Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

LockeWatts wrote:
Just give up arguing with Martel. The guy can't do math and doesn't understand that we're not in the beginning of 6th edition anymore, so he just whines on and on incessantly in every thread.

For the record, for anyone reading, Riptides are not good. They're durable, but require hundreds of points of markerlight support to be considered effective at killing anything.

Even then, an iron hands command squad will single handedly run down and destroy an entire tau army. So I dunno what the complaint really is, that Tau aren't even worse than they already are?

Yep - those 5 inch blast are real hard to hit with without markerlights...sometimes it scatters and I only kill 4-5 marines instead of 8 of them. Riptide is weak. It's only immune to damage and only has a 72 inch vindi blast and interceptor and a TL plasma gun.

LockeWatts wrote:
Just give up arguing with Martel. The guy can't do math and doesn't understand that we're not in the beginning of 6th edition anymore, so he just whines on and on incessantly in every thread.

For the record, for anyone reading, Riptides are not good. They're durable, but require hundreds of points of markerlight support to be considered effective at killing anything.

Even then, an iron hands command squad will single handedly run down and destroy an entire tau army. So I dunno what the complaint really is, that Tau aren't even worse than they already are?

I can't do math? Okay. Riptide wing a thing that requires zero markerlight support. And even a base Riptide has an AP 2 battlecannon that can't be suppressed.

And I think it's Tau players that continually gloss over the math of how crazy durable Riptides are. Continually. Add up the points costs of lascannons to kill the thing in two turns.

" an iron hands command squad will single handedly run down and destroy an entire tau army. "

Now who needs to L2P?

At the end of the day, I don't care how powerful the Riptide is, as long as the point cost reflects it. Which it doesn't. At all. It's far too cheap for how much it takes to drop the thing. It's functionally immune to too many weapon systems in the game for its price.

If we want to get technical about tiers I place Tau and Chaos Renegades at tier 1.5. There is no official designation for tier 1.5 lists. They have the tools to wreck the mid tier badly but lack tools to win against the high tier ones barring the occasional win.

Most people don't consider tier 1.5 to be a thing.

 Gamgee wrote:
If we want to get technical about tiers I place Tau and Chaos Renegades at tier 1.5. There is no official designation for tier 1.5 lists. They have the tools to wreck the mid tier badly but lack tools to win against the high tier ones barring the occasional win.

Most people don't consider tier 1.5 to be a thing.

I don't see why not. That's basically my analysis.

I still can't believe there are people that think the riptide isn't absurdly good when literally every tau list I've seen near top tables has a full wing of them.

...But then again there are also people that think terminators are fine or that battle company isn't very good. \o.o/

I'll just chalk it up to most of the Internet having no idea what they're talking about.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I still can't believe there are people that think the riptide isn't absurdly good when literally every tau list I've seen near top tables has a full wing of them.

...But then again there are also people that think terminators are fine or that battle company isn't very good. \o.o/

I'll just chalk it up to most of the Internet having no idea what they're talking about.

They can't own it. I own 3rd ed BA and 5th ed BA. I won a lot of battles just because I had a lot of math on my side. I admit it. It got harder and harder in both editions, though. The units you have to field to survive Tau shooting are a) insane b) not fun to play with or against and c) not available to all lists. Why does one have to field such units? Well one big reason is that Tau guns, unlike IG guns, can't be suppressed in any way. The 1W Riptide vaporizes my 2+ armor guys just as well as the 5W Riptide. That kind of benefit is hard to quantify in a unit price, but GW doesn't even try. So the only choice left is to field units that can withstand AP 2 blast after AP 2 blast after dozens and dozens of S7 and S5 shots.

 Xenomancers wrote:
First - tau are top tier. The riptide - is easily the hardest unit to kill in the game. A flying hive tyrant or belkor are hard to kill too BUT - both of these things have to get in close to the enemy to deal damage. A riptide can sit back on it's back lines a JSJ from behind a building firing 72 inch vidi blasts without going nova. Thats a defensive stance! Offensively they jump into area cover at the middle of the table and beg to get shot at and will still likely be ignored. Drop pod sterngard? IA and TL plasma gun to the face - at least half the squad destroyed - the rest do a few wounds maybe - then get wrecked in assault. About the only thing riptides can't handle is superfriends no one can handle that gak.

"Hardest unit to kill in the game" what happens when someone shows up with a scratch built manta?

I'm sorry sir, but if your hoping to open up with the grandest of lies don't be surprised if people do not trust your words. Either your biased, don't believe in forge world and super heavies, or are really ignorant. All of these kill credibility.

Super friends can be beat. I've seen it.

Why would a riptide charge anything?

Also thank you whoever mentioned scat bikes. Those gut riptides.

Actually Riptides are one of the few units that are a poor target for scatbikes. Do the math on how many shots it takes to down a Stimtide. It's out of reach for even scatbikes.

The IK can't mount a ranged weapon that threatens the Riptide in any way. Doesn't that set off some warning bells? Can the Ork SHW? I don't know. The only ranged threat I know of to the Riptide is the WK and tons of grav cannons. Not guns. Cannons.

Scatterbikes are great against damn near everything. That said, you need about 900pts worth of scatterbikes to kill an FNP'd Riptide, so they're not all *that* amazing at killing Riptides.

That said, while they may not be *the* hardest unit to kill in the game, for what they cost they are definitely *one of the* hardest units in the game to kill.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Scatterbikes are great against damn near everything. That said, you need about 900pts worth of scatterbikes to kill an FNP'd Riptide, so they're not all *that* amazing at killing Riptides.

That said, while they may not be *the* hardest unit to kill in the game, for what they cost they are definitely *one of the* hardest units in the game to kill.

For their cost, they might be the hardest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Scatterbikes are great against damn near everything. That said, you need about 900pts worth of scatterbikes to kill an FNP'd Riptide, so they're not all *that* amazing at killing Riptides.

That said, while they may not be *the* hardest unit to kill in the game, for what they cost they are definitely *one of the* hardest units in the game to kill.

A 900 pts investment to kill 200 pts is a good way to lose real fast. That's why I said it's not a good target for scatbikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
First - tau are top tier. The riptide - is easily the hardest unit to kill in the game. A flying hive tyrant or belkor are hard to kill too BUT - both of these things have to get in close to the enemy to deal damage. A riptide can sit back on it's back lines a JSJ from behind a building firing 72 inch vidi blasts without going nova. Thats a defensive stance! Offensively they jump into area cover at the middle of the table and beg to get shot at and will still likely be ignored. Drop pod sterngard? IA and TL plasma gun to the face - at least half the squad destroyed - the rest do a few wounds maybe - then get wrecked in assault. About the only thing riptides can't handle is superfriends no one can handle that gak.

"Hardest unit to kill in the game" what happens when someone shows up with a scratch built manta?

I'm sorry sir, but if your hoping to open up with the grandest of lies don't be surprised if people do not trust your words. Either your biased, don't believe in forge world and super heavies, or are really ignorant. All of these kill credibility.

Super friends can be beat. I've seen it.

Why would a riptide charge anything?

Also thank you whoever mentioned scat bikes. Those gut riptides.

Riptides charge to finish off crippled squads all the time. Free AP 2 on S6 attacks is awesome. WS and Init are garbage stats.

Indeed, smash is a great melee ability, and it's honestly silly that it's on a shooty MC.

I frequently see them fight their points-worth of generalist units in melee and come out on top. (You would think that being a shooty unit, engaging its own point cost worth of generalists in melee would be suicide, but nope!) It's also not that weird of a result for a tide to ice a fully healthy death company dreadnought in cc, which is just dumb.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
First - tau are top tier. The riptide - is easily the hardest unit to kill in the game. A flying hive tyrant or belkor are hard to kill too BUT - both of these things have to get in close to the enemy to deal damage. A riptide can sit back on it's back lines a JSJ from behind a building firing 72 inch vidi blasts without going nova. Thats a defensive stance! Offensively they jump into area cover at the middle of the table and beg to get shot at and will still likely be ignored. Drop pod sterngard? IA and TL plasma gun to the face - at least half the squad destroyed - the rest do a few wounds maybe - then get wrecked in assault. About the only thing riptides can't handle is superfriends no one can handle that gak.

"Hardest unit to kill in the game" what happens when someone shows up with a scratch built manta?

I'm sorry sir, but if your hoping to open up with the grandest of lies don't be surprised if people do not trust your words. Either your biased, don't believe in forge world and super heavies, or are really ignorant. All of these kill credibility.

Super friends can be beat. I've seen it.

Why would a riptide charge anything?

Also thank you whoever mentioned scat bikes. Those gut riptides.

Obviously I'm speaking per cost when it comes to surviablity. My credibility is quite strong actually - riptides are insanely hard to kill with nearly no coparison to any other unit near it's cost - this is a fact of 40k - no one disputes it because it's indisputable. Forgeworld super heavies are expensive as fck - a riptide is cheap enough you can fit 3-5 in an 1850 and still have points to play with.

You aren't actually playing the game if you are asking a question like..."why would a riptide charge anything?" It's part of the reason Riptides are so over the top. They don't bend over in CC - in fact - they have favorable outcomes vs anything that doesn't have force and or AP 2...typically those are expensive assault units that cost twice what your riptide does and you just thrust move away from those. If it's a sterngard squad - you murder it in CC in 2-3 rounds of CC and you likely wont take a single wound. A riptide can actually stall a premium assault unit for several turns (most tau have not even thought about this - they are too busy erasing 3-4 enemy units a turn with ease to actually think about strategy). Maybe you play in meta that uses 2-3 superheavies in its standards games...still even then - Riptides are phenomenal. Whats better to have around than EWO vindi blast intercepting the feth out of the suicide melta squads trying to kill your Titans? Whats better than a MC that can take a few D hits and keep on trucking thanks to having 5 wounds? They are over the top dude...my credibility is solid. All one needs to do is look at any tau list consisting of 2-3 minimum riptides and I rest my case.

Please remember that the FAQ screwed over gets hot blast weapons. Used to be that we could take Shadowsun and her drone and reroll the ones, or buff the BS above six to get the same result. But now.we cannot because 'reasons'.

Bs 6 still works.

 carldooley wrote:
Please remember that the FAQ screwed over gets hot blast weapons. Used to be that we could take Shadowsun and her drone and reroll the ones, or buff the BS above six to get the same result. But now.we cannot because 'reasons'.

Unfortunate really - I guess a buffmander found a new home . I have just started playing tau myself. I can still admit that the riptide is insane - partially it's the reason I starting building them up in the first place. The other reason is gundam style finally got to me. Also remember that the FAQ is not rule yet. There will be an official FAQ that might change things.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
Please remember that the FAQ screwed over gets hot blast weapons. Used to be that we could take Shadowsun and her drone and reroll the ones, or buff the BS above six to get the same result. But now.we cannot because 'reasons'.

Unfortunate really - I guess a buffmander found a new home . I have just started playing tau myself. I can still admit that the riptide is insane - partially it's the reason I starting building them up in the first place. The other reason is gundam style finally got to me. Also remember that the FAQ is not rule yet. There will be an official FAQ that might change things.

Just remember that even with all the complaints about the Riptide, you are still paying roughly the same points as a Land Raider for a single platform, and like a Land Raider, on its own, it is gak. Supported though, it is an entirely different can of worms. Just like the Stormsurge, just like that Land Raider.

A Riptide has far more more capability on its own than a Land Raider. It's resilient, mobile, and putting out Leman Russ equivalent firepower.

That's a false analogy. The land raider is a terrible vehicle no matter what you put with it. The riptide is very functional on its own. The riptide is cheaper than a lr and much more durable.

 Vaktathi wrote:
A Riptide has far more more capability on its own than a Land Raider. It's resilient, mobile, and putting out Leman Russ equivalent firepower.

fine lets run with that. a Leman Russ is 150 pts? How much is a Riptide?

The point that I was trying to make (poorly I will admit) was that Riptides require Force Multipliers. Markerlights to name one.A Land Raider is gak on its own, but put an assault unit within it, and it becomes better.

The point that people tend to overlook is the cost of the supporting models are never figured into the total cost of the platform. What do I tend to run with a gun platform (whether riptide or stormsurge)? A Mark'o, a Crisis squad toting marker drones, weapons and target locks, which tends to run about 300-400 points in supporting points. Their job isn't to kill things on their own, their job is to be ablative wounds for the Mark'o and the drones. Look, I'm effectively paying SHV prices for a properly supported shooting platform. IF IT DOESN'T DELETE A UNIT A TURN WHATS THE FRIGGING POINT?
sorry to the OP for getting the thread sidetracked.

 carldooley wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
A Riptide has far more more capability on its own than a Land Raider. It's resilient, mobile, and putting out Leman Russ equivalent firepower.

fine lets run with that. a Leman Russ is 150 pts? How much is a Riptide?

only if we're assuming a naked Russ, and, like Riptides, have additional weapons. The Riptide also has the ability to Smash assault if necessary, on top of the greater resiliency and mobility.

The point that I was trying to make (poorly I will admit) was that Riptides require Force Multipliers. Markerlights to name one.A Land Raider is gak on its own, but put an assault unit within it, and it becomes better.

I get what you're driving at, but while the Riptide is made *better* by those force multipliers, it can function solo at a far greater level than something like a Land Raider, at least as well as heavy battle tanks but with better resiliency and mobility.

They're not merely semifunctional on their own, at least not in the way something like a Land Raider is.

Hey did someone say L2P in a Tau thread? Do they play Tau? Oh gee golly what to do!

Honestly I rarely have problems with Riptides. Every game I play against them they go down, I either poison them to death with splinter fire or throw a few Talos at them and watch them die to a single round of combat. Sure they do some damage, it would be a surprise if they didn't, but rarely do I feel overly worried about facing them with my Dark Eldar.

The Forgeworld varients and the Stormsurge are a completely different matter though.

 Imateria wrote:
Honestly I rarely have problems with Riptides. Every game I play against them they go down, I either poison them to death with splinter fire or throw a few Talos at them and watch them die to a single round of combat. Sure they do some damage, it would be a surprise if they didn't, but rarely do I feel overly worried about facing them with my Dark Eldar.

The Forgeworld varients and the Stormsurge are a completely different matter though.

I have a hard time believing you can consistently get in enough splinter hits to kill them. It would help though if they weren't stimtides.

I never have a particularly hard time killing riptides.

But then again, I play a Harlequin Freakshow list when I'm playing competitively.

"So what's that riptide's leadership?"

"....eight...."

"Okay great, I'm going to put this guy 12" away, and now it's six. You know how psychic shriek and mirror of minds works?"

Martel732 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Honestly I rarely have problems with Riptides. Every game I play against them they go down, I either poison them to death with splinter fire or throw a few Talos at them and watch them die to a single round of combat. Sure they do some damage, it would be a surprise if they didn't, but rarely do I feel overly worried about facing them with my Dark Eldar.

The Forgeworld varients and the Stormsurge are a completely different matter though.

I have a hard time believing you can consistently get in enough splinter hits to kill them. It would help though if they weren't stimtides.

They were. I could but I don't really run a full Venom spam list, it's more a case of stripping wounds off so that when my Talos get in (and they will) the fight is a foregone conclusion. I generally make sure there's enough threats on the board (Blasters, Dark Lances, Heat Lances) so that Nova Charging the gun beyond the first turn isn't the best of options. Sure, that 3+ invuln is a pain to get through but so is taking on a squad of 5 Talos all rocking Chain Flails and Heat Lances with a Cronos hiding behind them (Thats 6 T7 MC's with 3 wounds each, 3+ armour and 4+ FnP, the Talos are also S7 with twin linked S6, AP1 Lance, Melta guns and re-rolls to wound in close combat with 5 attacks each on the charge).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
I never have a particularly hard time killing riptides.

But then again, I play a Harlequin Freakshow list when I'm playing competitively.

"So what's that riptide's leadership?"

"....eight...."

"Okay great, I'm going to put this guy 12" away, and now it's six. You know how psychic shriek and mirror of minds works?"

I'll never forget the game where my Shadowseer killed a Riptide Turn 1 with Mirror of Minds, best 90pts I'de ever spent!

Ah. I see now. Riptides are ironically not horribly effective vs other MCs. Using poison to weaken them and then assault is pretty good when your assaulting units don't evaporate to the IA.

I'm not seeing a lot wrong with the Riptides atm. People have to remember that Tau are ALL about the shooting as they have nothing for assault nor the psychic phase (emphasis on psychic phase).

Riptides are really good when they are supported by markerlights. They're OK when they are off on their own. Psychic shriek hurts a lot as do Grav and yes these things can reliably kill them. Also taking a Sgt with an AP 2 weapon in a tac squad can take one down if in CC.

Also, as someone who may not play Tau or Riptides, they are typically going end up costing significantly more than 180 points. A typical load out for a Riptide includes:

Early Warning Override- 5 points
Ion Accelerator -5 points
Stimulant Injector (FnP) -35 points
Maybe Earth Caste Array (FSE) - 30 points

In reality, it's at least a 225 point unit.

Clearly it's designed not to be one offed but I have had my Riptides die to Psychic Shriek in one round quite a few times.

I haven't played against Space marines in quite a while but from what I watched from one of the last Frontline Gaming shows (Tau Vs Space Marines), Tau lost with a Riptide Wing and 2 Stormsurges, largely due to being overwhelmed with MSU. So to state that there is a problem with Riptides is a little hollow as it is looking like the meta is swinging a bit back to MSU where MC armies just wont be able to hang.

Riptides are good at assault. Because MC.

I can see where Gladius is an issue, because the IA is far less effective against vehicles than infantry. Couple that with free, obj sec vehices, and the marine wave of impotent tac marines presents too many targets.

For those of us without access to Gladius, and for other Xenos in general, this doesn't help much.

I'm coming to the conclusion that BA libbies are just useless because they lack telepathy lol.

225 pts for that loadout is still super cheap to me. A T6 W5 2+ FNP MC with a large AP 2 blast should be at least 275, given that it is almost immortal. Yes, psychic shriek is a thing, but you've still got FNP and 5 wounds. Compare to what non-Gladius marines can buy for 225 and get back to me to on how fair this thing is.

How is it you are getting in range on the 72" ion accelerator? Again this is poor tau play...it's idiotic play. Oh, you have a ton of ap2 leadership attacks? let me charge my long ranged and mobile model right into your grasp!

Riptides are not fearless and the AP2 due to Smash isn't exciting when you're WS 2. Have you ever had a Riptide lose combat and die due to a sweeping advance after one round? I have. From experience, they are not good in assault and losing them that way is particularly cringe worthy because their FnP and 5 wounds and most of their perks don't matter. No hit an run either. I have had this happen from a Farseer on a bike, so it doesn't take a monster CC unit to do it either. If you are feeling that Riptides are as 'immortal' as you think, I would probably re-evaluate your tactics because they are largely toast in CC. Same goes for Storm surges as their Stomps haven't turned the tide of battle for me yet.

If you are playing a BA and you think 225 is too cheap because Riptides are too hard with the pie plates, I'm not sure that increasing the point count to 275 wouldn't change much for you. You are still going to have a hard time if you were having a hard time before.

If you are playing BA and can't get telepathy, then that is a big downer because psychic shriek is likely (aside from Invis) the best psychic ability in the game. It's borderline broken but it is what is is.