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Oh, come on, does anyone really play Imperial Knights just because of them being superheavies, not looking cooltastic on the tabletop?

No, I play orks. They are not cheese.

Traditio wrote:
Are any of your captains Smashfether?

I dunno, maybe? I'm not entirely sure what that entails, but I do have one on a bike with a lightning claw and Shield Eternal. So I guess? I do also have a Chaplain on bike, 2 or 3 Captains on foot, a jump pack Captain and a Terminator Captain or two.

For the purposes of this thread, "cheese" should be understood as the most commonly complained about combinations. My personal cheese bar is set lower, but that's not what the thread is about.

But that's the thing; everyone's definition is different. If I created a tactics thread asking what to equip my Captain with, the most common answer would be "bike Captain." This is because the rules so overwhelmingly favour a bike over any other form that it would be almost ludicrous not to use one. So does that make me a piece of gak, win at all costs donkey-cave for doing so? Or does it make the rules inherently unbalanced? Both? I don't know. It will all depend on who's asking the question and who's answering.

The 3 lists I run most often are:

SOB immolator spam
WS gladius strike force(Hyper competitive mega grav culexus in a pod etc, probably my favorite competitive list.)
SmashFetherBall with librarius conclave in the medusa strike force with a culexus in a pod and drop pod grav devs with SNP.

Ultramarines Grav/mela skyhammer makes it into these lists whenever I can shave the points

I try very hard. But fail every time.

As an Eldar player I run multiple (usually 3) small squads of bikes (usually 3), but if I take any heavy weapons, it's only one per squad. I run at most one squad of Warp Spiders, and have only used a Wraithknight once or twice.

That said, I do play Eldar, and everyone complains about them, so I guess I need to check "yes"?

For Nids, I run at most 1 Dakka Flyrant.

 Happyjew wrote:
As an Eldar player I run multiple (usually 3) small squads of bikes (usually 3), but if I take any heavy weapons, it's only one per squad. I run at most one squad of Warp Spiders, and have only used a Wraithknight once or twice.

That said, I do play Eldar, and everyone complains about them, so I guess I need to check "yes"?

For Nids, I run at most 1 Dakka Flyrant.

It's so hard with Eldar, because your bottom feeder units would be starters in other lists.

Interesting question. The answer for me is 'depends on my opponent.' Most people won't find my BA to be cheesy, until I run into that Harlie or DE player who then cries that frag cannons are op. Although, my BA list I took to WGC last year got opponents (oddly enough, Tau and Eldar) to complain about it. 11 model 1850 is pretty cheesy when they're a bunch of melta-immune tanks and dreadnoughts.

 Mulletdude wrote:
Interesting question. The answer for me is 'depends on my opponent.' Most people won't find my BA to be cheesy, until I run into that Harlie or DE player who then cries that frag cannons are op. Although, my BA list I took to WGC last year got opponents (oddly enough, Tau and Eldar) to complain about it. 11 model 1850 is pretty cheesy when they're a bunch of melta-immune tanks and dreadnoughts.

Frag cannons? Please. Child's play in 7th.

Yes mhwa ha ha my orks will curbstomp all of you. There is no way my mightly grot tanks will not table you in turn 2

I play none of these five things.

I have been told by people that combining DE/Harlie ld negs and Eldar Telepathy is cheesetastic, but that wasn't on the list.

"Most commonly complained about" just means "I can't define cheese, but I know it when I see it."

I don't think anyone's forgotten your earlier spoiled, entitled rants on the subject. "Pulse rifles are OP 'cause they're better than bolters," really?

 Jewelfox wrote:
"Most commonly complained about" just means "I can't define cheese, but I know it when I see it."

I don't think anyone's forgotten your earlier spoiled, entitled rants on the subject. "Pulse rifles are OP 'cause they're better than bolters," really?

Pulse rifles are not OP.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that's "cheesy" is not taking your opponent's feelings into account. Whether you're giving a tournament game your best shot, or playing a pickup or casual game with someone you'd like to befriend.

Everything else is subjective.

Funny thing is I have always run my space marines as the "codex compliant" list with devs, assualt marines, and tacticals when available loaded into rhinos and drop pods (that full comapny picture from the 5th edition book is my go to for how I want my second comapny Ultras to look and behave). Naturally when they release the new rules I was like "SCORE!!!" and modified my rhinos to also be razorbacks. Most of the time I actually take as my extra formation either sternguard in pods, a storm wing, or I max out my tactical squads, and combat squad out lascannons or plasma cannons with some scout squads. I wouldnt necessarily say its cheesy because I have always played them codex compliant and no centurions, but then again 10 free razorbacks is nothing to sneeze at.

I put walls of AV on the table... According to the OP, my beloved Traditio, that is aged Gouda.

Orks and Imperial Guard is all I tend to play these days

I wouldn't consider my Tzeentch Daemons cheesy at all when I run them as a CAD. The two 'worst' offenders in my list would be a LoC w/Boomstick + 2x Greater Gifts, and a single Lv3 Malefic Tzherald w/Imposible Robe. (who also is geared for close combat choppiness, so he's hardly difficult to hunt down...)
I like to bring the Grimoire for sure, but I don't use it to build re-rolled 2++ saves. Instead, I much prefer to pass out boosted invulns to multiple units, instead of just building one super unit that can easily be ignored.

I also like to include things like;
- a unit of 9 Flamers, because I've always loved Tzeentch's proclivity for burning things, and because they're among my favourite models in the entire Daemons range.
In really large games, I can run 18 Flamers!

- allied Warptalons w/MoT, as within a full-on Daemons army, they actually get some solid synergies.
With them I'll also take a Tzeentch Sorc, Cultists and Possessed to keep the whole daemonic theme going. And now with the Warzone Fenris campaign, I'd love to expand on these and build a full allied Alpha Legion contingent!

- a small unit of converted Changebringers (Flamers riding Discs), which use the rules for Plaguedrones... They always take the shooting upgrade, despite how awful it really is, simply because the unit under its previous Storm of Chaos rules were meant to be a beefier shooting cavalry.

Now if I want to be more competitive, then I'll instead run a more pts efficient Warpflame Host as the core of my army, using lots of MSU Flamers (who gain S5 templates) and solo Exalted Flamers.


So I'd say that no, while I don't run a fluffy wet noodle army by any means, I doubt anyone could really claim that even my (albeit poor) attempts at more competitive lists are cheese in any way.
One lonely little Malefic caster is hardly playing a Clown Car...

I've been playing lots of DEldar and Harlies recently, so no.
However, my local gaming group has learned to fear anything getting close to Incubi or Harlequins

I run a Space Marine Demi-Company, but I use mostly Rhinos, as compared to Razorbacks (mostly because I was given a bunch of Rhinos as a gift). So I wouldn't say my army is Cheddar.

I would also argue that an IK army is only cheddar if you don't inform your opponent that you're bringing one. If you know about it, then you can prepare accordingly. It's only cheese if you just spring it on someone without warning em'. That's just my opinion though.

 Jewelfox wrote:
"Most commonly complained about" just means "I can't define cheese, but I know it when I see it."

There are combinations of things that people often complain about. Wraithguard + webway portal is one of them.

Again, this has nothing to do with my previous "rants." I'm talking about the very worst combinations that inspire the most complaint. Simply taking a tau army doesn't qualify for a "yes" answer on the poll.

Taking a riptide wing might. Simply playing tau does not.

I play Thousand Sons so, yes, obviously.

I am very interested in the way that the poll has turned out so far. Roughly 100 participants, and of those, roughly 1 in 5 admits to running what he or she considers a "cheesy" list.

The motivations for so doing are diverse, of course.

But this is very interesting:

Roughly 4 out of 5 dakka members don't consider themselves as playing a cheesy list, at least, thus far.

Are people really going to admit to playing a "cheesy" list though?

 War Kitten wrote:
Are people really going to admit to playing a "cheesy" list though?

It's an anonymous poll.

Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Are people really going to admit to playing a "cheesy" list though?

It's an anonymous poll.

I understand that, but most people still wouldn't be willing to admit that they play a "cheesy" list. Even in a poll.

So 1 out of every 5 players are Tau/Eldar? Weird.

By your standards, probably.

I mean my Slaanesh Daemons army contains 3 vehicles you can't really kill with Boltguns, 1 MC and 1 FMC, a total of 6 Psykers (2 lvl 3s and 4 lvl 2s), 2-3 of which roll on Malefic to get summoning, with the rest rolling on Telepathy.

I don't consider it cheesy, and no one around here does either even though I typically win with it, but since it contains summoning, high amounts of psykers and units Boltguns can't kill, to you it probably is.

Traditio wrote:
Again, this has nothing to do with my previous "rants."

Yes, it does, because they showed that you have no ability to discern "cheese" or "overpowered" stuff from things that you simply don't like. Crowdsourcing your definition of cheese doesn't help a whole lot, because as you can see from this thread everyone has a different idea of what's imba and what isn't, outside of maybe a very small number of repeat offenders (like scatbikes). This is what you'd expect in a game that has super-complicated rules, super-isolated metas, and whole sections of the rules (codices) that most people can't browse at their leisure unless they are playing that faction.

Besides that, context matters. "Cheese" in a tournament is not the same as "cheese" on the kitchen table, as one of the first few responses pointed out. And some players want a serious challenge.

With that in mind, asking people if they play cheese or not is largely meaningless, and asking "would most people consider your list cheese?" isn't much better. All the answers you get are either going to be subjective ("I don't think it's that cheesy"), or quantitative ("This is what it consists of"). No one is "most people," so no one can say whether or not a thing is objectively cheese by your definition. And it sounds like the people who've weighed in on it don't trust your personal judgment, since you appear to be blind to your biases.

Frankly, I'm not sure why you'd be posting a thread like this except to find more people to pick on. If you're trying to educate yourself about game balance issues and player consent, asking everyone "Are you a good person? Y/N" is getting off to a bad start.

edited for vitriolic content