How would you internally balance your army?

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**StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds**

Martel732 wrote:
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
change grav to wound on 4+, and do a hullpoint to vehicles on 6's and becomes AP 2 against GC/MC's

Grav that wounds on a 4+ will never kill a Riptide with a reasonable amount of shots.

Depends on what source of grav you have, and if it got its nova charge off

**pm713**

Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Do you mean MC's or just a few of them? You always seem to mean a select few. Unless we're going to argue Tyranids MC's, Wraithlords, Daemon Princes and things like that are OP

They're OP for gak armies like BA and Orks. Orks have no real counters, but BA at least have regular grav. Regular grav fails against Riptides and the like, but keeps us in the game against Tyranid MCs and Wraithlords. Otherwise, they just stomp all over our expensive but helpless units. Even a lowly Carnifex or WL fights are full capacity until dead and bounce autocannons all day long. Wish my predators could say that.

The Wraithlords full capacity is either stupidly priced or cc only.....

**Martel732**

pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Do you mean MC's or just a few of them? You always seem to mean a select few. Unless we're going to argue Tyranids MC's, Wraithlords, Daemon Princes and things like that are OP

They're OP for gak armies like BA and Orks. Orks have no real counters, but BA at least have regular grav. Regular grav fails against Riptides and the like, but keeps us in the game against Tyranid MCs and Wraithlords. Otherwise, they just stomp all over our expensive but helpless units. Even a lowly Carnifex or WL fights are full capacity until dead and bounce autocannons all day long. Wish my predators could say that.

The Wraithlords full capacity is either stupidly priced or cc only.....

Still better than anything in Codex: BA. Think about that for second. We have no magic MCs at all.

As soon as you equip BA to try to fight MCs in combat, you give up too many points in the shooting phase.

**Frozocrone**

Main problem with MC is that it could be a T9 W10 and yet even if you bring it down to one wound there is no notable damage and no reward for doing so (in the case of Gargantuans).

I don't play AoS, but I applaud the mechanic that when monsters suffer wounds their performance on the field drops.

**Martel732**

Frozocrone wrote:
Main problem with MC is that it could be a T9 W10 and yet even if you bring it down to one wound there is no notable damage and no reward for doing so (in the case of Gargantuans).

I don't play AoS, but I applaud the mechanic that when monsters suffer wounds their performance on the field drops.

That is also my main problem. Also, they still have toe in cover mechanics. The GMCs don't at least, but they are super broken for other reasons.

**NG77**

Shouldn't anything with more than one wound get worse when wounded then? Why should a Chapter Master carry on fighting at full capacity when down to one wound but not an MC?

I'd rather just do away with damage mechanics for vehicles.

**Martel732**

NG77 wrote:
Shouldn't anything with more than one wound get worse when wounded then? Why should a Chapter Master carry on fighting at full capacity when down to one wound but not an MC?

I'd rather just do away with damage mechanics for vehicles.

Probably.

Vehicles are still junk even without damage mechanics, though.

**Experiment 626**

Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Do you mean MC's or just a few of them? You always seem to mean a select few. Unless we're going to argue Tyranids MC's, Wraithlords, Daemon Princes and things like that are OP

They're OP for gak armies like BA and Orks. Orks have no real counters, but BA at least have regular grav. Regular grav fails against Riptides and the like, but keeps us in the game against Tyranid MCs and Wraithlords. Otherwise, they just stomp all over our expensive but helpless units. Even a lowly Carnifex or WL fights are full capacity until dead and bounce autocannons all day long. Wish my predators could say that.

The Wraithlords full capacity is either stupidly priced or cc only.....

Still better than anything in Codex: BA. Think about that for second. We have no magic MCs at all.

As soon as you equip BA to try to fight MCs in combat, you give up too many points in the shooting phase.

I'm pretty sure even your apparently useless BA's could readily deal with an MC that's 155pts base for a paltry T5/W4/5++...

Welcome to the raging dumpster fire that's the Daemon Prince.

**Martel732**

Try it some time. It's still got smash, so BA are terrified.

**Colehkxix**

I haven't played in a long while for... reasons. Ahem. But:

Imperial Guard:

Kell is pretty damn expensive. I love the model but I'd never use him for 50 points let alone 75.

Commissar is also overpriced. Why get one when you have a priest? They need a cost reduction. As an extension, the Lord Commissar also needs a points reduction.

Reducel infantry leadership. My guys never run seem to run away, making my commissar very disappointed that he never gets to shoot anyone. I want to make these guys useful!

Infantry need to be reduced in cost, maybe 4 points per model. Make the sergeant an upgrade instead of a standard thing. Heavy Weapons Squad should be 30. Special Weapons 24 or 25. There's no real reason to take them over Veterans who are much better value for money the vast majority of the time.

Veterans should be merged with Stormtroopers. I know it'll never happen, but it should. Make veterans an elite choice, 5-10 guys with a ton of different upgrades, upgrade to bolters, hotshot lasguns, various special weapons, carapace, add abilities like deep strike/outflanking. Make them BS3 like the other humans. This way guard has a nice use for the elite slots, and troop choices are used on guardsmen.

Sergeant Harker is overpriced, reduce his cost to maybe 40? add a wound, No real reason to take him over other heavy weapon options.

Tempestus Scions... see Veterans. No real reason to take these over veterans as veterans are just better for the cost.

5 point reduction to sentinels, need a reason to take them over a tank or a vendetta and I'm not sure what else to do.

Rough Riders... give them carapace, an extra attack.. maybe a point reduction.. I've never seen anyone field these and it makes me sad.

Leman Russ Vanquisher, the anti tank one, should probably have something to help it with tank/monster hunting. If only there was some kind of special rule for that.. make it S10 AP1 too. Maybe then I'd take it over another Leman Russ varient.

Hydra: Give it the a rule that stops jinking. Then I'll consider taking one instead of something else.

**Pouncey**

I'd give Celestians the ability to take power weapons.

Repentia would get FNP, Fleet and Fearless. Fearless because losing a fight and possibly getting killed is not a concern for them, it's their ultimate goal. They will charge troops with flamethrowers while wearing no armor and only rags for clothing. FNP because they're too fragile to survive long enough to get into melee. Fleet because they're almost completely unencumbered by armor and equipment and are in a huge rush to meet the enemy in melee.

Other than that I wouldn't change anything.

**Grief**

If I was to internally balance my codex I would write in some unfair stuff like a 36" str6 ap- heavy 4 gun on every jet bike instead of the 1 per 3 models. I would also write in some gimmicky formation that allows 12 Lords of Wars. I would write in some lord of war option that has plenty of str d in melee and ranged and make it a t8 gargantuan creature with jump packs. Also toss in a 4++ invul save.

I would then politely ask Matt Ward about how to write some absurd fluff to fill in the 99% of the codex and sell that for $200 per copy.

Oh wait, the Eldar already has all this stuff I mentioned?

**HuskyWarhammer**

Grief wrote:
If I was to internally balance my codex I would write in some unfair stuff like a 36" str6 ap- heavy 4 gun on every jet bike instead of the 1 per 3 models. I would also write in some gimmicky formation that allows 12 Lords of Wars. I would write in some lord of war option that has plenty of str d in melee and ranged and make it a t8 gargantuan creature with jump packs. Also toss in a 4++ invul save.

I would then politely ask Matt Ward about how to write some absurd fluff to fill in the 99% of the codex and sell that for $200 per copy.

Oh wait, the Eldar already has all this stuff I mentioned?

Actually, a wraithknight with shield only has a 5++ invulnerable save.

**Hawky**

I would double tne number of shots for almost every twin-linked weapon that is modelled as two weapons. T-L heavy bolter wouldn't be Heavy 3 T-L, but Heavy 6 instead.
I would keep the T-L option to reroll singlw-shot weapons, such as battlecannons and Lascannons.

Colehkxix wrote:
Reducel infantry leadership. My guys never run seem to run away, making my commissar very disappointed that he never gets to shoot anyone. I want to make these guys useful!

Thats very selfish of you. Ld 7 is adequate enough. They are trained soldiers, not buch of dumb orks.

**Crazyterran**

Most of the garbage SM units are garbage because they are vehicles. It would require a large points drop or a change to vehicles to make them worth taking. Especially Land raiders, in the loyalist variety or chaos variety.

Terminators: 30 points base, 35 for a THSS variety. 2 heavy weapons per five. Stormbolter armed Terminators gain Specialist Ammo (that can be fired out of Stormbolters, TDA armed models only) for free. They may reroll scatter dice for deep striking. sergeant may upgrade his power sword.

Scout bikes could use a 3+ save, using the same logic that Eldar jet bikes use. Maybe a couple points off, as well.

Tactical Marines are alright in the Gladius... Outside of it not so much. Don't know how to change them without buffing the Gladius.

.

**casvalremdeikun**

BA: Most of these are in addition to giving stuff the same points costs and stats as the C:SM when appropriate. I went ahead and mentioned some of the glaring stuff too.
Remove the cost increase for Overcharged Engines for units that have them base. Keep the 10 pt upgrade for units that don't already have them. Our Tactical Squads should not have to pay more for their transports.
Give Mephiston some sort of an Invulnerable save. 5+ would be better than nothing.
Give the Furioso Force Halberd Specialist Weapon.
Give the Sanguinor Independent Character.
Make Gabriel Seth an HQ instead of a Lord of War. He is similar in capability and price to other HQ Chapter Masters that are in C:SM. Maybe make him 2+ instead of 3+, he is a Chapter Master!
Sanguinary Priest: Give him a Bolt Pistol base. Seriously, it isn't game breaking.
Brother Corbulo: Give him Artificer Armor.
Scouts: Increase BS/WS to 4. Losing armor and access to weapons and transports makes 55 pts way too expensive for what you get. Heck, at 55 pts and not being able to take a transport, they are overpriced even with the BS/WS increase.
Command Squad: Make the Sanguinary Novitiate and the Company Champion optional upgrades.
Lemartes: Make him an HQ. He is not worth an Elite slot all on his own.
Sanguinary Guard: Reduce the price by five points per model. They are way too expensive relative to Death Company.
Vanguard Veterans: Reduce the price of weapon upgrades by 5-10 pts depending on the weapon (Hand Flamer should be 5 pts, other pistols should be 10 pts, melee weapons should all be 10 pts cheaper). VVs are way too expensive relative to Death Company. For only five points more, DC get relentless, more attacks, and Feel No Pain. Not worth the price of admission.
Stormraven: Give it back the ability to chose to Skyfire.
Baal Predator gets Scout back.

**Matt.Kingsley**

Hawky wrote:
Colehkxix wrote:
Reducel infantry leadership. My guys never run seem to run away, making my commissar very disappointed that he never gets to shoot anyone. I want to make these guys useful!

Thats very selfish of you. Ld 7 is adequate enough. They are trained soldiers, not buch of dumb orks.

The fact that Orks are Ld 7 makes this comment even better!

**Hawky**

I tought that they are Ld 6... Sorry for that.

**MarsNZ**

Colehkxix wrote:

Commissar is also overpriced. Why get one when you have a priest?

I disagree. In fact I think the priest and commissar being the same points but providing different advantages/disadvantages is an excellent and rare example of good internal balance. Personally I rate commissars higher than priests in terms of usefulness, others prefer priests.

**luky7dayz**

remove stormsurge. i love suits but just no. I think tau is pretty well balanced internally, maybe a small buff to vespid, and a small nerf to tau overwatch rules.

change Space marine scouts back to ws/bs3! I absolutely hate their new change, it makes no sense fluff wise, and gives tactical marines much less presence.

**Griddlelol**

Heavy weapons squads should be dirt cheap. They can die in droves for all I care, but I'd like to start the game with 20 auto cannons that maybe last a turn or two.

Leman Russes need lumbering behemoth back. The base LR and the Demolisher are basically useless now, and have become artillery.

3 guns should be able to shoot out of a chimera.

Special weapons squads need to be either cheaper, or have access to some special rules. They're in a weird situation where they're competing with vets for the same role, but are less accurate and have no cannon fodder wounds.

The elites section needs a complete rework. It's just full of gak. Dump ogryns. Slight points decrease to ratlings, make storm troopers good - they should be able to "storm" objectives and take them. That's their job, but right now vets are better. Add something new and interesting. Hell, add a bunch of new and interesting things. The elite section is just trash.

Not really internal balance, but chimerae need to be more survivable.

**Draco**

Traditio wrote:
Space Marines:

1. Nerf grav
2. Increase the cost of bikes
3. Decrease the cost of flakk missiles to 5 ppm.
4. Increase the cost of drop pods.
5. Require complete 10 man squads to field free razorbacks (though leave the requirement for rhinos at 5 man squads).

Are gravs a problem? Melta guns are solid option still on bikes, plasma not (unless it is plasma talon). Maybe you could get rid of all salvo weapons, they could be heavy or some other type.
2-4 are good changes.
Terminators should get some changes too, maybe 4++ to all or point cost drop?
Vehicles, get rid of clansing hits and no additional hp lost from gravs.

**sfshilo**

Unyielding Hunger wrote:
I will put forth my support for the Hive Mind. Brace yourselves: Massive wall of text incoming.

Eternal Warrior for all creatures in synapse range.
Army wide assault grenades.
Melee weapons stack.
Scything talons go back to reroll rules.
Replace adaptive biology with flat out fnp and it will not die.
Turn one assaults.

Hive Tyrants can buy better armor saves.
Swarmlord becomes Low and gets a better save, psyker level 4, and the ability to take retinue with him inside a pod.
Tyrant Guard need a slight point deduction, and the ability to take ranged weaponry. If you want to classify them as a guard organism, give them the ability to take cannons. They can't hit crap, but heavy cannons suddenly make tyrant and guard into an interesting gunstar.
Old One Eye. Just go ahead and drop the price by 20, and give him fnp and it will not die. Give him a new warlord trait.
Tervigons need to drop down again. You broke Tervigon spam, now tyrants are the issue. Give them a flat 180pt cost, remove the burn out clause to spawn since you made summoning a thing, and move Tervigons to a flat out troop choice. Then, people can't complain about spam being an issue, because they still need a HQ.
Tyranid Primes need to drop back down to where their price was before. There was no reason for the drastic price increase. Give them wing options. If that doesn't work, give the option to take them under a second profile called the parasite of mortrex so that we can have some kind of flying, cheap, hq. I want my fething ripper factory back
If the above fails, Parasite of Mortrex needs to come back as a HQ.
Deathleaper needs the option to take Lictors as troops. A minor price drop to 120 would also not be bad.

Tyranid Warriors are fine. Maybe a 5 pt price reduction or brotherhood of psykers would be nice.
Genestealers need shroud/stealth.
Termagants are fine.
Hormagaunts might need to drop to 4ppm. They should be beasts.
Ripper swarms should drop to 10 ppm.

Hive guard need their bs back up.
Lictors need a point decrease. Also the ability to take them in squads of 3 to 5.
Zoanthropes are fine. Just fix their shooting issues.
Venomthropes need a slight point reduction.
Haruspexes need an extra attack base, as well as a moderate point drop of 20 or so.
Pyrovores need a point their points dropped to 25-35, as well as torrent flamers.

Tyranid shrikes are ok. Maybe a 5 point reduction or brotherhood of psykers.
Raveners need a 5 point reduction.
Sky-Slasher swarms need to drop to about 14ppm.
Gargoyles need to pop down to 5ppm. Also a way to field them as troops.
Harpies are ok. They just need more weapon options.
Hive Cones need more anti aircraft options.
Spore Mines need to be able to be taken in larger units, and the ability again to be deployed first before enemy deployment.

Carnifexes are ok. Need an armor save boosting option
Biovores need a slight price drop.
Trygons need a major price drop. 160ppm is fine and the subterranean assault needs to change to a 9 inch area as well as more than just infantry being able to use them.
Trygon Primes need a price drop as well as psyker level one.
Mawlocs are perfect.
Exocrines might need a slight drop by 10 points.
Tyrannofexes need a drop to 160 or perhaps a bs increase.
Toxicrenes need to drop in price.
Malceptors need to be dropped in price to 180, get a 2+ invul save, as well as psyker level 3.

Beyond this, I'm out of ideas for now.

Jesus... just looked at the preview, and added spaces to liven things up. Hope it helps.

He said balance, I think you missed the point.

**Unyielding Hunger**

That is balance in my mind. Roughly half the book is over costed compared to its true effectiveness. The other half is worthless in most circumstances since we are an assault army stuck in a heavy shooting edition. At least with these things, we have half a chance of becoming a middle of the road army.

I hate being the army that most people have to go easy on or just give extra points to just to "balance" the match. It's a slap in the face, to be honest. People don't even do that for CSM.

**Lukash_**

Khorne Daemonkin:

Skulltaker can take a Juggernaut (why is this not an option?)

Daemon Princes can buy Axe of Khorne for a reduced price (and ideally the Etherblades and Blade of Blood) so their sole option for more offensive output isn't relics.

Land Raiders can be taken as War Engines in the Bloodcurion. Once again, why is this not an option? The terrible Bloodcrusher/Terminator formation is the only way of getting them in the Decurion. Side note, another way of getting Termies in the decurion would be nice.

There's more but so many issues lie with the base CSM codex that they don't really bear repeating.

**Vector Strike**

luky7dayz wrote:
remove stormsurge. i love suits but just no. I think tau is pretty well balanced internally, maybe a small buff to vespid, and a small nerf to tau overwatch rules.

change Space marine scouts back to ws/bs3! I absolutely hate their new change, it makes no sense fluff wise, and gives tactical marines much less presence.

But then where would we find Strength D weapons, Ta'unar aside?