chance they won't even get it. And more rolls on fulmination also means less chance of getting a buffing power like invis or veil which can be huge.

This is what makes me miss third edition. The first turn was typically a positioning turn and rarely saw a unit destroyed. I remember the really scary thing was trying to position vehicles so they did not get destroyed by the long range las cannon heh. Now they question is how much do I need to sacrifice to get to the second turn.

This game is fully about alpha strikes - dictated by who gets the first turn roll. IMO it is the single biggest problem with the game. It's almost like we should do like chess and play two games where each player gets to go first. Whos got time for that though?

I too agree that conclave and cabal are super powerful but they are only one of the links in the problem. Even removing BB doesn't address the issue, my friend whow has won 6+ GTs has a pure IH electro list that is almost unbeatable going second vs it. Even with planning to face it you cannot get away even wroth EJB because on turn 2 they move 36 inches. I say let the chips fall where they may and then let the traditional itc vote handle this.

Hopefully we can all just enjoy the video games and board games in the future, this game is having a golden age bit it is mixed with a nightmare. And no, I have no interest in a game full of expendable hoards or 30k marines and 75 pt 1W a terminators.


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There just isn't enough terrain. Mane enough los blocking terrain in each deployment zone and alpha strike shooting and electro assault can't get you turn 1.

Would you have rather get one turn 1 charge or constantly having 5-8 D-scythes WG gating in front of your most valuable units every turn without scattering? In ITC templates can hit invis units now... It's like eldar is still the most broken army in the game and ITC just like selectively nerf other things.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Would you have rather get one turn 1 charge or constantly having 5-8 D-scythes WG gating in front of your most valuable units every turn without scattering? In ITC templates can hit invis units now... It's like eldar is still the most broken army in the game and ITC just like selectively nerf other things.

What are you talking about space marines are one of the most powerful armies.
Invis has always been nerfed in the ITC that hardly matters for eldar since wraithguard are not the main tourney winning units for eldar that's scatbikes wraithknights and warp spiders which IS nerfed in the ITC.

gungo wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Would you have rather get one turn 1 charge or constantly having 5-8 D-scythes WG gating in front of your most valuable units every turn without scattering? In ITC templates can hit invis units now... It's like eldar is still the most broken army in the game and ITC just like selectively nerf other things.

What are you talking about space marines are one of the most powerful armies.
Invis has always been nerfed in the ITC that hardly matters for eldar since wraithguard are not the main tourney winning units for eldar that's scatbikes wraithknights and warp spiders which IS nerfed in the ITC.

Matter of opinion, I think eldars are still the most OP in the current meta, no point arguing if your opinions defers.

The point to my previous post is comparing the psychic potentials of two armies. WG star can be just as devasting if not more compared to SM stars with Libby conclave. 5-8 D-1 templates usually will destroy almost anything barred maybe 2++ or 3++ With re-rolls. Basically if eldar player goes first before SM deathstar gets buffs up, the SM is pretty much dead.

People can argue that one should reserve or bubble wrap the key units.... Well wasn't that the original argument against electro displacement and turn 1 assault? Eldars has much better chance of getting the required powers, more WCs and more importantly much better chance at denying the witch. One deny on veil or any other key buffs, game over for SM deathstars

Opinion? Lol whatever dude whine more.
You do realize win % by army type are tracked by the ITC space marines winning are one of the most powerful armies this isn't opinion this is facts. You do realize army lists are passed around like a bad prom date and the most op units hasn't been wg but warp spiders and ob secured scat bikes and multiple wraithknights are what these lists are made out of not opinions.

Sorry the ITC recommended taking away your broken space marine exclusive ability to assault with your Death Star turn 1, there is plenty of play reports you can look up online to show how broken this power is, but hey it's a matter of your opinion electro displacement is not one of the most broken powers in game. No point arguing if your opinion defers.

gungo wrote:
Opinion? Lol whatever dude whine more.
You do realize win % by army type are tracked by the ITC space marines winning are one of the most powerful armies this isn't opinion this is facts. You do realize army lists are passed around like a bad prom date and the most op units hasn't been wg but warp spiders and ob secured scat bikes and multiple wraithknights are what these lists are made out of not opinions.

Sorry the ITC recommended taking away your broken space marine exclusive ability to assault with your Death Star turn 1, there is plenty of play reports you can look up online to show how broken this power is, but hey it's a matter of your opinion electro displacement is not one of the most broken powers in game. No point arguing if your opinion defers.

Deathstar attacks turn one and losses not once but twice. There are videos that show people losing and people winning. A major tournament even allowed it as written. Guess what it did not win. Not even in the top 5. People are caught up with the what if. Sadly this fear hasn't come to fruition in real life.

Turn one charges can be done without this power. One unit combo can do it up max charge range 42 inches.. Orks can be done up to 30 max, I think. Skyhammer can assault turn one anywhere it want's. We will see if tyranids will be able too soon. GSC can with the 2 unis and the rest can after infiltrating turn one. Turn one assault are becoming more and more common.

The OP is not saying to leave it unchanged but that it needs to be kept closer to how it is written not destroyed completly. There was no reason to change both of the powers abilities. Swapping in to or out of combat is not over powered. !!

gungo wrote:
Opinion? Lol whatever dude whine more.
You do realize win % by army type are tracked by the ITC space marines winning are one of the most powerful armies this isn't opinion this is facts. You do realize army lists are passed around like a bad prom date and the most op units hasn't been wg but warp spiders and ob secured scat bikes and multiple wraithknights are what these lists are made out of not opinions.

Sorry the ITC recommended taking away your broken space marine exclusive ability to assault with your Death Star turn 1, there is plenty of play reports you can look up online to show how broken this power is, but hey it's a matter of your opinion electro displacement is not one of the most broken powers in game. No point arguing if your opinion defers.

Go ahead and show me the stats of all the Top GT winners that are SM death stars besides Aaron Aelong's thunderdome.