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 DarknessEternal wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Have Luther not turn. The DA would of been united, the Lion could've kept going to Terra instead of returning home, and possibly crushed more heretics.

The Lion didn't return to Caliban until after the battle at Terra anyway. He only went back because it was time to go home after the Heresy ended.

Should've phrased it better. I meant that although it couldn't have prevented the Horus Heresy, the Lion being in full health, the Legion being in full strength would have gone a long way to strengthening the Imperium and stomping out the last flames of Chaos.

The Space Marines are seen as a failed experiment and removed...
Or if not, then the Ultramarines are the sole force at the Istvann massacre and are all but wiped out.

The Council of Nikea went the other way or Magnus successfully warns the Emperor without destroying his machine.

Torgaddon beats Aximand and survives.

Vulkan dyeing and staying dead. Was a dumb cliche.

Batman aka the Night Hunter being on the side of righteous, his fluff is my favorite out of the primarch bunch; perhaps swap him with Sangunius' role of sacrificing himself, he being a precog and all.

Sanguinius surviving the final fight with Horus. Not unscathed, mind you, he'd still be wounded/crippled from the battle, but surviving to rebuild his Legion & help restructure the Imperium with the surviving Primarchs would have been an interesting twist to the end of the Heresy.

My thoughts on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst

There is no Horus... No Legion XVI...

Fulgrim and Ferrus don't become friends.

Fulgrim doesn't try and unsuccessfully convince Ferrus. Ferrus doesn't rush headlong into the Drop Site Massacres, even survives it.

As an aside, because Forgebreaker doesn't get made, Perturabo isn't given it as a symbol of Horus's recognition. Isn't convinced of Horus's regard for him after massacring Olympia as a result, and eventually goes rogue on everyone during the Heresy.

I would revert the fall of Horus to the original version found in Space Marine (Epic 1st Edition). The new version is positively rubbish and uses the kind of circular reasoning a 12 year old could defeat, let alone a primarch, or greatest of the primarchs.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Ferrus Manus NOT dying. Imagine the repercussions for the traitors if the Gorgon had remained in the fight throughout the entire Heresy?

EDIT: I realize this isn't a small thing.

You gotta butterfly it man.
A lascannon marine got a bead on Fulgrim moments before the fight. Fulgrim's spidey sense kicks in and he tries to dodge/parry to the left but is struck by some passing bolter shots. Most ricochet harmlessly off his armour but one creases his hip joint, detonating and disabling some of the fibre bundles/motivators. Now his balance is slightly off. Ferrus wades in with his hammer but Fulgrim cannot quite evade all of Ferrus' attacks.
Parrying two handed with his sword to keep the hammer at bay, Fulgrim is unable to avoid the servo arm that Ferrus suddenly remembers he had all along.

The thing I would have changed? Iron warriors getting the credit they deserved.

For example, one prominent remembrancer does a great potrait of Perturabo and his legion triumphant that just takes off, which leads to other remembrancers trying to one up him/her, suddenly IW are showered in glory, Perturabo approached by the Imperiums greatest builders and generals as the expert in seiges, shows his talent for building as well as tearing down, ect, ect. . . Ultimately leading to the IW staying loyal. Love playing loyalist IW heh.

 Ir0njack wrote:
The thing I would have changed? Iron warriors getting the credit they deserved.

For example, one prominent remembrancer does a great potrait of Perturabo and his legion triumphant that just takes off, which leads to other remembrancers trying to one up him/her, suddenly IW are showered in glory, Perturabo approached by the Imperiums greatest builders and generals as the expert in seiges, shows his talent for building as well as tearing down, ect, ect. . . Ultimately leading to the IW staying loyal. Love playing loyalist IW heh.

Yeah. Would be way better than a laughing Perturabo, who re-works a painting with a flamer.....

Take your pick:
Removal of perpetuals and redoing Ollanius and Grammaticus. Keep the mystery, man! Sometimes less is more!
Sorting out the Alpha Legion's motivation (it's done in less than two pages).
Removing Grey Knights (Technically happened just after though).
Bumping up the number of SMs.
Have the real Fulgrim still trapped in his Dorian Grey fanart painting.

 Ashiraya wrote:
[

This, but mainly because of how much it screws over Iron Hands players. They are the only ones with a dead Primarch.

What? Sanguinius, Horus, Vulkan, and Curze ring any bells?

After the Istvaan massacre, Corax called back the marines who would eventually become the charchadons from the outskirts of the galaxy.

What if Eldrad had spoken to a more open minded Primarch on Tarsus, rather than speaking with Fulgrim after it was already too late to stop him falling to chaos.

Maybe Eldrad speaks to Magnus, who believes his warning because of a shared psychic link, mind share, etc... Eldrad and Magnus warn Emps, Emps sends the Wolves, BA, and a few others to bitch slap Horus and bring him to heel.

Uneasy agreement reached between Eldar and Imperium, which later comes in handy vs. Necron, Nids and the odd Ork invasion

Everyone is happy and there is no grimdark

 BobNT wrote:
What if Eldrad had spoken to a more open minded Primarch on Tarsus, rather than speaking with Fulgrim after it was already too late to stop him falling to chaos.

Maybe Eldrad speaks to Magnus, who believes his warning because of a shared psychic link, mind share, etc... Eldrad and Magnus warn Emps, Emps sends the Wolves, BA, and a few others to bitch slap Horus and bring him to heel.

Uneasy agreement reached between Eldar and Imperium, which later comes in handy vs. Necron, Nids and the odd Ork invasion

Everyone is happy and there is no grimdark

And why the heck would they trust a xenos?

 Ankhalagon wrote:

 BobNT wrote:
What if Eldrad had spoken to a more open minded Primarch on Tarsus, rather than speaking with Fulgrim after it was already too late to stop him falling to chaos.

Maybe Eldrad speaks to Magnus, who believes his warning because of a shared psychic link, mind share, etc... Eldrad and Magnus warn Emps, Emps sends the Wolves, BA, and a few others to bitch slap Horus and bring him to heel.

Uneasy agreement reached between Eldar and Imperium, which later comes in handy vs. Necron, Nids and the odd Ork invasion

Everyone is happy and there is no grimdark

And why the heck would they trust a xenos?

They share a common enemy in Chaos and only an idiot wages war on everything they encounter.... Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh dear.

I'd change the Emperor's parenting skills.

pm713 wrote:

 Ankhalagon wrote:

 BobNT wrote:
What if Eldrad had spoken to a more open minded Primarch on Tarsus, rather than speaking with Fulgrim after it was already too late to stop him falling to chaos.

Maybe Eldrad speaks to Magnus, who believes his warning because of a shared psychic link, mind share, etc... Eldrad and Magnus warn Emps, Emps sends the Wolves, BA, and a few others to bitch slap Horus and bring him to heel.

Uneasy agreement reached between Eldar and Imperium, which later comes in handy vs. Necron, Nids and the odd Ork invasion

Everyone is happy and there is no grimdark

And why the heck would they trust a xenos?

They share a common enemy in Chaos and only an idiot wages war on everything they encounter.... Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh dear.

I'd change the Emperor's parenting skills.

Can't change what was never there to begin with

Horus' fall from grace is too quick.

I wish they would have used the lost 2 legions as some kind of prime motivator for the Primarchs who turned. Possibly Horus was very close to one of them, and resented the Emperor for destroying them. Horus see's that another culling of a legion may be in the works after the Ultramarines spat with the Word Bearers or even the Edict of Nikea (spelling?).

He sees that the word bearers are turning to chaos just like one of the legions that was purged and comes to a decision slowly that maybe the Emperor isn't the omnipotent father of mankind that he once thought he was. That small spark of doubt creates a chain reaction with events and chaos slowly seeps into his subconscious, turning him gradually.

Kojiro, what is the original version ?

As you can see, the original version has a loyal Horus effectively tricked. The old Realm of Chaos books were full of examples of just how insidious Chaos was. That saying the wrong words, that picking up the wrong object can be your end. Hell, the opening story in Reals of Chaos is about how an Inquisitor, curious how a Marine Commander could fall to Chaos, idly traces his finger along the grooves of the commanders ornate desk and unwittingly writes the name of a demon. Upon completion of the idle gesture the Inquisitor is instantly possessed by a demon... Chaos was that frightening. It's the kind of dangerous that justifies purges and killing anyone who has come into contact with it.

This does two things. First, it makes Chaos scary. Not 'we'll kill you scary' but horrifying, infectious evil scary. Something Chaos has lost in recent times in place of 'rawr we're mean and spikey'. But for the HH itself, this returns the utterly tragic element of it. Horus was never evil- he 'died' in that warrior lodge and was never tricked by some silly, circular reasoning vision a 12 year old could puzzle out. The HH becomes a story about how two factions of loyal troops fighting each other, both believing themselves right and the other misguided. Instead now we have one side descending into absurdity because or pettiness and insecurity. The traitors of the current books are asshats. The 'traitors' of the original storyline were mislead idealists who realised their mistake all too late.

 Kojiro wrote:
/snip

As you can see, the original version has a loyal Horus effectively tricked. The old Realm of Chaos books were full of examples of just how insidious Chaos was. That saying the wrong words, that picking up the wrong object can be your end. Hell, the opening story in Reals of Chaos is about how an Inquisitor, curious how a Marine Commander could fall to Chaos, idly traces his finger along the grooves of the commanders ornate desk and unwittingly writes the name of a demon. Upon completion of the idle gesture the Inquisitor is instantly possessed by a demon... Chaos was that frightening. It's the kind of dangerous that justifies purges and killing anyone who has come into contact with it.

This does two things. First, it makes Chaos scary. Not 'we'll kill you scary' but horrifying, infectious evil scary. Something Chaos has lost in recent times in place of 'rawr we're mean and spikey'. But for the HH itself, this returns the utterly tragic element of it. Horus was never evil- he 'died' in that warrior lodge and was never tricked by some silly, circular reasoning vision a 12 year old could puzzle out. The HH becomes a story about how two factions of loyal troops fighting each other, both believing themselves right and the other misguided. Instead now we have one side descending into absurdity because or pettiness and insecurity. The traitors of the current books are asshats. The 'traitors' of the original storyline were mislead idealists who realised their mistake all too late.

I never knew of that version. I like it better as well. More subtle.

Erebus trips and falls out of the back of a stormbird when leaving Colchis for the first time. Is that small enough?

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Kharn would have killed Erebus during their sanguis extremis duel after Argel Tal's death.

Really not sure what consequences it would have had, as I don't really know what Erebus does after that point.

You stole mine

The emperor is placed into the golden throne to prevent his body from healing, rather than to prevent him from dying.

this one is pre-heresy (right at the start of the creation of the first space marine.)

The emperor looks at what he just created, decides nah this gak won't do, walks straight up to the space marine. He puts a gun against his head, BLAM!, creating a hole where the head was supposed to be.

No space marine --> no warhammer 40k --> no finance for the founders of GW -> no games workshop --> no me getting into wargames --> preventing me from writing this post --> saving me 5 minutes of my time.


p.s. i LOVE! warhammer40k

 ChazSexington wrote:


What? Sanguinius, Horus, Vulkan, and Curze ring any bells?

30k players, I might add.

In 40k it doesn't matter because they are all dead, asleep, missing or generally do not do very much at all.

madtankbloke wrote:
The emperor is placed into the golden throne to prevent his body from healing, rather than to prevent him from dying.

Is that a change?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:
The emperor is placed into the golden throne to prevent his body from healing, rather than to prevent him from dying.

Is that a change?

One is them trying to keep their leader alive the other is an attempt to grab power.