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Breakdown of each of my armies on the cheese scale. (1 being fluffier than a space marine captain with a chainsword and plasma pistol, 10 being as bad as the Urza Block in MTG)
Orks - Hard to cheese with a weak army even if I wanted to. Most OP thing I have is a Blitz Brigade so basically a wall of AV14 is typically the only targets presented on the board on turn 1. 4/10
Tau - Despite being the army that is the top 3 of internet rage my Tau are fairly tame with my preferred tactic being Fire Warrior spam with deep striking crisis suits. Some may frown on my Ethereal powered Fire Warrior gunline backed up by a crisis suit hammer blow but its not close to the power of some other lists. 5/10
Grey Knights - Well Nemesis Strike Force with 2 Dreadknights, Terminators, Libby, Purifiers, and an Inq detachment with a lot of psychic shriek firing out the top hatch of chimeras. Not that strong but the list isn't designed to hold back any (although I rarely if ever use invis because that power is bonkers broken). 6.5/10
Space Wolves - Normally I wouldn't say they are cheese but Wulfen are stupidly strong and can be used to cause some turn 1 charges with Skyclaws, Thunder Wolves, and Bikers. My goal is to have 40 skyclaws, 5 WG bikers, 10 wulfen, and a few land speeders/ GHs from the Fire Howlers great pack potentially making a lot of turn 1 charges. It could be a very fun list or it could be broken as gak, need to actually get my boat load of jump packs magnetized and painted up to properly field test them. ?/10 (but smelling quite cheesy).
"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise"
Traditio wrote: Yeah, I don't think that free transports are even remotely cheesy. A free rhino for a 5 man marine squad, or a free razorback for a 10 man marine squad, are well within the bounds of what can be considered reasonable.
A belief that I'm sure has nothing to do with the fact that you play C:SM with lots of free transports...
Of course by your own "things people complain about a lot" standard for "cheese" free transports are cheese. And there's a legitimate point to that. The whole reason we have points at all is that each thing is supposed to have a point cost roughly equal to its power. Getting tons of points in free transports is essentially bringing a 1750 list to a 1500 point game. And how many times have you complained about people getting "extra" points by bringing Wraithknights? If a Wraithknight is cheese because it costs (in your opinion) 100 points less than it should then a Rhino or Razorback that costs zero points is certainly cheese!
This reasoning is fundamentally flawed.
You're not paying 0 points for a rhino or a razorback.
You are paying 70 or more points for a unit which includes 5 tactical, assault or devastator marines and a rhino or razorback.
And even that's not really a fair assessment. You only get the free rhinos or razorbacks if you take a battle company.
So, in fact, you are paying over a thousand points for:
A captain A chaplain 6 tactical squads 2 devastator squads 2 assault marine squads An auxillary selection (e.g., 3 scout marine squads) Rhinos and razorbacks for the squads who can take them. Ultramarine chapter tactics
You can't just look at the "free" transports in isolation. There is no space marines list composed solely of free transports. They have to be factored into the total cost of the unit and formation respectively.
That's why I say that "free" rhinos isn't cheesy. Free razorbacks is if you only pay for 5 man squads. Free rhinos isn't.
Marines aren't worth 14 ppm against eldar, tau, necrons, or practically anyone else, for that matter. They practically die like orks and guardsmen.
Rhinos probably aren't worth 35 points in the current meta. It has practically no offensive capacity, moves at normal vehicle speed, is not a skimmer and only has front and side AV of 11.
Again, you're not getting a "free" rhino." In the current edition, what you're actually paying for is a marine with a heavy or special weapon (who is going to be the only one consistently doing damage), 4 ablative wounds and an AV value for 80 points or more.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2016/05/21 19:04:18
Traditio wrote: Yeah, I don't think that free transports are even remotely cheesy. A free rhino for a 5 man marine squad, or a free razorback for a 10 man marine squad, are well within the bounds of what can be considered reasonable.
A belief that I'm sure has nothing to do with the fact that you play C:SM with lots of free transports...
Of course by your own "things people complain about a lot" standard for "cheese" free transports are cheese. And there's a legitimate point to that. The whole reason we have points at all is that each thing is supposed to have a point cost roughly equal to its power. Getting tons of points in free transports is essentially bringing a 1750 list to a 1500 point game. And how many times have you complained about people getting "extra" points by bringing Wraithknights? If a Wraithknight is cheese because it costs (in your opinion) 100 points less than it should then a Rhino or Razorback that costs zero points is certainly cheese!
This reasoning is fundamentally flawed.
You're not paying 0 points for a rhino or a razorback.
You are paying 70 or more points for a unit which includes 5 tactical, assault or devastator marines and a rhino or razorback.
And even that's not really a fair assessment. You only get the free rhinos or razorbacks if you take a battle company.
So, in fact, you are paying over a thousand points for:
A captain
A chaplain
6 tactical squads
2 devastator squads
2 assault marine squads
An auxillary selection (e.g., 3 scout marine squads)
Rhinos and razorbacks for the squads who can take them.
You can't just look at the "free" transports in isolation. You don't get free transports. They have to be factored into the total cost of the unit and formation respectively.
That's why I say that "free" rhinos isn't cheesy. Free razorbacks is if you only pay for 5 man squads. Free rhinos isn't.
Marines aren't worth 14 ppm against eldar, tau, necrons, etc. They practically die like orks and guardsmen.
Yes, but the units alone count for that - you buy the units like anyone else does. The units are worth their points values.
Take a look at the Tactical Squad entry. Tell me how much a Tactical Squad costs. That is the cost of the unit - 5 Tactical Marines. Just Tactical Marines.
Then tell me how much an Assault Squad is. That is what an Assault Squad is - 5 Assault Marines. Just Assault Marines.
Then a Devastator Squad.
So on, so forth, for the entire Battle Company and a random Auxillary choice.
That is the cost of the units. Nowhere does a cost for a Rhino or Razorback come up.
I could take these units across an Unbound army, with multiple Chapter Tactics across them. I wouldn't see any free Rhinos or Razorbacks. Or just sans that Captain. Now, when I buy that Captain, sure he is now Captain + all those Rhinos and Razorbacks, no?
To summarise, are you saying that a fully Imperial Fist Battle Company with free transports = a mixed Chapter Tactic Battle Company (let's say half Imperial Fists, half Ultramarines), despite taking exactly the same units and at exactly the same points cost. i've taken the same units, but are you saying that the Ultramarine Chapter Tactic on half of the Company is worth all your free vehicles?
Also, your argument on the vehicles is flawed. I can still buy a Razorback for a ten man squad, or a Rhino for a five man. Nothing prevents that - I just can't embark everyone in it. The Rhino isn't the problem. I could not care less about the tank. It's the fact you get it for free, and that principle that if you take certain stuff, you get to reduce the cost of that stuff overall for stuff you can use.
Again, your argument on Marine value is not relevant. Marines die anyway, anyhow (and certainly not at the rate you describe - Necron gauss flayers kill Marines just like bolters do, and the general Necron ranged game isn't that OP - it's the opportunity of their durability. Play Orks instead, as you love to tell Tau players. See who dies faster.) However, a squad of 5 Space Marines alone pays for 5 Space Marines. Not 5 Space Marines and a transport. That 14 ppm pays for a Marine. Reduce that cost, but it's still a single Marine. If you want to address the issue of Marine durability or cost, increase the durability or reduce the cost to achieve better balance. Do not give free stuff to compensate.
Your argument also suggests that Marines are worth varying amounts against different armies. You say they are worth <14 ppm against Tau/Eldar/Necrons. But what do they cost vs Guardsmen, CSM, Orks? DO you still get your free transports against them? Do you cost more because you're fighting a weaker enemy? Please answer this.
I tell you what. Play a game against any codex you want using C:SM (except perhaps Chaos Space Marines). However:
1. No drop pods
2. No grav
3. No "free" transports.
4. No psykers.
5. You MUST run a full battle company, but without benefitting from the free transports rule.
6. No allies.
Tell me how that game goes.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/21 19:14:19
I tell you what. Play a game against any codex you want using C:SM (except perhaps Chaos Space Marines). However:
1. No drop pods 2. No grav 3. No "free" transports. 4. No psykers. 5. You MUST run a full battle company, but without benefitting from the free transports rule. 6. No allies.
Tell me how that game goes.
Already done, played Orks and Tau allies. Guess what?
Spoiler:
I loved the game. Won the game, close though.
I ran full ten man squads on all my Tacticals and Assault Squad, with paid Rhinos on three Tactical Squads, heavy bolters on one Devastator Squad with a paid HB Razorback, flamers on my Bikes, lascannons on my Centurions, and ran my Shield Eternal Captain with Honour Guard in a Land Raider Crusader. My auxiliary was a 1st Company Strikeforce, Tactical and Assault Termies Deep Striking, a min sized unit of Sternguard holding a backfield objective, and an Armoured Strikeforce consisting of a Whirlwind, Vindicator and Predator, with Techmarine.
What were you trying to prove?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/21 19:22:24
I tell you what. Play a game against any codex you want using C:SM (except perhaps Chaos Space Marines). However:
1. No drop pods
2. No grav
3. No "free" transports.
4. No psykers.
5. You MUST run a full battle company, but without benefitting from the free transports rule.
6. No allies.
Tell me how that game goes.
No Psykers? A full Battle Company? Are you trying to run the most static list imaginable?
How about I put everything in a vehicle and drive you nuts with 12 tanks on the board?
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
I tell you what. Play a game against any codex you want using C:SM (except perhaps Chaos Space Marines). However:
1. No drop pods
2. No grav
3. No "free" transports.
4. No psykers.
5. You MUST run a full battle company, but without benefitting from the free transports rule.
6. No allies.
Tell me how that game goes.
Heck, I do this on a weekly basis and most of my games go pretty well for me. Even those that are against Tau/Eldar/Crons.
TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
Can Plain Ol' CSM even be cheesy? I'm just gonna mark no and move on...
"Because we couldn't be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.
The Wolves will always come to the heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does.
That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."
- Eighth Captain Khârn
I tell you what. Play a game against any codex you want using C:SM (except perhaps Chaos Space Marines). However:
1. No drop pods
2. No grav
3. No "free" transports.
4. No psykers.
5. You MUST run a full battle company, but without benefitting from the free transports rule.
6. No allies.
Tell me how that game goes.
Heck, I do this on a weekly basis and most of my games go pretty well for me. Even those that are against Tau/Eldar/Crons.
I would like to hear more of this. Details?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/22 05:04:47
Mr_Piddlez wrote: Can Plain Ol' CSM even be cheesy? I'm just gonna mark no and move on...
It's extremely difficult. Do you run an army consisting only of defilers (and even then, defilers are expensive, points wise) and helldrakes?
I honestly laughed at the defiler thing. You may be thinking of the soul grinder that demons get. Similar looking models, very different power levels. Heldrake wise, I only run one, but even with three, there is enough anti air in the game to deal with them. The limited firing arc doesn't help either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/22 05:17:28
"Because we couldn't be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.
The Wolves will always come to the heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does.
That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."
- Eighth Captain Khârn
Currently I play a cheesy list, a CSM + Cabal + KDK deathstar.
It's the only way to realistically fight for the top tables of a tournament on CSM however.
No one really complains, they think getting beaten by CSM is great. Gladius Strike Forces can't even touch the deathstar as mostly they are filled with grav. Against the chaos star they require a 6 to hit, 6 to wound, after which I have an Invulnerable/Shrouded Cover Save and a 4+ Feel No Pain. And a unit with around 47 Wounds that Scouts, moves 12" a turn ignoring difficult terrain and has a 2+ Cover Save in Ruins.
Run as a wide line, charge the enemys metal boxes, afterwards eat the marines inside for dessert.
It don't matter if you get it for free if it gets wrecked on turn 2.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/22 05:36:42
I have a pretty decent sized IF army so I can run pretty much anything. If we play a cutthroat game, I'll bring the bike conclave, sternhammer (army is stubborn and all bolt weapons are basically TL) and Grav Cents. If not, I'm probably bringing sternguard and my blender units.
My KDK, I don't think I can make cheese out of. Same can be said for my Noise Marines w/traitor guard allies.
Traditio wrote: Yeah, I don't think that free transports are even remotely cheesy. A free rhino for a 5 man marine squad, or a free razorback for a 10 man marine squad, are well within the bounds of what can be considered reasonable.
This is the person who says Fire Warriors with Pulse Rifles are OP, everyone. \o/
Just wait 'till I throw my Ethereal and Railfinders into the mix! You'll all be drowning in cheese!
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Already done, played Orks and Tau allies.
I'm not entirely sure what this means. You played a game in which you used ultramarines, and your opponent was using orks with tau allies?
I ran full ten man squads on all my Tacticals and Assault Squad
How many squads of tactical marines did you run?
Did you put jump packs on that assault squad? If you did, you can't field a rhino with them as a dedicated transport.
flamers on my Bikes
Bikes can't field a rhino as a dedicated transport.
lascannons on my Centurions
Centurions can't field a rhino, etc. as a dedicated transport.
and ran my Shield Eternal Captain with Honour Guard in a Land Raider Crusader.
1. You can only bring honor guard in a gladius if you take the Strike Force Command selection.
2. Chaplain?
My auxiliary was a 1st Company Strikeforce, Tactical and Assault Termies Deep Striking, a min sized unit of Sternguard holding a backfield objective, and an Armoured Strikeforce consisting of a Whirlwind, Vindicator and Predator, with Techmarine.
What was the points limit for this game?
At any rate, you're criticizing free transports in the gladius strike force battle company, and my response to this was: "Fine. Then play a battle company without them." You responded by saying that you fielded a bunch of units that can't even take free transports in the first place. Let me be more specific, Sgt. Smudge:
You play a game wherein you use:
A captain A chaplain 6 tactical squads 2 devastator squads 2 assault marine squads without jump packs.
Plus an auxillary of your choice.
And you actually pay the 350 or 550 points on 10 rhinos or razorbacks.
Do not use drop pods, psykers or grav.
Play against absolutely anyone other than orks or chaos space marines.
Tell me how that game goes.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/22 20:34:15
I think you are still trying to get people to play like you do... Have you purchased a tank by any chance, Traditio?
H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
Tactical_Spam wrote: I think you are still trying to get people to play like you do... Have you purchased a tank by any chance, Traditio?
Why would he purchase any models ? Don't you know people should tailor their list against what models he has and not bring anything that can do any real sorta of damage to his units or face the wrath of being called "Cheese" and/or "Overpowered" ?
Sgt_Smudge wrote:Already done, played Orks and Tau allies.
I'm not entirely sure what this means. You played a game in which you used ultramarines, and your opponent was using orks with tau allies?
I'm sure you know what this means.
I played an Ultramarines list, against a player who fielded Orks and Tau. I cannot remember which of the two was the Primary Detachment, but he certainly took more points of Tau than he did Orks.
I ran full ten man squads on all my Tacticals and Assault Squad
How many squads of tactical marines did you run?
Did you put jump packs on that assault squad? If you did, you can't field a rhino with them as a dedicated transport.
I'm not sure if you're trying to insult my intelligence, so I'll assume not.
I am aware of what can take transports, and that 6 Tactical Squads make up a Company.
6 ten man squads were taken, three of which I gave Rhinos.
My Assault Marines (ten man) were using jump packs. Why would I have wanted a Rhino on them?
flamers on my Bikes
Bikes can't field a rhino as a dedicated transport.
Again, I'm not sure if you take me for a fool.
I am aware of this - and fail to see why this is relevant.
lascannons on my Centurions
Centurions can't field a rhino, etc. as a dedicated transport.
My point above. I am aware they cannot take Rhinos.
and ran my Shield Eternal Captain with Honour Guard in a Land Raider Crusader.
1. You can only bring honor guard in a gladius if you take the Strike Force Command selection.
2. Chaplain?
I am aware of this. I assumed you realise that I took a Strike Force Command - not a problem with your previous restrictions. I did forget to mention Sicarius following them, but I fail to see how this then becomes relevant.
My Chaplain was with my Assault Marines - with a jump pack, funnily enough.
My auxiliary was a 1st Company Strikeforce, Tactical and Assault Termies Deep Striking, a min sized unit of Sternguard holding a backfield objective, and an Armoured Strikeforce consisting of a Whirlwind, Vindicator and Predator, with Techmarine.
What was the points limit for this game?
Big. I can't remember the exacts, but I think somewhere between 3k-4k?
At any rate, you're criticizing free transports in the gladius strike force battle company, and my response to this was: "Fine. Then play a battle company without them." You responded by saying that you fielded a bunch of units that can't even take free transports in the first place.
Which you never prohibited in your inital statement. I fielded what you asked for - a Gladius with a Battle Company with no drop pods, pskyers, grav, free transports against CSM.
I took a list I wanted. That happened to include units which cannot take transports because
1) I do not own the models to set it up in any other way (unless I proxied some guys as Devastators, or halved my Assault Squad size - both of which either anti-fluff (the half size Assault Squad) or not aesthetically pleasing and would result in a poor spectacle.
2) I prefer those units in my battle plan. Taking transports was not essential to my winning, and my result proved it.
Case in point - I took a Battle Company. Battle Companies can use Centurions and Bikes - I used this fact.
Let me be more specific, Sgt. Smudge:
You play a game wherein you use:
A captain
A chaplain
6 tactical squads
2 devastator squads
2 assault marine squads without jump packs.
Plus an auxillary of your choice.
And you actually pay the 350 or 550 points on 10 rhinos or razorbacks.
Do not use drop pods, psykers or grav.
Play against absolutely anyone other than orks or chaos space marines.
Tell me how that game goes.
SWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISH
IS THAT THE SOUND OF MOVING GOALPOSTS I HEAR?
For your ease, I have bolded the instances where you move the goalpost from your original statement.
1) You told me to field a Battle Company. Which I did. You never specified I had to take certain units from my selection. Battle Companies allow for more than just power armoured infantry, funnily enough.
2) You never said I was obliged to take transports - especially when they don't fit with my combat strategy.
3) You only said CSM was an unfair matchup. Now you see I fought Orks, you move the goalposts again.
TL;DR
I win this one. I obeyed your initial request. Recognise that.
Tactical_Spam wrote: I think you are still trying to get people to play like you do... Have you purchased a tank by any chance, Traditio?
Why would he purchase any models ? Don't you know people should tailor their list against what models he has and not bring anything that can do any real sorta of damage to his units or face the wrath of being called "Cheese" and/or "Overpowered" ?
My point:
It's commonly recognized that the kind of army that I've described is not particularly competitive. If you actually ran that army, you would be at a severe disadvantages in most cases. You need free rhinos just to make for an even match-up.
"Free" rhinos aren't OP or cheesy.
Grav, librarian and drop pod shenanigans? Cheesy as cheesy comes, at least, potentially.
"Free" rhinos?
Not so much.
The points system is supposed to effect equality. Let's assume a "free" rhino:
Is 5 tactical marines with bolters and a "free" rhino (70 points) slightly better than a space marine bike squad? (63 points)
Is 5 tactical marines with bolters and a "free" rhino slightly worse than a squad of 3 scatter bikes? (81 points)
I know this:
5 tactical marines with bolters with a rhino (105 points) is not significantly better than a space marine bike squad (63 points), nor are 5 tactical marines with bolters and a rhino significantly better than 3 scatter bikes.
Sgt. Smudge will answer that the individual units themselves need to have their points adjusted.
But it's not that simple. Running a tactical squad in a CAD isn't the same thing as running 6 tactical squads in a battle company.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/22 21:39:08
Tactical_Spam wrote: I think you are still trying to get people to play like you do... Have you purchased a tank by any chance, Traditio?
Why would he purchase any models ? Don't you know people should tailor their list against what models he has and not bring anything that can do any real sorta of damage to his units or face the wrath of being called "Cheese" and/or "Overpowered" ?
Not to mention if you spend £85 or more (the price of a Knight), you should had given that money to charity?
I'm starting to doubt if this hobby is the one for you, Traditio.
I win this one. I obeyed your initial request. Recognise that.
Yes. If you run a battle company in such a way that you largely obviate the need for free transports, then you can still be competitive even without free transports.
[sarcasm]Congratulations. Point well made.[/sarcasm]
The point that you are making here is just asinine.
The spirit behind my point is that a battle company without free transports, if you run it in such a way that you could indeed get 10 or so free transports, generally does not do well without free transports.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/22 21:36:25
I win this one. I obeyed your initial request. Recognise that.
Yes. If you run a battle company in such a way that you largely obviate the need for free transports, then you can still be competitive even without free transports.
[sarcasm]Congratulations. Point well made.[/sarcasm]
The point that you are making here is just asinine.
The spirit behind my point is that a battle company without free transports, if you run it in such a way that you could indeed get 10 or so free transports, generally does not do well without free transports.
Ummm,,, He could have taken free transports. He *DIDN'T* and still won. His army was in no way optimal. He had 10 man squads for crying out loud. He was paying for extra bolter dudes when those points could have gone towards more units and more special weapons.
He still won.
Tell me again how bad Marines are and how anything that doesn't carry Grav is utterly worthless...
I win this one. I obeyed your initial request. Recognise that.
Yes. If you run a battle company in such a way that you largely obviate the need for free transports, then you can still be competitive even without free transports.
[sarcasm]Congratulations. Point well made.[/sarcasm]
The point that you are making here is just asinine.
The spirit behind my point is that a battle company without free transports, if you run it in such a way that you could indeed get 10 or so free transports, generally does not do well without free transports.
The spirit of your argument is WRONG.
I, with my (albeit anecdotal) evidence - which you asked for - disproved it. I won a game using a Battle Company without free transports. I dislike using said free transports, and instead run units which I like for aesthetic and gameplay reasons. Funnily enough, I did not take this list with knowledge of your asinine challenge. I ran it for personal pleasure.
Your ORIGINAL point: You cannot win with a Battle Company without abusing the free transports.
Me: Yes I can.
You: *blotting out my evidence and moving the goalposts*
SWIIISH
Lord Corellia wrote:Ummm,,, He could have taken free transports. He *DIDN'T* and still won. His army was in no way optimal. He had 10 man squads for crying out loud. He was paying for extra bolter dudes when those points could have gone towards more units and more special weapons.
10 man squads isn't "extra" bolters. He likely had the same number of bolters as he would have, had he taken 2 - five man squads. 8 bolters. The difference is that, instead of 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons, he likely took 1 of each.
He still won.
"Orks." Do I really have to point out the fact that his opponent was using orks?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:The spirit of your argument is WRONG. I, with my (albeit anecdotal) evidence - which you asked for - disproved it. I won a game using a Battle Company without free transports. I dislike using said free transports, and instead run units which I like for aesthetic and gameplay reasons. Funnily enough, I did not take this list with knowledge of your asinine challenge. I ran it for personal pleasure.
Your ORIGINAL point: You cannot win with a Battle Company without abusing the free transports.
Me: Yes I can.
You: *blotting out my evidence and moving the goalposts* SWIIISH
I am going to ask you a simple question:
Suppose player A runs:
A captain A chaplain 6 tactical squads 2 devastator squads 2 assault marines without jump packs. 3 scout squads 10 rhinos
Assume that he is paying the full points costs for all of the above, and is not using grav weaponry.
How would he do against the point equivalence of tau?
Eldar?
Imperial Guard?
Dark Eldar?
Automatically Appended Next Post: One further point, Sgt:
What was your opponent running? Yes, I get ork + tau allies.
What kinds of units?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/05/22 21:54:51
Lord Corellia wrote:Ummm,,, He could have taken free transports. He *DIDN'T* and still won. His army was in no way optimal. He had 10 man squads for crying out loud. He was paying for extra bolter dudes when those points could have gone towards more units and more special weapons.
10 man squads isn't "extra" bolters. He likely had the same number of bolters as he would have, had he taken 2 - five man squads. 8 bolters. The difference is that, instead of 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons, he likely took 1 of each.
He still won.
"Orks." Do I really have to point out the fact that his opponent was using orks?
SWIIIIIIIIIISH
Goalposts are zipping all over the place.
My opponent took more points of TAU than Orks. Does that not balance out according to you?
My typical Tactical Squad loadouts were heavy weapon and special.
Two of these squads were F/ML Two were PG/LC, with power weapons and combi-plasmas on the Sergeants.
The last two were MG/MM/combi-melta
For the record - I only EVER use ten man squads. Five mans feel wrong to me, and a proper Battle Company should have maxed out power armoured squads where possible. My only exception is on Devastator and Centurion Squads.
They took some units of Trukk boys and plenty of footsloggers, Painboyz in some units, some Tankbustas and rokkit Deffkoptas, DLS Warboss and PK Nob retinue in a Battlewagon with KFF Big Mek.
The Tau end was two full units of Fire Warriors in transports, a Riptide, Crisis Bomb (plasma rifles), MSU Pathfinders, with a Fireblade and Commander.
Don't hold me too closely to this - I cannot recall if I've forgotten stuff and various upgrades, but this is the stuff I remember. That's the gist of it.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: They took some units of Trukk boys and plenty of footsloggers, Painboyz in some units, some Tankbustas and rokkit Deffkoptas, DLS Warboss and PK Nob retinue in a Battlewagon with KFF Big Mek.
The Tau end was two full units of Fire Warriors in transports, a Riptide, Crisis Bomb (plasma rifles), MSU Pathfinders, with a Fireblade and Commander.
Don't hold me too closely to this - I cannot recall if I've forgotten stuff and various upgrades, but this is the stuff I remember. That's the gist of it.
Would it be fair to describe your opponent's list as a "fun" list which the average dakka fora member would not consider as even remotely competitive?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: They took some units of Trukk boys and plenty of footsloggers, Painboyz in some units, some Tankbustas and rokkit Deffkoptas, DLS Warboss and PK Nob retinue in a Battlewagon with KFF Big Mek.
The Tau end was two full units of Fire Warriors in transports, a Riptide, Crisis Bomb (plasma rifles), MSU Pathfinders, with a Fireblade and Commander.
Don't hold me too closely to this - I cannot recall if I've forgotten stuff and various upgrades, but this is the stuff I remember. That's the gist of it.
Would it be fair to describe your opponent's list as a "fun" list which the average dakka fora member would not consider as even remotely competitive?
I'd say it was a fun list. Not a pushover, but certainly not competitive. I won't deny that.
Now, I'm waiting for the point you will make - "BUT IT WASN'T COMPETITIVE SO MY POINT IS VALID".
It's not.
Your statement = A Battle Company CANNOT win without using the free transports.
Not only did I win, but I did so using sub-par tools (full Tactical Squads - no grav or Drop Pods - mixed vehicle support - Tactical Termies) and beat a non-competitive, mediocre list.
Against your statement, I have done all that was asked.
Hard to cheese with a weak army even if I wanted to. Most 
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ 
+ 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
bag!"
