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The biggest problem I see with Flash gitz is that they have 6+ armor and boss poles......why are they paying 4pts per model for a boss pole when they could instead pay for the eavy armor instead? Furthermore, they are using a great gun but have BS2 and that teamed with the lack of durability means your throwing points away because they die to a stiff breeze. If you put them in an OT BW then your spending another 110-135pts for a transport to move them around, and when it inevitably explodes it about 25% of the unit.

So here is my idea for fixing Flash Gitz and making them a lot more fun to play with and a lot more durable.

Flash Git Warbikers 32ppm.
The rules for flash gitz stay the same, you lose the BP on every model as well as the gitfinda and instead they gain a warbike
TL Snazz Gun.

For 2ppm you can purchase a Gitfinda with the updated rules that it works regardless of movement...because seriously that was a stupid rule designed to feth over orks.

Lastly, moving the Flashgitz from Heavy Support (excessively bloated) to the Elite slot where they belong.


Now I know a lot of people are going to start saying that is way to cheap, Nob bikers are 45ppm without anything cool like a snazz gun. Well, realistically Nob Bikers are about 15-20points over priced and have to pay a premium for a Power klaw so realistically they need to drop down to about 25-30ppm and Warbikers need to drop to 15ppm.

In their current state, Flash Gitz are nigh pointless in fielding, though I think giving them bikes would be too drastic a change. Their original purpose seems to be more inline with CQC MEQ killers, so I definitely agree they should be in the elites slot rather than Heavy slot. The huge mobility boost bikes give though compared to the cost of fielding them could be considered a little on the OP side though, especially with the BS boost (you've essentially got a 10 man plasma gun squad on bikes, though the AP is unreliable)

Another "fix" for them my friend employs in our friendly games is giving them Wargear options, using the Meks list, plus Eavy Armor, and a 1 in 5 restriction for the Custom Mega Blastas. It fits their fluff as well! (after all, they are the most extravagant of the Orks with access to some of the best gear supposedly)


We also agreed that rather than having completely Random AP for Snazzguns, that it could be AP 1+D3, for more reliable anti MEQ / TEQ firepower.

Nob bikers are 45ppm without anything cool like a snazz gun. Well, realistically Nob Bikers are about 15-20points over priced and have to pay a premium for a Power klaw so realistically they need to drop down to about 25-30ppm and Warbikers need to drop to 15ppm.

^This^

Since the newer Ork codexes I can't disagree with the cost of Nobs. Even a 10pt reduction MIGHT make them viable again...

Do you know how I know the guy/guys who wrote the Ork codex hated the Ork Faction and were actively scared of it?

Nob Bikers in 5th and 6th were really powerful, not because they themselves were OP but because of wound allocation shenanigans.

When our new codex dropped they gave Nobz the ability to take bikes for 27ppm. A Ork character only has to pay 25points for the bike and hell a SM Character only pays 20, a SM Biker is only 21ppm.

The only reason Warbikers are a good unit in our codex is because they are only 18ppm.

SM Bike 21ppm
Ork Bike 18ppm Pretty close right? not to bad right?

SM Biker has +2 BS, +1 Strength +1 Leadership +2 Initiative, Fearless for all intents and purposes, ohh and they can take amazing weapons to add to their usefulness. All of that for 3ppm more then an Ork biker.

What does the Ork have that the SM Doesnt? +1 attack per model.

SemperMortis wrote:
The biggest problem I see with Flash gitz is that they have 6+ armor and boss poles......why are they paying 4pts per model for a boss pole when they could instead pay for the eavy armor instead? Furthermore, they are using a great gun but have BS2 and that teamed with the lack of durability means your throwing points away because they die to a stiff breeze. If you put them in an OT BW then your spending another 110-135pts for a transport to move them around, and when it inevitably explodes it about 25% of the unit.

So here is my idea for fixing Flash Gitz and making them a lot more fun to play with and a lot more durable.

Flash Git Warbikers 32ppm.
The rules for flash gitz stay the same, you lose the BP on every model as well as the gitfinda and instead they gain a warbike
TL Snazz Gun.

For 2ppm you can purchase a Gitfinda with the updated rules that it works regardless of movement...because seriously that was a stupid rule designed to feth over orks.

Lastly, moving the Flashgitz from Heavy Support (excessively bloated) to the Elite slot where they belong.


Now I know a lot of people are going to start saying that is way to cheap, Nob bikers are 45ppm without anything cool like a snazz gun. Well, realistically Nob Bikers are about 15-20points over priced and have to pay a premium for a Power klaw so realistically they need to drop down to about 25-30ppm and Warbikers need to drop to 15ppm.

I agree that they would be better placed in elites rather than heavy support but not with anything else you say. For starters if a 6+ save nob with slugga and choppa is 18pts and a 6+ save flash git with nob stats is 22pts then the 4 extra points is buying you a pretty killer gun and gitfinda, plainly the bosspole is free. 4pts for a gak hot gun and a somewhat situational BS boost is actually a pretty good deal. A gitfinda alone costs 5pts for a character.

Flash Gitz are kinda okay as they are, an option to upgrade their armour would be nice but not important as they are best kept in an opentopped transport anyway so they don't have to move so much to get in range of something. If you are looking for durability it is probably more cost efficient to buff their ride rather than their personal armour. Battlewagon with killcannon, grot riggers and bigmek with kff is probably the optimal ride for flash gitz. Bonus points for sticking them in with Kaptin Badrukk.

Flash Gitz definitely need some fixing but definitely not by giving them the unprecedented change of putting them on warbikes. It reeks of simply using the biker rules/profile to make them work better IMO and overkill for what is clearly intended to be an Orky (potentially anti-heavy) infantry unit. I do agree with making them an elite unit though.

Make it so they get 'eavy armour base, and change snazzguns to AP D3 rather than D6 and now you have reliability and a distinct role in the Ork army that sorely lacks an infantry plasma equivalent weapon. Also make em Ld8 like they should have been to begin with as should all Nob-equivalent units.

Kaptin Badrukk should give preferred enemy to his unit and a severe price chop on his part. Possibly give all Kaptins (including Badrukk as part of his profile), a "kustom choppa" which is effectively an AP3 choppa to show some of their fancy bling which they can upgrade to a PK for 10 points.

 SolarCross wrote:

I agree that they would be better placed in elites rather than heavy support but not with anything else you say. For starters if a 6+ save nob with slugga and choppa is 18pts and a 6+ save flash git with nob stats is 22pts then the 4 extra points is buying you a pretty killer gun and gitfinda, plainly the bosspole is free. 4pts for a gak hot gun and a somewhat situational BS boost is actually a pretty good deal. A gitfinda alone costs 5pts for a character.

Flash Gitz are kinda okay as they are, an option to upgrade their armour would be nice but not important as they are best kept in an opentopped transport anyway so they don't have to move so much to get in range of something. If you are looking for durability it is probably more cost efficient to buff their ride rather than their personal armour. Battlewagon with killcannon, grot riggers and bigmek with kff is probably the optimal ride for flash gitz. Bonus points for sticking them in with Kaptin Badrukk.

Except that Nobz are notoriously over priced. For starters a Nob in a Boyz squad is only 16pts so why are regular nobz in a nob squad 18? Second, why are nobz 18 points? are they 3 times better then boyz? Because unless I am mistaken the only thing they have that a boy doesn't is +1S, W and attack. So lets do the math on that, 3 boyz vs a nob, (neither charge) 3 boyz have 9 attacks base so 4 (rounding down) hits and S3 vs T4 = 1wound. Nob gets 4 attacks 2 hits and 1 wound = 1 dead boy. Boyz hit back with 3 hits and 1 more wound an the nob is dead, the Boyz lose 1 more boy. So by doing a comparison (Shoddy at best I agree but still probably the best metric to go by) nobz are worth about 12pts NOT 18. So for 22pts your getting a model that is EASILY over priced by 1/3rd (probably closer to 1/2 or at the least 2/5ths) who has a decent S5 gun with 3 shots at 24inches. They have 6+ armor and 2 wounds.... 5 Flash gitz are 110pts, for 110 points you can take 4 Scatbikes and guess which ones is significantly better by any metric.

SemperMortis wrote:

Except that Nobz are notoriously over priced. For starters a Nob in a Boyz squad is only 16pts so why are regular nobz in a nob squad 18? Second, why are nobz 18 points? are they 3 times better then boyz? Because unless I am mistaken the only thing they have that a boy doesn't is +1S, W and attack. So lets do the math on that, 3 boyz vs a nob, (neither charge) 3 boyz have 9 attacks base so 4 (rounding down) hits and S3 vs T4 = 1wound. Nob gets 4 attacks 2 hits and 1 wound = 1 dead boy. Boyz hit back with 3 hits and 1 more wound an the nob is dead, the Boyz lose 1 more boy. So by doing a comparison (Shoddy at best I agree but still probably the best metric to go by) nobz are worth about 12pts NOT 18. So for 22pts your getting a model that is EASILY over priced by 1/3rd (probably closer to 1/2 or at the least 2/5ths) who has a decent S5 gun with 3 shots at 24inches. They have 6+ armor and 2 wounds.... 5 Flash gitz are 110pts, for 110 points you can take 4 Scatbikes and guess which ones is significantly better by any metric.

Shoddy, yes you got that right. Nobz as unit on their own can take 4+ armour for the same price as a boy can. They can take bikes, twin linked shootas, kombi-weapons, pks and big choppas, they can take a Waaagh Banner (the only unit that can)....

It is a tricky business pricing things, you have to be aware of the larger context. Maybe nobz aren't overpriced maybe scat bikes are underpriced. I don't have the Eldar codex yet but I have the current Tau codex. The closest equivalent to a Nobz for the Tau is a Crisis Suit, being 2 wounds. Crisis Suits are 22pts without any guns at all. There are so many factors to take into consideration beyond just stats and such.

 SolarCross wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Except that Nobz are notoriously over priced. For starters a Nob in a Boyz squad is only 16pts so why are regular nobz in a nob squad 18? Second, why are nobz 18 points? are they 3 times better then boyz? Because unless I am mistaken the only thing they have that a boy doesn't is +1S, W and attack. So lets do the math on that, 3 boyz vs a nob, (neither charge) 3 boyz have 9 attacks base so 4 (rounding down) hits and S3 vs T4 = 1wound. Nob gets 4 attacks 2 hits and 1 wound = 1 dead boy. Boyz hit back with 3 hits and 1 more wound an the nob is dead, the Boyz lose 1 more boy. So by doing a comparison (Shoddy at best I agree but still probably the best metric to go by) nobz are worth about 12pts NOT 18. So for 22pts your getting a model that is EASILY over priced by 1/3rd (probably closer to 1/2 or at the least 2/5ths) who has a decent S5 gun with 3 shots at 24inches. They have 6+ armor and 2 wounds.... 5 Flash gitz are 110pts, for 110 points you can take 4 Scatbikes and guess which ones is significantly better by any metric.

Shoddy, yes you got that right. Nobz as unit on their own can take 4+ armour for the same price as a boy can. They can take bikes, twin linked shootas, kombi-weapons, pks and big choppas, they can take a Waaagh Banner (the only unit that can)....

It is a tricky business pricing things, you have to be aware of the larger context. Maybe nobz aren't overpriced maybe scat bikes are underpriced. I don't have the Eldar codex yet but I have the current Tau codex. The closest equivalent to a Nobz for the Tau is a Crisis Suit, being 2 wounds. Crisis Suits are 22pts without any guns at all. There are so many factors to take into consideration beyond just stats and such.

Well here is an easy way to find out if Nobz are over priced and if they are competitive. Take a look at every major tournament since 7th edition started, do any of the ork lists include Nob squads? MA Nobz yes, but not regular nobz. Why? As has been said many times, MA nobz which for most codices are not that great of a choice are an auto include in most ork lists because for 40pts you get a Nob in MA with a Powerklaw and TL Weapon. A Nob with Eavy armor and a PK is 47pts.

Which is better do you think? A Nob or a Crisis Suit? really? If you think it is the nob then there is no hope for you.

SemperMortis wrote:


Well here is an easy way to find out if Nobz are over priced and if they are competitive. Take a look at every major tournament since 7th edition started, do any of the ork lists include Nob squads? MA Nobz yes, but not regular nobz. Why? As has been said many times, MA nobz which for most codices are not that great of a choice are an auto include in most ork lists because for 40pts you get a Nob in MA with a Powerklaw and TL Weapon. A Nob with Eavy armor and a PK is 47pts.

Which is better do you think? A Nob or a Crisis Suit? really? If you think it is the nob then there is no hope for you.

MegaArmour also has Slow and Purposeful. A Nob in Eavy Armour & PK can run, fire overwatch and make sweeping advances which manz can't. Nobz also have a wider choice of wargear, they can take a big choppa instead of pk.

If you knew you were up against an opponent with AP2 and grav on everything, T3 with low arnour save, would you still take MANZ over Nobz with big choppas?

I am not saying nobz are "better" than crisis suits. Neither am I saying hammers are "better" than screwdrivers. What I am saying is that which tool is better depends quite a lot on what you want to use it for.

The problem is Flash Gits were a boys unit with better guns,(Kustom Specials.)
And Lootas had 'unreliable' (Orks kept breaking the 'puny uman stuff.') looted imperial equipment/weapons.

After GW gave Orks lootaz 'kustom weapons', that filled the position in the army Flash Gits used to hold.

Flash Gits had to be something else.

Unfortunately some one thought giving a close combat focused unit (Nobs) better ranged weapons was a good idea.. .

I would have had Flash Gits as a 0-1 Mob of BS 3 WS 3 A 1 boys.
'Dem weird Flash Gits got 'Blasta bonce' from firin' so many gunz.Dey forgot ow to fight like propa Orksies.'

So a rare and elite unit of Ork boys that can actually shoot straight !

 SolarCross wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


Well here is an easy way to find out if Nobz are over priced and if they are competitive. Take a look at every major tournament since 7th edition started, do any of the ork lists include Nob squads? MA Nobz yes, but not regular nobz. Why? As has been said many times, MA nobz which for most codices are not that great of a choice are an auto include in most ork lists because for 40pts you get a Nob in MA with a Powerklaw and TL Weapon. A Nob with Eavy armor and a PK is 47pts.

Which is better do you think? A Nob or a Crisis Suit? really? If you think it is the nob then there is no hope for you.

MegaArmour also has Slow and Purposeful. A Nob in Eavy Armour & PK can run, fire overwatch and make sweeping advances which manz can't. Nobz also have a wider choice of wargear, they can take a big choppa instead of pk.

If you knew you were up against an opponent with AP2 and grav on everything, T3 with low arnour save, would you still take MANZ over Nobz with big choppas?

I am not saying nobz are "better" than crisis suits. Neither am I saying hammers are "better" than screwdrivers. What I am saying is that which tool is better depends quite a lot on what you want to use it for.

Well for starters their isn't an army in the game with bad armor saves that are T3 and can take AP2/Grav. What you are doing there is mixing Space marine weapons with IG and saying Nobz with Big Choppas are superior to Meganobz in this one very specific situation. MA nobz are better at almost everything. Nobz on the other hand are useless in 95% of the cases, and no longer get taken as biker choices because they have to pay an absurd 27points for a bike.

That means that Flash Gitz are in a position of utter unsuitability because they are based on a Nob statline/points cost

SemperMortis wrote:

Well for starters their isn't an army in the game with bad armor saves that are T3 and can take AP2/Grav. What you are doing there is mixing Space marine weapons with IG and saying Nobz with Big Choppas are superior to Meganobz in this one very specific situation. MA nobz are better at almost everything. Nobz on the other hand are useless in 95% of the cases, and no longer get taken as biker choices because they have to pay an absurd 27points for a bike.

That means that Flash Gitz are in a position of utter unsuitability because they are based on a Nob statline/points cost

IG can get AP2 even if grav is off the menu. MANZ are better against marines because the inability to make sweeping advances doesn't matter as much against an army with ATSKNF stock so that makes MANZ cheap massed powerklaws. That doesn't mean Nobz are overpriced it just means they are better against less popular armies.

Flash Gitz are kind of in a funny place as their gun is really good against marines but as a shooty unit they maybe don't benefit so much from having an extra wound as well as +1 S, +1 I. That said that kind of applies to shooty Orks boyz too. Ork boyz are GEQ in terms of point cost but have stats pretty much as good as a marine for close combat whilst having low BS, not an obvious choice for a shooty focused unit. The answer is that shooty nobz, like Flash Gitz, as well as shooty orks are shooters that can also do cc. They are generalists. Use 'em to shoot but in a pinch throw em in cc if it the opportunity arises.

You can't put flash gitz on a warbike without changing the model or kitbashing.

It doesn't fit the fluff or address any of the problems with flash gitz, which is that they are overpriced and undergunned.

I do however agree that flash gitz should be an elite choice, however, with the elite slots already filled to the brim with nobz, meganobs, tankbusta's, burna's and kommandos, there is really no room for them.

Sometimes people over think fixes.
Give them 4+, and the formation they have TL instead of Master-Crafted. Quick and simple.

SemperMortis wrote:
Do you know how I know the guy/guys who wrote the Ork codex hated the Ork Faction and were actively scared of it?

Nob Bikers in 5th and 6th were really powerful, not because they themselves were OP but because of wound allocation shenanigans.

When our new codex dropped they gave Nobz the ability to take bikes for 27ppm. A Ork character only has to pay 25points for the bike and hell a SM Character only pays 20, a SM Biker is only 21ppm.

The only reason Warbikers are a good unit in our codex is because they are only 18ppm.

SM Bike 21ppm
Ork Bike 18ppm Pretty close right? not to bad right?

SM Biker has +2 BS, +1 Strength +1 Leadership +2 Initiative, Fearless for all intents and purposes, ohh and they can take amazing weapons to add to their usefulness. All of that for 3ppm more then an Ork biker.

What does the Ork have that the SM Doesnt? +1 attack per model.

There are a couple of things here that need comment. An Ork warbiker has a bit more over a SM bike than just +1 Attack (which is pretty good thing in itself). They get a +1 to cover when turbo-boosting and Ork bikes have a TL dakka gun which is considerably superior to a SM's TL boltgun. Also it should be noted that a warbike bumps a boyz or nobz armour save up to 4+ from 6+ whereas an SM bike leaves an SM's save unchanged.

 SolarCross wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Do you know how I know the guy/guys who wrote the Ork codex hated the Ork Faction and were actively scared of it?

Nob Bikers in 5th and 6th were really powerful, not because they themselves were OP but because of wound allocation shenanigans.

When our new codex dropped they gave Nobz the ability to take bikes for 27ppm. A Ork character only has to pay 25points for the bike and hell a SM Character only pays 20, a SM Biker is only 21ppm.

The only reason Warbikers are a good unit in our codex is because they are only 18ppm.

SM Bike 21ppm
Ork Bike 18ppm Pretty close right? not to bad right?

SM Biker has +2 BS, +1 Strength +1 Leadership +2 Initiative, Fearless for all intents and purposes, ohh and they can take amazing weapons to add to their usefulness. All of that for 3ppm more then an Ork biker.

What does the Ork have that the SM Doesnt? +1 attack per model.

There are a couple of things here that need comment. An Ork warbiker has a bit more over a SM bike than just +1 Attack (which is pretty good thing in itself). They get a +1 to cover when turbo-boosting and Ork bikes have a TL dakka gun which is considerably superior to a SM's TL boltgun. Also it should be noted that a warbike bumps a boyz or nobz armour save up to 4+ from 6+ whereas an SM bike leaves an SM's save unchanged.

3 Warbikers fire 9 shots, 3 hit, 2 more hit after the TL takes effect. 5 hits out of 9 shots which is good. 5 S5 shots from 3 models is pretty good. But to fire that they can't turboboost and have to be within 18in of an enemy unit.

3 Spacemarines fire 6 TL S4 shots at BS4, 4 hit and then the reroll you have a better chance of getting 6 out of 6 then missing 1 shot, so your getting the same or more hits out of less shots.

Yeah orks get a bump to armor save by taking a bike, that is awesome and all, but that doesn't change the fact that the SM still has a better save to start with. The +1 to CS when turbo boosting is wicked nice, and I use it like crazy to get my bikes into CC, but so many weapon these days have Ignores Cover its ridiculous....especially if you play Tau.

My point still Stands, SM bikers are better almost across the board and yet they cost almost the same as Ork bikers.

SemperMortis wrote:

3 Warbikers fire 9 shots, 3 hit, 2 more hit after the TL takes effect. 5 hits out of 9 shots which is good. 5 S5 shots from 3 models is pretty good. But to fire that they can't turboboost and have to be within 18in of an enemy unit.

3 Spacemarines fire 6 TL S4 shots at BS4, 4 hit and then the reroll you have a better chance of getting 6 out of 6 then missing 1 shot, so your getting the same or more hits out of less shots.

Yeah orks get a bump to armor save by taking a bike, that is awesome and all, but that doesn't change the fact that the SM still has a better save to start with. The +1 to CS when turbo boosting is wicked nice, and I use it like crazy to get my bikes into CC, but so many weapon these days have Ignores Cover its ridiculous....especially if you play Tau.

My point still Stands, SM bikers are better almost across the board and yet they cost almost the same as Ork bikers.

Ork Ballistics might reduce the number of hits from their Dakka gun down to the same as the marines bolter but the dakka gun hits harder, S5 vs S4, also bolters are rapid fire whereas the dakka gun is assault. So the marine has to be closer than 12" to get those 2 shots and can't assault after shooting, while the Ork's Dakka gun gets all three shots up to 18" and can follow up his shooting attack with a charge into close combat. Your point doesn't stand. You are cherry picking everything, willfully ignoring advantages and overemphasising disadvantages in order to make Orks look as bad as possible... I was going to say that you ought to get the marine codex and just proxy you orks as marines since you apparently don't like cheap low armour troops with leadership issues, but I have heard some marine players do for their codex the same gak you are doing for yours. They say "oh a 3+ armour save stock isn't any good, I can't win with all the AP3 and better weapons out there." and "ATSKNF is rubbish and doesn't help me auto-win at all because morale doesn't matter much".. meh haters gonna hate, losers gonna lose.

I use the gitz a lot and they are surprisingly good in Battlewagon focused lists. Blitz Brigade has amazing synergy as the scout move means turn 1 they have BS 3 shooting (assuming you don't move again) from an AV14/12/10 bunker. People tend to underestimate Ork shooting so they generally won't be targeted first and then they start to unload on the enemy it can catch people off guard. They often also forget that they are actually Nobz with guns so they punch much better than Boyz.

To fix Flash Gitz (as well as Nobz and Nob stat line units) they just need their 4+ armor save back and then your looking at a unit that punches hard for a shooting unit while putting out dakka that half the time melts MEQ armor. All Nob class units need leadership 8 as well. Gitz are so close to being great but like the majority of the Ork codex they are plagued by durability and morale issues while the points cost doesn't properly afford them the quantity over quality argument.

 SolarCross wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

3 Warbikers fire 9 shots, 3 hit, 2 more hit after the TL takes effect. 5 hits out of 9 shots which is good. 5 S5 shots from 3 models is pretty good. But to fire that they can't turboboost and have to be within 18in of an enemy unit.

3 Spacemarines fire 6 TL S4 shots at BS4, 4 hit and then the reroll you have a better chance of getting 6 out of 6 then missing 1 shot, so your getting the same or more hits out of less shots.

Yeah orks get a bump to armor save by taking a bike, that is awesome and all, but that doesn't change the fact that the SM still has a better save to start with. The +1 to CS when turbo boosting is wicked nice, and I use it like crazy to get my bikes into CC, but so many weapon these days have Ignores Cover its ridiculous....especially if you play Tau.

My point still Stands, SM bikers are better almost across the board and yet they cost almost the same as Ork bikers.

Ork Ballistics might reduce the number of hits from their Dakka gun down to the same as the marines bolter but the dakka gun hits harder, S5 vs S4, also bolters are rapid fire whereas the dakka gun is assault. So the marine has to be closer than 12" to get those 2 shots and can't assault after shooting, while the Ork's Dakka gun gets all three shots up to 18" and can follow up his shooting attack with a charge into close combat. Your point doesn't stand. You are cherry picking everything, willfully ignoring advantages and overemphasising disadvantages in order to make Orks look as bad as possible... I was going to say that you ought to get the marine codex and just proxy you orks as marines since you apparently don't like cheap low armour troops with leadership issues, but I have heard some marine players do for their codex the same gak you are doing for yours. They say "oh a 3+ armour save stock isn't any good, I can't win with all the AP3 and better weapons out there." and "ATSKNF is rubbish and doesn't help me auto-win at all because morale doesn't matter much".. meh haters gonna hate, losers gonna lose.

And you are proving your ignorant of the rules. Bikers are immune to the restrictions caused by Rapid fire. Furthermore you are in fact cherry picking your data, Ohhh bolters are only 2 shots each at 12 inches, well guess what? my bikers are 0 shots at 19+ inches, while SM can fire up to 24.

Your either defending the Ork codex because you honestly think it is good, which is a rather silly opinion because it flies in the face of everything we know to be a fact in regards to 7th edition. If you don't believe me go take a peak at tournament outcomes. I'll give you a hint, the top Ork player at the LVO was something like 86th place. Or if that isn't the face then your trying to justify your several wins against ork players by making them out to be super competitive armies. Beating Orks with Tau (which I believe is your army, though I am not sure) is excessively easy and usually a very one sided affair.

You still have to be within 12" to double your shots with Rapid Fire weapons even if you are Relentless (like bikes are). Relentless only allows them to charge afterwards.
Probably should have made it clearer in the initial quoted post that you were doing the bikes in Rapid Fire range as not to confuse people who may not immediately realise it.

And yes, SolarCross's previous posts show he doesn't believe Orks are underpowered (or that Space Marines have overpowered builds). This is the same person who said Nobs are good and in rare cases (that in reality don't exist) better than MANZ and that the best way to run boyz are Nob-less 10 strong units with a single Rokkit Launcha.

Orks also suffer less when they're jinking and deciding to shoot.

I still like my Troop Marine Bikers, but don't pretend Ork Bikers don't have several advantages.

SemperMortis wrote:

And you are proving your ignorant of the rules. Bikers are immune to the restrictions caused by Rapid fire. Furthermore you are in fact cherry picking your data, Ohhh bolters are only 2 shots each at 12 inches, well guess what? my bikers are 0 shots at 19+ inches, while SM can fire up to 24.

Your either defending the Ork codex because you honestly think it is good, which is a rather silly opinion because it flies in the face of everything we know to be a fact in regards to 7th edition. If you don't believe me go take a peak at tournament outcomes. I'll give you a hint, the top Ork player at the LVO was something like 86th place. Or if that isn't the face then your trying to justify your several wins against ork players by making them out to be super competitive armies. Beating Orks with Tau (which I believe is your army, though I am not sure) is excessively easy and usually a very one sided affair.

Ok I didn't realise relentless did that for rapid-fire, big whoop.

As to that particular tourney result, statistics can be deceptive, if a thousand people take part and half the armies are SM, a quarter are eldar, a sixth are tau and only a tenth are orks then you will see more SM wins than Orks even if there was no power disparity between the codexes, just by weight of probablities.

Also probably more importantly tourneys sometimes have weird restrictions that fly in the face of how the game is supposed to be played, like for example, only allowing one detachment per army. That is something that would cripple Orks much harder than SMs or Eldar but that isn't how the game is supposed to be played.

There was another tourney I heard about in anther Orks thread on dakka that allowed multiple detachments (just as the actual game is supposed to allow) and Orks did as well as any of the "power" factions in that one.



Adepticon Army Breakdown: Stats, Stats, Stats!

So maybe you were a little hasty in jumping to conclusions about Orks?

1. Make them a nob upgrade option but then prevent taking a claw or uge Choppa.
2. Change the base line to S6 ROF2 AP d6
3. After you declare your target you also ,must declafd if you want More Dakka +D3 to ROF or Shootier -1 on your AP result
or both. With a gets hot roll of a 1 for one option or 1 or a two for both, Sio if you want S6 ROF 3-5 with an AP of 1-5 you can have it at the cost of a gets hot on a 1 or 2.

Add an effect to Badrukk that his flashgits must always select both but he gives all flashgits other than himself a -1 on their gets hot rolls.

I would seriously consider 26 point gits with eavy armor at that point.

DAaddict wrote:
1. Make them a nob upgrade option but then prevent taking a claw or uge Choppa.
2. Change the base line to S6 ROF2 AP d6
3. After you declare your target you also ,must declafd if you want More Dakka +D3 to ROF or Shootier -1 on your AP result
or both. With a gets hot roll of a 1 for one option or 1 or a two for both, Sio if you want S6 ROF 3-5 with an AP of 1-5 you can have it at the cost of a gets hot on a 1 or 2.

Add an effect to Badrukk that his flashgits must always select both but he gives all flashgits other than himself a -1 on their gets hot rolls.

I would seriously consider 26 point gits with eavy armor at that point.

2 profiles is actually a really good idea for Flash Gitz, and I think it could give them some much needed flexibility in what they can do.

I reckon it could work quite nicely with the below profiles (must be dclared/rolled for just after declaring a target, but before shooting is determined:

Snazzgun (Moar Dakka!)

Rng - 24"
Str - 5
AP - 3+D3
type - Assault 2 + D3

Snazzgun (Moar Powwa!)

Rng - 24"
Str - 5
AP - D3
type - Assault 2

I'd also give them the following Wargear options:

Eavy armor - 4pts per model

Cybork Body - 5pts per model

for every 5 models in the Unit, 1 Flash Git may replace his Snazzgun with a Custom Mega Blasta - 5pts

Flash Git Kaptin may replace his Snazzgun for:

A Custom Mega Blasta - 5pts

A Custom Mega Slugga and Killsaw - 30pts

 Kommisar Kyn wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
1. Make them a nob upgrade option but then prevent taking a claw or uge Choppa.
2. Change the base line to S6 ROF2 AP d6
3. After you declare your target you also ,must declafd if you want More Dakka +D3 to ROF or Shootier -1 on your AP result
or both. With a gets hot roll of a 1 for one option or 1 or a two for both, Sio if you want S6 ROF 3-5 with an AP of 1-5 you can have it at the cost of a gets hot on a 1 or 2.

Add an effect to Badrukk that his flashgits must always select both but he gives all flashgits other than himself a -1 on their gets hot rolls.

I would seriously consider 26 point gits with eavy armor at that point.

2 profiles is actually a really good idea for Flash Gitz, and I think it could give them some much needed flexibility in what they can do.

I reckon it could work quite nicely with the below profiles (must be dclared/rolled for just after declaring a target, but before shooting is determined:

Snazzgun (Moar Dakka!)

Rng - 24"
Str - 5
AP - 3+D3
type - Assault 2 + D3

Snazzgun (Moar Powwa!)

Rng - 24"
Str - 5
AP - D3
type - Assault 2

I'd also give them the following Wargear options:

Eavy armor - 5 pts per model

Cybork Body - 5pts per model

for every 5 models in the Unit, 1 Flash Git may replace his Snazzgun with a Custom Mega Blasta - 5pts

Flash Git Kaptin may replace his Snazzgun for:

A Custom Mega Blasta - 5pts

A Custom Mega Slugga and Killsaw - 30pts

Except that Eavy armor is a 4pt upgrade and is widely considered to be Far to expensive.

Cybork is fething useless

Mega Weapons besides the KMK are useless. you have a 1/3 chance to hit and a 1/6 chance to kill yourself....not worth taking.

SemperMortis wrote:

Except that Eavy armor is a 4pt upgrade and is widely considered to be Far to expensive.

Cybork is fething useless

Mega Weapons besides the KMK are useless. you have a 1/3 chance to hit and a 1/6 chance to kill yourself....not worth taking.

eavy armour is at its most expensive on a boy, it bumps a 6ppm slugga up to a 10ppm ard slugga. Then again...
A fire warrior has a 4+ save at 9pts and his stats are by far away total garbage compared to a slugga boy though of course he does have a much better gun.
A skitarii vangaurd has a 4+ save at 9pts, his stats are a closer analogue to a boy though his basic gun is pretty weak.
A scout marine has a 4+ save at 11pts, his stats are overall generally a bit better than a boy though he does have 1 less attack (actually 2 less attacks when you factor in the slugga choppa combo on the slugga boy).

If the eavy armour upgrade is overpriced it isn't by much probably only by 1pt.

I'd still take it on small truck squads. Big mobs should get a painboy first. A 30 strong mob can get fnp using a painboy for only 1.7 ppm.. 6+ with 5+ fnp is comparable to 4+ . Give a mob both 4+ and 5+ fnp and become practically equivalent to 2+ mini terminators against ap5 or worse, S7 and below. Is 350 pts too much to pay for 30 mini-terminators at Ld12 from mobrule? A space marine would have to pay 350pts just for 10 termies. That's 30 T4 wounds vs 10 T4 wounds.

Cybork is mostly useless on any character that will be in a mob with a painboy, though it is only a tenth the cost of a painboy so it could have some use on a warboss or big mek that won't be in the same unit as a painboy. A Tau commander can get personal 5+ fnp for 15pts, a warboss or bigmek can get personal 6+ fnp for 5pts. Not as good but it is a lot cheaper.

I tend to agree that mega-weapons, like imperial plasma, are generally not worth taking because of gets hot. mega-weapons hit a bit harder than imperial plasma though as they are S8 Ap2 vs S7 Ap2, enough to ID a T4 character whereas S7 will only ID a T3 character. Also the risk of using them can be brought down by armour, fnp and also ammo runts.. You might like to know that space marines pay 15pts for a plasma pistol, while meks pay 10pts for a mega-slugga.

Kaptin Badrukk has gets hot on his Rippa gun but with 3+, 5++ access to ammo runts, a reroll on one armour save or inv save per turn if he is warlord (and potential 5+fnp from a painboy) it is kind of safe for him.

Hard to judge how much the armor itself is worth when you consider what else the other units get IN ADDITION for their points while still somehow costing less than or only slightly more than the Boy. Not only do the non-Ork units have better weapon options available to them on the whole compared to the Ork Boy, they also have some rather GOOD special rules and abilities in tandem. Which, again, makes the 4 point cost rediculous when the Boy has nothing really going for him outside of T4 and extra attacks (Which he may or may not ever get to use anyway).

Eavy armor shouldn't be more than 2 points at most. Ork Boyz are 10 points w/ armor still doesn't make them at all on par with the other units you are comparing them with.

I mean, the Vanguard (just off the top of my head) gets access to special benefits through the 'orders' the army uses AND Feel No Pain, even if it is only a 6+. Not sure how they get their baseline profile and several good perks along with pretty darn good weapon options to make them even better at their job for the points.

Considering their point cost, they should be 4++ stock.

Give a mob both 4+ and 5+ fnp and become practically equivalent to 2+ mini terminators against ap5 or worse, S7 and below.

Sorry couldn't let that one slip. I think you miss understand the stats of stacking 'saves'. For clarity, for example, a 4+ then a 4+ FnP would not equal auto pass... i.e. you don't just add the probabilities the way you have.

if you think about the example I just gave, most people intuitively knows its a probability of 0.75 to pass. this is because you have 4 possible out comes if you roll two dice for a 4+ you can get; pass + pass, pass + fail, fail+ pass, fail + fail. Only 1 out of 4 would you fail and hence 0.75 probability of passing.

Now onto your example. 0.5 and 0.33... chances of passing each. add theses and you get your meganob equivalent saves. But you don't. You add 0.5 to 0.5*0.33. Because, for the second save (FnP) to be relevant you must first fail your first armour save. Chances to fail amour, 0.5, multiplied by chances to pass FnP, 0.33. i.e. your probability with 4+ armour and 5+ FnP = 0.5 + (0.5*0.33..) = 0.66666 or the equivalent of 3+ save but also with the stipulations you mentioned of the AP5 and up, Str7 and less. I believe the marines are 420 points for a blob of 30 (if you could buy them), vs. the 350 for un upgraded boyz. You can discuss the relevant merits of each from that perspective, each has its benefits.

Those were the stats, but in reality: I've run those blobs before on many occasions and they are fun and can catch opponents off guard, occasionally, (even more fun with grotsnik as your painboy). More often than not, everything and its dog has AP4+ and it only really makes its points back once in CC. Problem is getting it to CC is the problem. If you kit out 1 unit like this it paints a big target on them for AP4 weaponry. so to be effective you have to cover all your boyz with it (I often run 3*30 boyz) this gets crazy expensive and you end up with no points for anything else. Fun, thematic and I've played it like this, but really not very good..

Personally its easier to pay 10 points for da finkin kap and fish for night fighting and/or ruins saves warlord traits and abuse cover for the first turn (both can be very funny as you claim your 2+ cover with 5+ FnP), ignore's cover is out there and nasty but not everything is ignores cover and if anyone is running one of 'those lists' then there is really nothing that can help you, except maybe for a dustpan and brush to sweep your models away each turn. Anyone who plays heaps of boyz knows that an extra 2 boyz for every 3 you buy is usually much better than a 4+ save. To put it in context of the army I like to play 3 x30 boyz each with pain boy. I could take 2 more blobs of 30 boyz instead of adding 'ard armour onto them... another 62 ablative wounds that are a threat to most units in the game is better than 4+ save imo.


Just realised I'm way off topic:

I think flashgitz need a 4+ save in with their cost + an extra 6 inch range, or once per game they can be relentless of something. I love the idea of different profile, but for me, the range always is what makes them difficult to use on the right target.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Kommisar Kyn wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
1. Make them a nob upgrade option but then prevent taking a claw or uge Choppa.
2. Change the base line to S6 ROF2 AP d6
3. After you declare your target you also ,must declafd if you want More Dakka +D3 to ROF or Shootier -1 on your AP result
or both. With a gets hot roll of a 1 for one option or 1 or a two for both, Sio if you want S6 ROF 3-5 with an AP of 1-5 you can have it at the cost of a gets hot on a 1 or 2.

Add an effect to Badrukk that his flashgits must always select both but he gives all flashgits other than himself a -1 on their gets hot rolls.

I would seriously consider 26 point gits with eavy armor at that point.

2 profiles is actually a really good idea for Flash Gitz, and I think it could give them some much needed flexibility in what they can do.

I reckon it could work quite nicely with the below profiles (must be dclared/rolled for just after declaring a target, but before shooting is determined:

Snazzgun (Moar Dakka!)

Rng - 24"
Str - 5
AP - 3+D3
type - Assault 2 + D3

Snazzgun (Moar Powwa!)

Rng - 24"
Str - 5
AP - D3
type - Assault 2

I'd also give them the following Wargear options:

Eavy armor - 5 pts per model

Cybork Body - 5pts per model

for every 5 models in the Unit, 1 Flash Git may replace his Snazzgun with a Custom Mega Blasta - 5pts

Flash Git Kaptin may replace his Snazzgun for:

A Custom Mega Blasta - 5pts

A Custom Mega Slugga and Killsaw - 30pts

Except that Eavy armor is a 4pt upgrade and is widely considered to be Far to expensive.

Cybork is fething useless

Mega Weapons besides the KMK are useless. you have a 1/3 chance to hit and a 1/6 chance to kill yourself....not worth taking.

Woops, typo! Fixed it now. I wouldn't say KMB's are useless though, especially on units with Gitfindas, as for only 5 points you're getting a beefier plasma gun for units that can typically take a bit more punishment than the typical grunts, with options for re rolls. Especially considering the disturbing lack of AP1/2 in the Ork arsenal short of Power Klaws.

I do agree with the 'Eavy Armour cost being too much though, ideally it should be either a 3 or even 2 point upgrade per model. I'm actually in the process of play testing a custom Ork codex with this as one of the changes, and so far 3pts seems the most balanced option. It also contains changes to Cybork, making them a 10pt upgrade, but with regular FNP on characters, and as a 5pt 6+ FNP for squads.

Once I've got a little more done on it I can put the roster file in the forums if anyone would be interested, quite a few subtle changes to the Ork codex that beef them up a little, but not too drastically. (it's a battlescribe catalogue, with all restriction rules configured)