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If boyz could take eavy armour for 2pts then they would be an auto-include surely? In which case they should just be 4+ stock for 8ppm. It's a question on how much you value choice I suppose. Firewarriors are 4+ stock but can't really be anything else. If you were planning on sticking your firewarriors on a tidewall thingy against an opponent known for having good AP4 options but not much ignores cover wouldn't you rather save some points and let those firewarriors go naked?

Boyz can be 6+ for 6ppm, 6+ with 5+ fnp for 11ppm in a 10 model mob to 7.7 ppm in a 30 model mob, 4+ for 10ppm, 4+ with 5+ fnp for 15 ppm in a 10 model mob to 11.7ppm on a 30 model mob. That is a lot choice in resilience and it also makes boyz somewhat unpredictable to opponents. Then there is the choice in transports..

Stock abilities should be cheaper because there is less choice. Upgrade choices should be a touch more expensive because with them comes choice and flexibility which has value of its own.

Going back to Flash gitz. Gitfindas are a 5pt upgrade for those characters that can take them. Flashgitz appear to be getting them practically free or maybe a point or two but then they get them stock, it isn't a choice.

 SolarCross wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Except that Eavy armor is a 4pt upgrade and is widely considered to be Far to expensive.

Cybork is fething useless

Mega Weapons besides the KMK are useless. you have a 1/3 chance to hit and a 1/6 chance to kill yourself....not worth taking.

eavy armour is at its most expensive on a boy, it bumps a 6ppm slugga up to a 10ppm ard slugga. Then again...
A fire warrior has a 4+ save at 9pts and his stats are by far away total garbage compared to a slugga boy though of course he does have a much better gun.
A skitarii vangaurd has a 4+ save at 9pts, his stats are a closer analogue to a boy though his basic gun is pretty weak.
A scout marine has a 4+ save at 11pts, his stats are overall generally a bit better than a boy though he does have 1 less attack (actually 2 less attacks when you factor in the slugga choppa combo on the slugga boy).

If the eavy armour upgrade is overpriced it isn't by much probably only by 1pt.

I'd still take it on small truck squads. Big mobs should get a painboy first. A 30 strong mob can get fnp using a painboy for only 1.7 ppm.. 6+ with 5+ fnp is comparable to 4+ . Give a mob both 4+ and 5+ fnp and become practically equivalent to 2+ mini terminators against ap5 or worse, S7 and below. Is 350 pts too much to pay for 30 mini-terminators at Ld12 from mobrule? A space marine would have to pay 350pts just for 10 termies. That's 30 T4 wounds vs 10 T4 wounds.

Cybork is mostly useless on any character that will be in a mob with a painboy, though it is only a tenth the cost of a painboy so it could have some use on a warboss or big mek that won't be in the same unit as a painboy. A Tau commander can get personal 5+ fnp for 15pts, a warboss or bigmek can get personal 6+ fnp for 5pts. Not as good but it is a lot cheaper.

I tend to agree that mega-weapons, like imperial plasma, are generally not worth taking because of gets hot. mega-weapons hit a bit harder than imperial plasma though as they are S8 Ap2 vs S7 Ap2, enough to ID a T4 character whereas S7 will only ID a T3 character. Also the risk of using them can be brought down by armour, fnp and also ammo runts.. You might like to know that space marines pay 15pts for a plasma pistol, while meks pay 10pts for a mega-slugga.

Kaptin Badrukk has gets hot on his Rippa gun but with 3+, 5++ access to ammo runts, a reroll on one armour save or inv save per turn if he is warlord (and potential 5+fnp from a painboy) it is kind of safe for him.

At this point your either defending the Ork codex because you lose to them frequently or because you helped write it lol.

So lets do a comparison of those models you just listed.

A fire warrior has a 4+ save at 9pts and his stats are by far away total garbage compared to a slugga boy though of course he does have a much better gun.

A Fire warrior is also BS 3 with a Gun that is S5 range 30. Has access to a number of amazing buffs such as Ignores cover and +BS. Ohh and lets not forget Supporting fire, having a bunch of S5Ap5 shots to help with overwatch is nice.

A skitarii vangaurd has a 4+ save at 9pts, his stats are a closer analogue to a boy though his basic gun is pretty weak.

His gun is an 18in S3 AP 5 Assault3 weapon that has a special rule that inflicts 2 wounds against ANY model on a roll of 6. In other words this thing can bring down MC and GMC with ease. They also come standard witha 6+ FNP AND relentless, they also have Doctrina Imperatives which make them boss mode in most situations. They can become WS 6 on a turn in which they charge into an Ork unit if they feel like it, or conversely they can be BS 7 (Rerolled failed to hit). So for 9pts those guys are AMAZING, they are comparable to ork Shoota boyz who are 11pts a model who have a S4 AP6 Assault 2 gun with a range of 18 on a BS2 platform. Which is better do you think?

A scout marine has a 4+ save at 11pts, his stats are overall generally a bit better than a boy though he does have 1 less attack (actually 2 less attacks when you factor in the slugga choppa combo on the slugga boy).

A scout is 11pts a model, has better BS, S, LD and Save, benefits from ATSKNF, Chapter tactics, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Outflank, Scout. For 1pt a model they can equip a Sniper rifle, for 2pts a model they can buy a Camo cloak which gives them + to cover saves

So either you are ignorant of the rules of the game or you really want people to think Orks are good, even though by any metric in the game they are garbage.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SolarCross wrote:
If boyz could take eavy armour for 2pts then they would be an auto-include surely? In which case they should just be 4+ stock for 8ppm. It's a question on how much you value choice I suppose. Firewarriors are 4+ stock but can't really be anything else. If you were planning on sticking your firewarriors on a tidewall thingy against an opponent known for having good AP4 options but not much ignores cover wouldn't you rather save some points and let those firewarriors go naked?

Boyz can be 6+ for 6ppm, 6+ with 5+ fnp for 11ppm in a 10 model mob to 7.7 ppm in a 30 model mob, 4+ for 10ppm, 4+ with 5+ fnp for 15 ppm in a 10 model mob to 11.7ppm on a 30 model mob. That is a lot choice in resilience and it also makes boyz somewhat unpredictable to opponents. Then there is the choice in transports..

Stock abilities should be cheaper because there is less choice. Upgrade choices should be a touch more expensive because with them comes choice and flexibility which has value of its own.

Going back to Flash gitz. Gitfindas are a 5pt upgrade for those characters that can take them. Flashgitz appear to be getting them practically free or maybe a point or two but then they get them stock, it isn't a choice.

If Eavy Armor was 2pts a model it would be a lot more likely to be included in lists, yes. but by your own argument that is ok because it gives the ork player more options, stick them with good armor and put them in transports to get into CC with the enemy, or conversely leave them naked but put them in cover to hold objectives.

Eavy armor is over priced by at least 2pts a model, Cybork is useless because a 6+ is useless on a model that is 35+pts,

Why is this relevant when talking about Flash gitz? because it shows you how fethed up the game designers were when they designed the Ork Codex. To much of our codex is over priced, to much of our codex is random, ALL of our random stuff is inherently bad because the randomness either makes it situational at best or makes the benefits from the good rolls not worth taking compared to the downsides.

D6 AP is garbage on a BS2 platform who is relying on some good Anti Meq/TEQ AP to stay alive the next turn because they are equipped with 6+ armor and no way of improving it. Furthermore if they were actually given 4+ armor they still wouldn't be that great because this game is to inundated with AP4 weapons, a number of which ignore cover.

Flash gitz much like the rest of the Ork codex, Suck. They need a price reduction, an increase in resiliency and improved Dakka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore Gitfinda's if played RAW suck as well, because the model isn't allowed to move, so if they are in a vehicle that moved they don't benefit from the +1 BS, if they move in the movement phase to get in range with their puny guns they don't benefit from the Git finda.

The models that need and could use the Git finda DONT HAVE ACCESS TO IT! E.G. Lootas and Mek Gunz. Furthermore the Git Finda shouldn't be a situational bonus for 5Pts it should ALWAYS increase BS by 1, not when the model is stationary.

SemperMortis wrote:

At this point your either defending the Ork codex because you lose to them frequently or because you helped write it lol.

Nope, I guess I am defending them but not for either of those possible reasons. I intend to start an Orks Army so I want to see how they are good as much as I want to see where they are weak. And I am just skeptical when I hear people cry that their faction is underpowered and need buffs or points cost drops or whatever because well it is pretty obvious what is going on there...

SemperMortis wrote:

So lets do a comparison of those models you just listed.
A Fire warrior is also BS 3 with a Gun that is S5 range 30. Has access to a number of amazing buffs such as Ignores cover and +BS. Ohh and lets not forget Supporting fire, having a bunch of S5Ap5 shots to help with overwatch is nice.

and WS 2 T3 Ld 7 A1. I did say he had a great gun. That is all he is though a great gun, 4+ with supporting fire. That is what you are paying 9pts for. The ignores cover and BS buffs aren't included they have to pay extra for marker drones, pathfinders and the like. Tau would be unworkable without ingores cover because they can't do close combat. Every faction that has options for close combat has silent ignores cover on every melee weapon because you can't take cover saves in close combat. So actually orks have ignores cover in spades on every choppa and powerklaw.

SemperMortis wrote:

His gun is an 18in S3 AP 5 Assault3 weapon that has a special rule that inflicts 2 wounds against ANY model on a roll of 6. In other words this thing can bring down MC and GMC with ease. They also come standard witha 6+ FNP AND relentless, they also have Doctrina Imperatives which make them boss mode in most situations. They can become WS 6 on a turn in which they charge into an Ork unit if they feel like it, or conversely they can be BS 7 (Rerolled failed to hit). So for 9pts those guys are AMAZING, they are comparable to ork Shoota boyz who are 11pts a model who have a S4 AP6 Assault 2 gun with a range of 18 on a BS2 platform. Which is better do you think?

In fairness that is pretty good, though 6+ Fnp on a T3 frame isn't all that much over 4+. Do you think they are underpriced?

SemperMortis wrote:

A scout is 11pts a model, has better BS, S, LD and Save, benefits from ATSKNF, Chapter tactics, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Outflank, Scout. For 1pt a model they can equip a Sniper rifle, for 2pts a model they can buy a Camo cloak which gives them + to cover saves

All that is good. Though your ork boy at 6ppm is getting an extra 2 attacks (including slugga & choppa combo), furious charge and a re-roll on charge distance and the option to auto-pass morale and pinning tests. Mobrule can give them Ld 12 effectively. they make nice batteries for weirdboyz too.

SemperMortis wrote:

So either you are ignorant of the rules of the game or you really want people to think Orks are good, even though by any metric in the game they are garbage.

Meh I don't see em as bad. Yes your ork boyz can't shoot straight, but they are really pretty good at close combat which is what they are all about anyway. All factions have their strengths, weaknesses and quirks. Orks do too, the boyz are alright if you know how to use em.

I think that FG need either longer range or better armor.

Also, I think that their weapons should probably not be assault. For one thing......just look at them. For another, I think I would be ok with giving them more / better shots and giving up their ability to assault, which is so bad that it's almost never used.

Making their guns salvo 2/4 36" range would be pretty sweet, imo. Would work well with gitfindas, which they currently can rarely use due to short range.

I like the idea of AP1 + D3, so the AP issue is always ok. And maybe baddruk lets you reroll, or just subtract 1 from the AP roll, which would actually give us a reason to take him (120 points for a 3-shot plasma gun!)

Honestly, though, despite everything I still use FG from time to time. Even if they roll a bad ap value, it's still 30 str 5 shots, which is enough to easily kill terminators by sheer wounds.

I just wish they had 'eavy armor instead of bosspoles. I seriously think that their models were done before the rules were, and that's why they all come with base bosspoles.

By including the +1 attack on the boyz you need to remember that Space Marine scouts can get that +1 as well for no cost at all. In this edition Close combat sucks, the only units actively assaulting and winning are those with death star potential or GIANT models, either MC, GMC or Jump GMC.

Saying a unit effectively has ignores cover because you can't take a cover save in CC is about the least productive comment you could make. If you really are going to start an Ork army I wish you the best of luck, once you play a handful of games against semi-competent players playing the average to high end armies your going to learn that the Ork Codex SUCKS.

If you don't wish to take my opinion go look at any number of polls on this forum where people vote for worst codex, orks are ALWAYS in the top 3. Go take a look at any 7th edition major tournament, Orks are usually bottom of the barrel.

The fact that you haven't played as orks yet and still feel like you know what your talking about in reference to how good a unit is makes me want to invalidate your arguments from the get go. Go borrow an Ork army and let me know how you do against a Scat bike eldar army, or a SM Super Friends, or hell just a regular old Imperial Guard gun line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I think that FG need either longer range or better armor.

Also, I think that their weapons should probably not be assault. For one thing......just look at them. For another, I think I would be ok with giving them more / better shots and giving up their ability to assault, which is so bad that it's almost never used.

Making their guns salvo 2/4 36" range would be pretty sweet, imo. Would work well with gitfindas, which they currently can rarely use due to short range.

I like the idea of AP1 + D3, so the AP issue is always ok. And maybe baddruk lets you reroll, or just subtract 1 from the AP roll, which would actually give us a reason to take him (120 points for a 3-shot plasma gun!)

Honestly, though, despite everything I still use FG from time to time. Even if they roll a bad ap value, it's still 30 str 5 shots, which is enough to easily kill terminators by sheer wounds.

I just wish they had 'eavy armor instead of bosspoles. I seriously think that their models were done before the rules were, and that's why they all come with base bosspoles.

I wish that were true, because then it wouldnt feel as bad I guess, but the fact is that even comparing the old BP rules to the new ones, it would still make zero sense to include a BP on ever model, nor does it make sense, point wise, fluff wise, game wise or just in general, to not give Flash Gitz Eavy armor or at the very, and I mean VERY least the option to take it.

SemperMortis wrote:

By including the +1 attack on the boyz you need to remember that Space Marine scouts can get that +1 as well for no cost at all. In this edition Close combat sucks, the only units actively assaulting and winning are those with death star potential or GIANT models, either MC, GMC or Jump GMC.

Saying a unit effectively has ignores cover because you can't take a cover save in CC is about the least productive comment you could make. If you really are going to start an Ork army I wish you the best of luck, once you play a handful of games against semi-competent players playing the average to high end armies your going to learn that the Ork Codex SUCKS.

If you don't wish to take my opinion go look at any number of polls on this forum where people vote for worst codex, orks are ALWAYS in the top 3. Go take a look at any 7th edition major tournament, Orks are usually bottom of the barrel.

The fact that you haven't played as orks yet and still feel like you know what your talking about in reference to how good a unit is makes me want to invalidate your arguments from the get go. Go borrow an Ork army and let me know how you do against a Scat bike eldar army, or a SM Super Friends, or hell just a regular old Imperial Guard gun line.

So what is your win rate with Orks? And how do you explain this?

 SolarCross wrote:

As to that particular tourney result, statistics can be deceptive, if a thousand people take part and half the armies are SM, a quarter are eldar, a sixth are tau and only a tenth are orks then you will see more SM wins than Orks even if there was no power disparity between the codexes, just by weight of probablities.

Also probably more importantly tourneys sometimes have weird restrictions that fly in the face of how the game is supposed to be played, like for example, only allowing one detachment per army. That is something that would cripple Orks much harder than SMs or Eldar but that isn't how the game is supposed to be played.

There was another tourney I heard about in anther Orks thread on dakka that allowed multiple detachments (just as the actual game is supposed to allow) and Orks did as well as any of the "power" factions in that one.



Adepticon Army Breakdown: Stats, Stats, Stats!

So maybe you were a little hasty in jumping to conclusions about Orks?

The 4+ armor on Boyz is worth 3 points, not 4. Your justification is terrible, SolarCross. Orks suck and your table really proves it based off the fact you've got one tournament out of MANY.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The 4+ armor on Boyz is worth 3 points, not 4. Your justification is terrible, SolarCross. Orks suck and your table really proves it based off the fact you've got one tournament out of MANY.

I'd be happy if 4+ was 3 pts. Better still make it free. SMs get free razorbacks let the boyz have free armour, fair is fair. Except of course we don't make the rules and if we did there would be a bloodbath as we all fight for free wraithknights, free riptides and free this, free that. Meh.. I'd rather see the good in what I got, than cry like a baby that I didn't get a free auto-win. Look at it this way.. If a good player plays Eldar and wins, no one thinks he won, they think his codex won. If he loses, oh the humilation!. Hehe.. I can see enough good gak in the ork codex to game some wins and if I lose everyone thinks it was the gakky codex that lost and not me, if I win.. oh the humiliation for the opponent... hee hee.

One tourney, right, but it was a tourney that actually allowed multiple detachments which DERP is how the game is supposed to be played. The other tourneys I don't know, are they actually playing 40k or some gakked up mess that is supposed to "balance" it by making the SM Gladius auto-win? I wonder... seriously.

You're still using ONE tournament to justify your belief. It hasn't happened multiple times and it could easily be attributed to dumb luck as well.

Look at the date, SolarCross. April 7, 2015. Any reason why you cherry picked that tournament, with that date, knowing GW/s release schedule, to use as your example?

Oy.

Alright if we are going to devolve this to why orcs suck simply.

Marines have chapter tactics and can MSU to qualify for free transports.

Crons get free 5+ reanimate and their base gun van wound glance anything.

Eldar have mobility and massed S6 firepower.

Tau have markerlights to abuse cover and make up for ho hum BS

Now we get to the bottom feeders CSM, Orcs, Tyranids, AM]

They are fluffy includes that may have a few quality choices and a good general can make up for their weaknesses but if you face a pimped out TauEldaSM,Cron you will lose 5 out of 6 games.

The only orc advantage is numbers of cheap effective basic troops theory hammer a full Sm tac squad against the equivalent of orc boys in points and it looks pretty good. Now add in chapter tactics and orcs are on the short end. Now add a free raorback and the orcs lose. And Idon't have to tell you you are not going to be facing maxed out tac squads only.

The one advantage is 180 points for 30 orcs but you are going to lose on the fact that too many bodies brings inefficiency 3hen orcs get bottlenecked or bogged down avoiding or going through terrain. So you end up going hybrid with massed trukk boys or bikers. Now you lose because you gave up outnembering your opponent by enough to get in there.

Let me get back to flash gits and compare them to their biggest rival Lootas, So 15-45 S7 shots with 15 wounds 6+ save and 48" range or 30 S6 shots and 24" range with 20 wounds. Now on basis of that I will call the weapons a wassh double the range but moving gives a 50% drop in effectiventess. So by that I would compare the wounds for the points so if it costs me 210 ponts for 15 lootals it shouldnt cost me more than about 20 points for a flashgit.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Look at the date, SolarCross. April 7, 2015. Any reason why you cherry picked that tournament, with that date, knowing GW/s release schedule, to use as your example?

Oy.

Not sure what you are implying, but if it is the beginning of a conspiracy theory then lol. I don't follow the tourney scene closely, sorry but I am not that interested, I only know about that tourney because, as I already said, someone else posted the link to that article in the Orks tactics thread here on Dakka. There were a few crying about how bad orks were and someone (not me) said "they are fine" and linked to that article.. Sorry nothing more to it than that, Osama Bin Laden didn't put me up to it, nor am I an MI5 agent seconded to GW's Orks marketing department to root out heretics.

So since you are all great experts on tourneys can anyone tell me how many detachments are usually allowed? That article seemed to imply that it was uncommon to allow more than one.