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Let us assume that the new Chaos Space Marines codex came out tomorrow, and GW gave it a fair price. What would that point per model price be, compared to other, similar units?

So, let's compare Khorne Berserkers to the following:

Blood Angels Assault Marines

and

Ultramarines Assault Marines

The blood angels assault marine, pretending its jump pack doesn't exist, is 14 ppm (17 ppm - 3 ppm for the jump pack). It has ATSKNF, furious charge and combat squads. It has a marines stat line, as well as grenades, a pistol and chainsword.

The Ultramarine Assault marines get ATSKNF, combat squads and ultramarines chapter tactics (basically, for 3 turns, they can reroll stuff). They sport a marines stat line, grenades, a pistol and a chainsword. At the cost of 14 ppm.

Khorne Berserkers get the same marine stat line, grenades, a pistol and an axe (which basically is the same as a chainsword). Instead of ATSKNF, they get fearless. They lack combat squads. Like blood angels, they get furious charge. In addition to this, they also get the Mark of Khorne (which the codex prices at 2 ppm).

Assuming combat squads to be absolutely valueless, and assuming fearless and ATSKNF to be virtually identical in points cost, I'm only counting 16 ppm here.

What do you think that Khorne Berserkers should cost?

My vote is 14-16 ppm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another comparison comes to mind:

Black Templar Crusader Squads:

14 ppm for an initiate with ATSKNF, adamantium will, crusader and righteous zeal. Same marine stat line, chainsword, pistol and grenades.

Khorne Berserkers have WS5. I'd say 15-16 but include the chainaxe (AP4) right away.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Khorne Berserkers have WS5.

Fair point.

I'd say 15-16 but include the chainaxe (AP4) right away.

How about we replace the chainaxe with the Icon of Wrath, and call it 15 points even, with a mandatory berserker champion upgrade for sarge?

What makes you think that Ultramarines/Blood Angels assault squads are priced appropriately?

When has ANYONE EVER fielded non-jump pack Assault Marines? It's hard enough to get people to field Jump Pack assault marines.

Berzerkers suffer from:
- Pretty expensive already for a Marine profile
- No delivery mechanism
- No AP/Anti Vehicle on attacks.
So right off the bat, they're not a particularly great combat unit. They'll take on an equal number of tactical marines or fire warriors just fine, but throw in some 2+ saves or mutli-wound units or a MC and they're going to get bogged down.


Khorne marked Raptors are also 19ppm.
Berzerkers get:
+ 1 WS.
+ Furious Charge.
+ Fearless
- Jump Packs
- Fear

Raptors aren't a great unit by any means... but the inclusion of a delivery mechanism makes them useable, because they'll take far less shooting before they make it in to combat. Berzerkers are lucky to make it in to combat at all.


What about Chaos Bikers? Again, not a brilliant unit, but the comparison is:
+ 3PPM cheaper
+ Furious charge
+ 1 WS
+ Fearless
- Bikes (12" move, 1T, Hammer of Wrath, Jink, Turboboost, not slowed by)

How about if we go cheaper? Flesh Hounds are quite appropriately priced. Compare Berzerkers to hounds:
+ Rage
+ Power Armor
+ Grenades
+ Upgrade options
- Beast (12" move, ignore terrain)
- 1W
- 5+ Inv
- Deep Strike
- Scout

Hounds are just as durable vs most weaponry and significantly more survivable vs AP1/2/3 weaponry, so lets say the armour cancels out with wounds/invulnerable. Yet people clamor to take as many hounds as possible, whereas you get laughed at for taking berzerkers.

Its the movement speed that counts. Being able to get your combat unit in to combat is probably the most important quality it could have.


I'd consider Berzerkers if they cost the same as Bloodletters at 10ppm. They're obviously better than Cultists at 6ppm. But above 10ppm, I'd be thinking, "1 Flesh Hound in combat is worth 5 living berzerkers in no-man's land."

I think a better question is: Can foot-slogging AP- combat units ever be worth their points?

Trasvi wrote:
What makes you think that Ultramarines/Blood Angels assault squads are priced appropriately?

I'm assuming it ex hypothesi.

When has ANYONE EVER fielded non-jump pack Assault Marines?

I field two squads of non-jump pack assault marines in my gladius strike force battle-company. I stick them in free rhinos with meltabomb sergeants and 2 flamers each. I put my captain and chaplain in said squads (one each).

Khorne marked Raptors are also 19ppm.

They also don't have ATSKNF, combat squads or chapter tactics. They're over-costed, man.

Imho, the appropriate way to determine the cost of berserkers is to compare them to similar units in actual 7th edition codices. Compare them to vanilla marines.

Well, now we are running fast into the usual territory of "let's just rewrite the whole codex"
With WS5 and AP4 Berserkers are quite good against most non-Elite close-combat stuff.
Oh, and by the way: We should finally make those damn plasma pistols 10points or even less... I don't get why GW doesn't see this since at least 3 editions. It's not that bad for most units, since they have better special weapons, but Berserkers are the only units who can take nothing but plasma pistols.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, now we are running fast into the usual terrain of "let's just rewrite the whole codex"

We're really not.

I'm just talking about points costs. In point of fact, most of the actual space marines portion of CSM needs to have cost decreases.

This has nothing to do with actual rules-rewrites. I'm saying keep khorne berserkers just like they are: just decrease their points cost by 4 ppm.

I was referring to trasvi
I agree with you. They need point costs where you can use lots of them, making delivery options not that decisive.
Despite what the internet says, my CSM armies are mostly made up of power armoured marines. It seems however, that this is only viable with nurgle.

Ok. What troll(s) voted for the "more than 19 ppm" option?

Traditio wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
What makes you think that Ultramarines/Blood Angels assault squads are priced appropriately?

I'm assuming it ex hypothesi.

In which case you're going to get a rubbish result.
Sure we can price Berzerkers appropriately relative to Assault Squads... but they'll all be priced inappropriately compared to the rest of the game. Doing that kind of thing is how Berzerkers got their cost in the first place. You start with the assumption that Chaos Marines are appropriately costed, then you add a point for each extra ability improvement, you wind up at 19ppm. But because you've taken the incorrect reference point, now you've just got two bad units. So unless you want to repeat this process for every single unit in the game... you should cost them appropriately to the game, not some arbitrary reference point.

When has ANYONE EVER fielded non-jump pack Assault Marines?

I field two squads of non-jump pack assault marines in my gladius strike force battle-company. I stick them in free rhinos with meltabomb sergeants and 2 flamers each. I put my captain and chaplain in said squads (one each).

Ok, so:
1. You've indicated multiple times that your army isn't really motivated by taking efficient options.
2. You're now comparing a unit that you think is already 3-5pts overpriced to a unit that gets 35+pts of free upgrades.
3. You're presumably using those squads just to fulfill your detachment requirements and keeping them as cheap as possible - ie, you'd prefer not to take them but you're given no choice.

Khorne marked Raptors are also 19ppm.

They also don't have ATSKNF, combat squads or chapter tactics. They're over-costed, man.
Imho, the appropriate way to determine the cost of berserkers is to compare them to similar units in actual 7th edition codices. Compare them to vanilla marines.

Same codex, same points cost. They fulfill the same role - anti-infantry combat. Pretty damn similar units.
Yet Raptors perform the role significantly better than Berzekers primarily because they have a delivery method, and they're still not considered good. So yeah, we come to the same conclusion that Berzerkers are worth less than 19ppm, but it's needed to see what an even halfway acceptable unit looks like that accomplishes the same role.

Trasvi wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
What makes you think that Ultramarines/Blood Angels assault squads are priced appropriately?

I'm assuming it ex hypothesi.

In which case you're going to get a rubbish result.
Sure we can price Berzerkers appropriately relative to Assault Squads... but they'll all be priced inappropriately compared to the rest of the game. Doing that kind of thing is how Berzerkers got their cost in the first place. You start with the assumption that Chaos Marines are appropriately costed, then you add a point for each extra ability improvement, you wind up at 19ppm. But because you've taken the incorrect reference point, now you've just got two bad units. So unless you want to repeat this process for every single unit in the game... you should cost them appropriately to the game, not some arbitrary reference point.

When has ANYONE EVER fielded non-jump pack Assault Marines?

I field two squads of non-jump pack assault marines in my gladius strike force battle-company. I stick them in free rhinos with meltabomb sergeants and 2 flamers each. I put my captain and chaplain in said squads (one each).

Ok, so:
1. You've indicated multiple times that your army isn't really motivated by taking efficient options.
2. You're now comparing a unit that you think is already 3-5pts overpriced to a unit that gets 35+pts of free upgrades.
3. You're presumably using those squads just to fulfill your detachment requirements and keeping them as cheap as possible - ie, you'd prefer not to take them but you're given no choice.

Khorne marked Raptors are also 19ppm.

They also don't have ATSKNF, combat squads or chapter tactics. They're over-costed, man.
Imho, the appropriate way to determine the cost of berserkers is to compare them to similar units in actual 7th edition codices. Compare them to vanilla marines.

Same codex, same points cost. They fulfill the same role - anti-infantry combat. Pretty damn similar units.
Yet Raptors perform the role significantly better than Berzekers primarily because they have a delivery method, and they're still not considered good. So yeah, we come to the same conclusion that Berzerkers are worth less than 19ppm, but it's needed to see what an even halfway acceptable unit looks like that accomplishes the same role.

This.

- 16pts/model base, +2pts/model for Chainaxe.
- Reduce cost of Plasma Pistol to +10pts/model (yeah right, GW will never wake up to this!) + add option for Hand flamer for +10pts/model
- Add option for 1 per 5 Marines to take either a Power weapon for +10pts/model or a Chainglaive for +15pts/model - Sx2/ap2, Unwieldy, Armourbane, Two-handed

Change the Mark of Khorne to Furious Charge + Hatred Mark/Daemons of Slaanesh.
Change Icon of Wrath to Rage + re-roll first failed charge attempt.

Oh, and give the Chaos Codex an actual delivery method for its many, many, many foot-based T4/3+ assault infantry units!!

I say:

18 points base

Gain back the +1 base attack over having Rage and Counter Attack

Have Chainaxes as base. Have the option for a Eviscerator equivalent. Plasma Pistols are one per 5 models and cost 5 points (this is the only way ANYONE would take them).

Give them some sort of movement bonus like maybe Run and Charge.

Trasvi wrote:

Its the movement speed that counts. Being able to get your combat unit in to combat is probably the most important quality it could have.

Perhaps a special rule could help that?

"Ravening Madmen" The Khorne berserkers have been utterly consumed by rage and hate that nothing can hold back their anger: Khorne berserkers may assault from a non-assault vehicle, but they must take a dangerous terrain check. They also gain the hatred special rule, they may also run and charge in the same turn.

And give them 2 attacks base and make chainaxes str +1 ap 4 and 2 points a model with an option for each of them to take a fist/claw/power weapon.

Now maybe they're actually scary and my GH won't beat them in combat

A dangerous terrain test seems a pretty poor penalty considering how they're pretty much just a waste of time. Either have a worthwhile downside or don't have one at all. What about disordered charge from non assault vehicle?

8 ppm

As is but have rending Chainaxes standard.

Trasvi wrote:In which case you're going to get a rubbish result.
Sure we can price Berzerkers appropriately relative to Assault Squads... but they'll all be priced inappropriately compared to the rest of the game.

At that point, we're getting into a discussion of an alleged problem that's much wider than the Chaos Space Marines codex.

As it is, GW has made itself pretty clear in the "newer" codices. A power armored marine + chapter tactics = 14 ppm. Boltpistol + chainsword = boltgun + boltpistol.

You can dispute this point if you want, but then we go into an off-topic discussion about what power armored assault marines are worth in general.

That's not what this thread is about. I'm assuming, from the get go, that khorne berserkers are essentially assault marines without jump packs, plus special rules.

In point of fact, they are blood angels assault marines, minus jump packs, plus mark of khorne.

These truths should be patently evident (as, indeed, my poll seems to show; the poll, so far, seems to be favoring sanity (i.e., my opinion)).

Same codex, same points cost.

It's widely agreed that the actual space marines in the C:CSM codex are over-costed and/or underpowered. Pointing to another power armored model in the codex doesn't really say anything about what an appropriate points cost is for khorne berserkers.

We have to compare them to similar models in more current, actual 7th edition codices.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Oh, and give the Chaos Codex an actual delivery method for its many, many, many foot-based T4/3+ assault infantry units!!

This isn't just a C:CSM problem, and it's a problem that's easily fixable. All GW has to do is the following:

1. Get rid of the rule that says you can't assault on the turn after your opponent wrecks your transport.
2. Allow assaults from stationary vehicles.

We aren't in 5th edition anymore. Vehicles are now much more reasonable in terms of durability (it's easier to kill them). 2 wouldn't be game-breaking.

And the fact that you can't assault from a wreck is just flat out unfair. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it.

Bear in mind that there is a formation where they can take a Kharbydis Drop Pod and assault out of it the turn they arrive (pre and post FAQ), while also sporting a single D hit from the Drop Pod.

So you want to make them a tad better, but not overpowered.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Bear in mind that there is a formation where they can take a Kharbydis Drop Pod and assault out of it the turn they arrive (pre and post FAQ), while also sporting a single D hit from the Drop Pod.

So you want to make them a tad better, but not overpowered.

That sounds like an obscure forgeworld thing. Is that an obscure forgeworld thing?

I think another question might be, what do you think chainaxes should get, AP4, Shred, or Rending? (Or some combination of above?)
Also, should berserkers get an extra attack? they are still only base 1.
What about an initiative boost?

rrll wrote:
I think another question might be, what do you think chainaxes should get, AP4, Shred, or Rending? (Or some combination of above?)
Also, should berserkers get an extra attack? they are still only base 1.
What about an initiative boost?

All of this is irrelevant to the OP.

I'm simply asking what Khorne Berserkers should actually cost, given their current stats.

I'm not sure.

CSM + Mark of Khorne = 15 ppm

Depends on how much you think WS 5 is worth, i guess. (Somewhere between 3-5 ppm)

I'd say 18 ppm is fair.

 Traditio wrote:
Ok. What troll(s) voted for the "more than 19 ppm" option?

Why is it anyone who goes for the extreme (Berzerkers costing 20+ points, Wraithknights should be cheaper) are trolls?

 Happyjew wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Ok. What troll(s) voted for the "more than 19 ppm" option?

Why is it anyone who goes for the extreme (Berzerkers costing 20+ points, Wraithknights should be cheaper) are trolls?

You're right. they could just have poor judgement.

rrll wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Ok. What troll(s) voted for the "more than 19 ppm" option?

Why is it anyone who goes for the extreme (Berzerkers costing 20+ points, Wraithknights should be cheaper) are trolls?

You're right. they could just have poor judgement.

Or they have legit reasons behind their pricing.

 Happyjew wrote:

rrll wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Ok. What troll(s) voted for the "more than 19 ppm" option?

Why is it anyone who goes for the extreme (Berzerkers costing 20+ points, Wraithknights should be cheaper) are trolls?

You're right. they could just have poor judgement.

Or they have legit reasons behind their pricing.

They could also totally lack a sense of humor.

Happyjew wrote:Or they have legit reasons behind their pricing.

I find this dubious, especially since such reasons have not been expressed in the body of the thread.

I suspect trolls.

The guys username is happyjew, fer gorks sake.

Traditio wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Or they have legit reasons behind their pricing.

I find this dubious, especially since such reasons have not been expressed in the body of the thread.

I suspect trolls.

You say this sort of thing way too often for it to actually mean anything, not to mention the fact that your reputation seems to invite trolls and/or disagreement with your opinions and posts.

Regardless, I will still entertain you on this: Can you give us an indisputable reason or set of reasons why those people we're referring to in the poll are (without a doubt) trolls and couldn't possibly have legitimate reasons for voting for that option?

rrll wrote:The guys username is happyjew, fer gorks sake.

You are stating his name like it's supposed to discredit him. This does you no credit, adds nothing to the conversation, and doesn't actually discredit what Happyjew said.