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I'd say 16 pts/model.

The only way I'd pay 3 pts/model for a chainaxe is if it came with Rending.

Again, the issue for this unit is the delivery, as is the case with about 90% of the Chaos Codex.

Even then, these guys aren't amazing.

The problem with stacking so many special rules is that you eventually hit a point of diminishing returns. These guys could have virtually every single special rule in the book. But at the end of the day they are still just toughness 4, 1 wound, 3+ save unit that brought a knife to a gun fight.

There should be a cap on the amount of points something should cost with only a single wound.

uh oh , more than 19 points is currently a strong minority !

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I'd say 16 pts/model.

Sounds fair to me, but given their lack of delivery systems, that could still be considered mildly over-priced (mainly due to their lack of survivability without said delivery system).

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
The only way I'd pay 3 pts/model for a chainaxe is if it came with Rending.

I agree with that.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Again, the issue for this unit is the delivery, as is the case with about 90% of the Chaos Codex.

Even then, these guys aren't amazing.

The problem with stacking so many special rules is that you eventually hit a point of diminishing returns. These guys could have virtually every single special rule in the book. But at the end of the day they are still just toughness 4, 1 wound, 3+ save unit that brought a knife to a gun fight.

There should be a cap on the amount of points something should cost with only a single wound.

I think you've pretty much nailed it in the sense that it's more about giving them a buff (better stats and a decent delivery system) and making them appropriately costed rather than just making them appropriately costed. And I agree with the Special Rules thing.

 Traditio wrote:
Another comparison comes to mind:

Black Templar Crusader Squads:

14 ppm for an initiate with ATSKNF, adamantium will, crusader and righteous zeal. Same marine stat line, chainsword, pistol and grenades.

As a side note, I don't think this is a fair comparison (at least not for the reasons you've stated) since the Adamantium Will and Crusader Special Rules come from the Black Templars' Chapter Tactics rather than the Crusader Squad itself, and I'm fairly sure the Crusader Squad doesn't have Righteous Zeal Special Rule either. So 14 pts/model for the Crusader Squad is actually fair.

kambien wrote:
uh oh , more than 19 points is currently a strong minority !

Strong Minority here to make a change! haha

kambien wrote:
uh oh , more than 19 points is currently a strong minority !

It doesn't count, those are the trolls!

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

kambien wrote:
uh oh , more than 19 points is currently a strong minority !

It doesn't count, those are the trolls!

Obviously every single person who disagreed with Traditio's idea for their points value is a troll, and their opinion should be ignored.

 Traditio wrote:
You can dispute this point if you want, but then we go into an off-topic discussion about what power armored assault marines are worth in general.

I'm assuming, from the get go, that khorne berserkers are essentially assault marines without jump packs, plus special rules.

In point of fact, they are blood angels assault marines, minus jump packs, plus mark of khorne.

I don't get it.

The thread is "Appropriate Cost for Khorne Berserkers?"
Khorne Berzerkers are power armored assault marines on foot.
But we can't have a discussion about what power armored assault marines on foot are worth?

The answer is that all power armored assault marines on foot are overpriced, regardless of codex. Pricing them correctly relative to each other is just going to price them all wrong because they're all priced incorrectly in comparison to everything else.

It's widely agreed that the actual space marines in the C:CSM codex are over-costed and/or underpowered. Pointing to another power armored model in the codex doesn't really say anything about what an appropriate points cost is for khorne berserkers.

We have to compare them to similar models in more current, actual 7th edition codices.

Yet it's also widely agreed that Blood Angels in general, and Assault Marines on foot in general, are over-costed and/or underpowered. Pointing to another inappropriately costed power armored model in another codex doesn't really say anything about what an appropriate points cost is for khorne berzerkers.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

kambien wrote:
uh oh , more than 19 points is currently a strong minority !

It doesn't count, those are the trolls!

No, it definitely counts. It shows us that a strong minority of the people who have voted in this poll are poll trolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IllumiNini wrote:As a side note, I don't think this is a fair comparison (at least not for the reasons you've stated) since the Adamantium Will and Crusader Special Rules come from the Black Templars' Chapter Tactics rather than the Crusader Squad itself, and I'm fairly sure the Crusader Squad doesn't have Righteous Zeal Special Rule either. So 14 pts/model for the Crusader Squad is actually fair.

Can you take a crusader squad without chapter tactics? I'm pretty sure that says "Chapter Tactics (Black Templars) (pg 190)" on p. 137 of the current codex.

And crusader squads most definitely have righteous zeal. See p. 190 of the codex.

I'm assuming that getting furious charge is the BA version of chapter tactics.

So, yeah. Completely fair comparison.

Traditio wrote:Can you take a crusader squad without chapter tactics? I'm pretty sure that says "Chapter Tactics (Black Templars) (pg 190)" on p. 137 of the current codex.

True - they can't be taken without Black Templars Chapter Tactics, but those two Special Rules come from the Chapter Tactics and are not part of the unit. Therefore, those two Special Rules have no bearing on the comparison between the Crusader Squad and another unit.

Traditio wrote:And crusader squads most definitely have righteous zeal. See p. 190 of the codex.

Nope - not there. Check again, buddy. I'm willing to bet you have an older edition if it says anything about Black Templars having Righteous Zeal as part of their Chapter Tactics.

Traditio wrote:So, yeah. Completely fair comparison.

Given that two of the Special Rules are as a result of Chapter Tactics instead of being part of the unit, and the third is not mentioned on the unit's page or in the Black Templars Chapter Tactics, none of those three rules bear any relevance on the comparison. Therefore, it is an unfair comparison.

IllumiNini wrote:True - they can't be taken without Black Templars Chapter Tactics, but those two Special Rules come from the Chapter Tactics and are not part of the unit. Therefore, those two Special Rules have no bearing on the comparison between the Crusader Squad and another unit.

P. 137 of the codex, under special rules:

ATSKNF; Chapter Tactics (black templars).

If you then look over to p. 190, you'll find out what special rules those chapter tactics confer.

Therefore, since chapter tactics are just a shortened way of saying "they get all of this stuff,"

We may read that as saying, under special rules:

ATSKNF
Adamantium Will
Holy Crusaders
The Lost librarius
Righteous Zeal

I don't really understand your objection. It would be like claiming that we can't factor in chapter tactics when comparing chaos space marines to vanilla tactical marines.

Of course we can.

Nope - not there. Check again, buddy. I'm willing to bet you have an older edition if it says anything about Black Templars having Righteous Zeal as part of their Chapter Tactics.

Are you looking in the 7th edition codex with the ultramarine assault marine sergeant? Guy with the red helmet?

Look at p. 190. Bottom left corner of the page, man. They get righteous zeal.

Given that two of the Special Rules are as a result of Chapter Tactics instead of being part of the unit

They're special rules that the unit gets, and these special rulers are factored in to the 14 ppm cost. It says "chapter tactics (black templars)" in the special rules section of the codex entry. Those special rules are part of the unit.

I don't really understand your objection.

 Traditio wrote:

Nope - not there. Check again, buddy. I'm willing to bet you have an older edition if it says anything about Black Templars having Righteous Zeal as part of their Chapter Tactics.

Are you looking in the 7th edition codex with the ultramarine assault marine sergeant? Guy with the red helmet?

Look at p. 190. Bottom left corner of the page, man. They get righteous zeal.

Sorry, I glazed over that title because I though you were talking about a different Special Rule and not that particular Chapter Tactic. My bad.

 Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:True - they can't be taken without Black Templars Chapter Tactics, but those two Special Rules come from the Chapter Tactics and are not part of the unit. Therefore, those two Special Rules have no bearing on the comparison between the Crusader Squad and another unit.

P. 137 of the codex, under special rules:

ATSKNF; Chapter Tactics (black templars).

If you then look over to p. 137, you'll find out what special rules those chapter tactics confers.

Therefore, since chapter tactics are just a shortened way of saying "they get all of this stuff,"

We may read that as saying, under special rules:

ATSKNF
Adamantium Will
Holy Crusaders
The Lost librarius
Righteous Zeal

I don't really understand your objection. It would be like claiming that we can't factor in chapter tactics when comparing chaos space marines to vanilla tactical marines.

Of course we can.

 Traditio wrote:

Given that two of the Special Rules are as a result of Chapter Tactics instead of being part of the unit

They're special rules that the unit gets, and these special rulers are factored in to the 14 ppm cost. It says "chapter tactics (black templars)" in the special rules section of the codex entry. Those special rules are part of the unit.

I don't really understand your objection.

My objection is that a comparison based on Chapter Tactics isn't really valid to what we're looking at because there are a number of different Chapter Tactics that do a number of different things. So if the Chapter Tactics (and/or whatever the equivalent is in the Chaos codex) is what is causing the imbalance or the basis for inappropriate costing, then the whole premise of the thread that the Khrone Berserkers are inappropriately costed is the wrong thing for you to be trying to balance (meaning you should be balancing the Chapter Tactics and Special Rules instead).

If the Chapter Tactics (and their Chaos equivalent) are not the cause of the imbalance or are the basis of inappropriate costing, then there is no reason for them to be considered at all.

IllumiNini wrote:My objection is that a comparison based on Chapter Tactics isn't really valid to what we're looking at because there are a number of different Chapter Tactics that do a number of different things. So if the Chapter Tactics (and/or whatever the equivalent is in the Chaos codex) is what is causing the imbalance or the basis for inappropriate costing, then the whole premise of the thread that the Khrone Berserkers are inappropriately costed is the wrong thing for you to be trying to balance (meaning you should be balancing the Chapter Tactics and Special Rules instead).

If the Chapter Tactics (and their Chaos equivalent) are not the cause of the imbalance or are the basis of inappropriate costing, then there is no reason for them to be considered at all.

I now understand your objection.

I am making the assumption, ex hypothesi, that all chapter tactics should be assumed to be roughly points equivalent in value.

Are they? Probably not. We're talking about GW.

For the sake of comparison, however, it must be assumed.

Really, I only bring in the crusader squad because they don't have combat squads.

Luckily some of us have our own codices to play with. Here's our local club's KB:
Fixing Khorne Berserkers
Khorne Berserkers…150pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Berserker Champion 5 5 5 4 2 5 3 10 2+
Khorne Berserker 5 4 5 4 1 4 2 9 3+
Unit Composition: 1 Berserker Champion, 4 Khorne Berserkers
Unit Type: Infantry. Infantry (Character) (Berserker Champion Only)
Wargear: Power Armour (Khorne Berserkers Only), Artificer Armour (Berserker Champion Only), Chainaxe (Khorne Berserkers Only), Bolt Pistol (Khorne Berserkers Only), Aura of Dark Glory, Mark of Khorne, Plasma Pistol (Berserker Champion Only).
Special Rules: Champion of Chaos (Berserker Champion Only), Veterans of the Long War, Rampage, Fury of Khorne, Bane of Mages, Zealot.
Options: Each Khorne Berserker can swap his Bolt Pistol for a Plasma Pistol…12pts
May take a Chaos Rhino as a Dedicated Transport…35pts
May take an Icon of Wrath…5pts
May take up to 15 additional Khorne Berserkers…20pts/model
Berserker Champion may swap his Chainaxe for a Power Weapon…10pts
Or a Lightning Claw…15pts
Per five models, up to one Khorne Berserker may swap his Chainaxe for a Skullreaper…20pts

Power Armour: This conveys a 3+ Armour Save
Artificer Armour: This conveys a 2+ Armour Save
Chainaxe: Range-. SUser. AP4. Melee, Rending.
Bolt Pistol: Range: 12”. S4. AP5. Pistol.
Aura of Dark Glory: A model with an Aura of Dark Glory has a 5+ Invulnerable save and causes Fear.
Mark of Khorne: This counts as a Mark of Chaos. In addition, a model with a Mark of Khorne gains the Rage and Counter Attack special rules. Also, a model with this special rule can re-roll any amount of dice when determining charge ranges.
Plasma Pistol: Range: 12”. S7. AP2. Pistol, Gets Hot!
Champion of Chaos: A model with this special rule must always issue and accept challenges. In addition, if it kills a model in a challenge, it rolls on the Chaos Boon Table.
Veterans of the Long War: A model with this special rule has +1 Leadership and Hatred: Space Marines (see note).
Fury of Khorne: A model with this special rule has the Furious Charge special rule. In addition, a model with this special rule gets +D3 Attacks every time it kills an enemy model in close combat. Finally, a model with this special rule has a charge range of 2D6+D3”.
Bane of Mages: A model with this special rule always passes a Deny the Witch roll on a 3+. In addition, when a model with this special rule successfully nullifies a Psychic Power via Deny the Witch, the Psyker attempting to manifest the power suffers a S3, AP1 hit with the Ignores Cover special rule. Finally, a unit containing at least one model with this special rule cannot be selected as the target of a Blessing.
Icon of Wrath: This counts as an Icon of Chaos. In addition, it grants the Furious Charge and Hammer of Wrath special rules to the bearer and his unit.
Skullreaper: Range:-. S+2. AP2. Melee, Fleshbane, Instant Death.