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The question is simple. Most posts are about external codex balance issues, but we all have internal balance issues that should most likely be adressed first.
So b4 you start thinking that your csm unit x is not as powerful then eldar unit y, 1st consider how csm unit x should be changed to better balance with csm unit z.
Whether it's rules or just basic point modifications, give your opinion.
Also this is for any army with internal balance issues. Let's not dis eldar, sm, tau, etc because they're top tier.
I think we can only ever start to improve the factions externaly if we 1st fix the internal issues.

While I agree that internal balance needs to happen, why is it that you say it is more important than external balance?

 curran12 wrote:
While I agree that internal balance needs to happen, why is it that you say it is more important than external balance?

Ill give an example. I play orks, and I love the look of most ork units, but I will never bring stormboyz (one of my favorite ) to a competitive gamr, especially when I can just bring warbikers (one of my least favorite ).
If you just focus on external balance then you end up with eldar only bringing their jet bikes to every battle aND the tauthor wI'll only ever bring their mc aND gmc. Internal balance encourages more varied list building.

I'll do something for Dark Eldar.
Scourges, Reavers, Warriors, Venoms, Ravagers, and Covens units are all decently balanced in their own right, so the rest needs some internal balance.
Give archons ghost plate armor, and access to an AP 2 melee weapon, likely just changing the huskblades AP. This would make the Archon pretty good. Maybe give the ability to take a Reaver jetbike again. Oooooh, Caltrops on a jetbike Archon with huskblade and shadowfield sounds absolutely evil.....
Give the Succubus access to a Soul Stone. Thats all that needs to change with her honestly, as she's pretty good already.
Let Haemy's turn Wracks into troops again.
Give Incubi access to either grenades, or something that gives them the same effects as grenades. If they get that then they're suddenly a useful option.
Give Mandrakes daemon, then they can have a save against melee. Not much, but I think it would make them viable in certain situations.
Let Trueborn take heat lances and haywire blasters if they want.
Let Wyches have a 5+ dodge invul from shooting, and make the Wych weapons something useful. There are a bunch of ways you could do that. Maybe have the Wych cult weapons rolled into one and give them rending?
Make Beastmaster Packs be able to get up to 20 models, and give the razorwing flock an extra attack.
Let all DEldar vehicles have the option to buy flickerfields.
I honestly don't know how to help Hellions. Their role just seems to be taken by Reavers already.
Give the Talos rampage.

All that, and I think that the Dark Eldar will have some use for just about everything in the codex.

Already made something for this for the Orks.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/688819.page#8614228

For the Grey Knights codex:
- Give PAGK Relentless
- Give Purifiers Shrouded
- Brother-Captain costs 110pts base
- Give Grandmasters 4W, maybe WS7 as well. edit: Alternatively, give them back their old Grand Strategy rule. Please.
- Dreadnoughts get 4A
- Let Brotherhood Champions take Personal Teleporters, let them take artifacts and weapons besides the sword. Make them 85pts base. Maybe give them Sanctuary as well (if so, bump them up to 95pts)
- No clue how to tone down the Dreadknight, but would need to be done to make any list other than HQ+2x cheapest squads+3x Dreadknights, repeat until points filled a real choice. Take away Sanctuary? Purge Soul might be a good replacement. Or maybe it doesn't need to be replaced.

I think that even with these changes, we would still see Librarian 2x Strike Squads 3x Dreadknights, which means maybe giving PAGK Relentless is too much. I'd say give them True Grit back (treat Storm Bolter as pistol in CC, so get +1A) but I don't think that would make them equally as attractive asTerminators.
Relentless+Shrouded makes Purifiers look a little more attractive for moving up the field a bit with their two big guns. Too bad they can't go to ground - I'm half tempted to say take Fearless off of them and give the Grand Master a 12" bubble, to enable go-to-ground shenanigans.
Brother-Captain costing as much as a Libby makes them, in my mind, about equal. Do you want a beatstick/caster, or do you want a caster? Might be able to skip the Grand-Master buffs as that may make them TOO good?
Dreadnoughts can't be made viable, but 4A at least gives some incentive to use them in softer lists.
Brotherhood champions with PTs lets you deep strike them with terminators, join a squad of Interceptors, or just zip up the board solo. Let them take Soul Glaive, the Bone Shard of Solor, or even Fury of Deimos to give them a little bit of flair. Overall makes them a lot more flexible. Dropping the points costs stops you from ripping the page out of the codex (150pts for a sergeant killer? what?). Giving it Sanctuary almost makes you want to take one as your second HQ instead of just taking a second Libby... Tempted to bump him up to 3A as well, but might be too much. Maybe give this little guy Fearless so he can zip around getting squads that have Gone to Ground to stand up and fight again?

For the CSM codex...Scribble in the words Chaos in front of Space Marine Codex...

Rough Riders get 1 point Carapace armor option and 2 wounds.

Ogryn just need a points drop at this point.

Ratlings are fine, the sniper rules need to be rethought so they actually do something.

Let hydras ignore the jink save of skimmers and flyers again.

Give Leman Russes the old Lumbering Baheamoth rule.

Wyrdvanes need more types of powers to use, not just one. I'd like to see one that has the blast like now, one that is a single heavy shot, one that's like a psychic shriek, maybe a shrouding one, there's a lot of places for this to go.

Let orders be given automatically. No leadership check required.

Lord commissars get initiative 4 or maybe even initiative 5.

Let guardsmen trade their las guns for close combat weapons and a pistol. And on the opposite side let sergeants take
Las guns.

Let command squads have more options for more men with different roles.

Those are just a few that spring to mind.

Chaos Daemons:
- Add 3 levels of power/unique attributes to each of the other three Greater Daemons.

- Drop Daemon Princes down to 85pts base. (c'mon man - he's a paltry T5/W4/5++ for feth's sake! him ending up well over 300pts is an absolute insult...)

- Tzeentch Heralds begin as Lv1 Psykers, may only upgrade to Lv2 max. Nurgle/Slaanesh may only upgrade to Lv1.
Basically, we spam too many WC's far too easily and for too cheap. Heralds should be on par with your 'average' psyker, which is Lv1 - 2 across the board. Only the 'big boys' should get access to Lv3.

- Give Horrors a basic shooting attack back so they're finally something more than just cheap WC generators.
Also, limit them to only ever rolling their powers from the Lore of Tzeentch. (and say good riddance to annoying Clown Car lists!)

- Change Tzeentch's Boomstick to the 20pts default options, while the Warpblade becomes the default 10pts option.
Right now, a LoC is a better fighter overall than a freaking Bloodthirster! Far too easy to reach that magical S8/ap2 at initiative with him, alongside guaranteed access to Prescience, and up to a roughly 60%'ish+ shot at land Precog.

- Remove the restriction that limits psykers from rolling only up to 50% of their powers on their own God's spell lore.

- Add option for Khornate Heralds to buy Carapace/'Chaos' armour, in order to give them a semi-decent save. (they are the Blood God's chosen legions after all!)
Likewise, add option for Bloodletters & Bloodcrushers to purchase a 4+ save as well.

- Add new unit entry for Changebringers. (basically, Flamers who ride Discs of Tzeentch)

- Add a new 'Khornate Daemon Engine' that's around Forge/Maulerfiend size.

- Add the Plague Tower of Nurgle & Silver Tower of Tzeentch as proper SHV/LoW options.

- Re-tool the CotW formations to no longer center around the damn Sacred Numbers!
Seriously, formations like the Burning Skyhost of Tzeentch are laughably unplayable. Not only did they manage to nerf Screamers, but you need 9! ****ing units of Screamers/Burning Chariots to field the damn thing!
Use the sacred numbers within the formation rules for sure, such as the 'everyone gets the Heralds locus' ability in a range equal to said sacred number... Or else something like 'all models from a Murderhorde formation get +1S for models within 8" of the Herald', etc, etc...
But right now the bulk of our formations are too unwieldy because you need 6-9 units from a choice of at best, 3 options.


Daemons mostly done.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:I'll do something for Dark Eldar.
Scourges, Reavers, Warriors, Venoms, Ravagers, and Covens units are all decently balanced in their own right, so the rest needs some internal balance.
Give archons ghost plate armor, and access to an AP 2 melee weapon, likely just changing the huskblades AP. This would make the Archon pretty good. Maybe give the ability to take a Reaver jetbike again. Oooooh, Caltrops on a jetbike Archon with huskblade and shadowfield sounds absolutely evil.....
Give the Succubus access to a Soul Stone. Thats all that needs to change with her honestly, as she's pretty good already.
Let Haemy's turn Wracks into troops again.
Give Incubi access to either grenades, or something that gives them the same effects as grenades. If they get that then they're suddenly a useful option.
Give Mandrakes daemon, then they can have a save against melee. Not much, but I think it would make them viable in certain situations.
Let Trueborn take heat lances and haywire blasters if they want.
Let Wyches have a 5+ dodge invul from shooting, and make the Wych weapons something useful. There are a bunch of ways you could do that. Maybe have the Wych cult weapons rolled into one and give them rending?
Make Beastmaster Packs be able to get up to 20 models, and give the razorwing flock an extra attack.
Let all DEldar vehicles have the option to buy flickerfields.
I honestly don't know how to help Hellions. Their role just seems to be taken by Reavers already.
Give the Talos rampage.

All that, and I think that the Dark Eldar will have some use for just about everything in the codex.

I like all of these changes, and perhaps make ravagers have (as mentioned in another thread) 6 transport capacity? Lose open topped, 6 firing points would be fair I say. No open topped because I don't want it to take the venom's job of "fast 5 man transport" so you can put your incubi in venoms, and your blasterborn in ravagers. Also, the archon should be able to get some implanted scourge wings, as well as the jetbike you mentioned. Same for succubus.

For hellions, perhaps a point drop? You're right their job is already sort of taken by reavers. Maybe extra attacks or assault weapons instead, or give their hoverboards a splinter weapon?

Rihgu wrote:For the Grey Knights codex:
- Give PAGK Relentless
- Give Purifiers Shrouded
- Brother-Captain costs 110pts base
- Give Grandmasters 4W, maybe WS7 as well. edit: Alternatively, give them back their old Grand Strategy rule. Please.
- Dreadnoughts get 4A
- Let Brotherhood Champions take Personal Teleporters, let them take artifacts and weapons besides the sword. Make them 85pts base. Maybe give them Sanctuary as well (if so, bump them up to 95pts)
- No clue how to tone down the Dreadknight, but would need to be done to make any list other than HQ+2x cheapest squads+3x Dreadknights, repeat until points filled a real choice. Take away Sanctuary? Purge Soul might be a good replacement. Or maybe it doesn't need to be replaced.

I think that even with these changes, we would still see Librarian 2x Strike Squads 3x Dreadknights, which means maybe giving PAGK Relentless is too much. I'd say give them True Grit back (treat Storm Bolter as pistol in CC, so get +1A) but I don't think that would make them equally as attractive asTerminators.
Relentless+Shrouded makes Purifiers look a little more attractive for moving up the field a bit with their two big guns. Too bad they can't go to ground - I'm half tempted to say take Fearless off of them and give the Grand Master a 12" bubble, to enable go-to-ground shenanigans.
Brother-Captain costing as much as a Libby makes them, in my mind, about equal. Do you want a beatstick/caster, or do you want a caster? Might be able to skip the Grand-Master buffs as that may make them TOO good?
Dreadnoughts can't be made viable, but 4A at least gives some incentive to use them in softer lists.
Brotherhood champions with PTs lets you deep strike them with terminators, join a squad of Interceptors, or just zip up the board solo. Let them take Soul Glaive, the Bone Shard of Solor, or even Fury of Deimos to give them a little bit of flair. Overall makes them a lot more flexible. Dropping the points costs stops you from ripping the page out of the codex (150pts for a sergeant killer? what?). Giving it Sanctuary almost makes you want to take one as your second HQ instead of just taking a second Libby... Tempted to bump him up to 3A as well, but might be too much. Maybe give this little guy Fearless so he can zip around getting squads that have Gone to Ground to stand up and fight again?

All these make sense, except for the purifiers. Why would they get relentless? Why would they get shrouding? Fluff or in-game justification would be nice.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:I'll do something for Dark Eldar.
Scourges, Reavers, Warriors, Venoms, Ravagers, and Covens units are all decently balanced in their own right, so the rest needs some internal balance.
Give archons ghost plate armor, and access to an AP 2 melee weapon, likely just changing the huskblades AP. This would make the Archon pretty good. Maybe give the ability to take a Reaver jetbike again. Oooooh, Caltrops on a jetbike Archon with huskblade and shadowfield sounds absolutely evil.....
Give the Succubus access to a Soul Stone. Thats all that needs to change with her honestly, as she's pretty good already.
Let Haemy's turn Wracks into troops again.
Give Incubi access to either grenades, or something that gives them the same effects as grenades. If they get that then they're suddenly a useful option.
Give Mandrakes daemon, then they can have a save against melee. Not much, but I think it would make them viable in certain situations.
Let Trueborn take heat lances and haywire blasters if they want.
Let Wyches have a 5+ dodge invul from shooting, and make the Wych weapons something useful. There are a bunch of ways you could do that. Maybe have the Wych cult weapons rolled into one and give them rending?
Make Beastmaster Packs be able to get up to 20 models, and give the razorwing flock an extra attack.
Let all DEldar vehicles have the option to buy flickerfields.
I honestly don't know how to help Hellions. Their role just seems to be taken by Reavers already.
Give the Talos rampage.

All that, and I think that the Dark Eldar will have some use for just about everything in the codex.

I like all of these changes, and perhaps make ravagers have (as mentioned in another thread) 6 transport capacity? Lose open topped, 6 firing points would be fair I say. No open topped because I don't want it to take the venom's job of "fast 5 man transport" so you can put your incubi in venoms, and your blasterborn in ravagers. Also, the archon should be able to get some implanted scourge wings, as well as the jetbike you mentioned. Same for succubus.

For hellions, perhaps a point drop? You're right their job is already sort of taken by reavers. Maybe extra attacks or assault weapons instead, or give their hoverboards a splinter weapon?

While I would like Scourge Wings for the Archon/Succubus, I don't think it would be very important for internal balance. Same with a Ravager transport capacity. Thats stuff that would be awesome, but not necessary, IMHO.
Yeah, Hellions with a price drop, and maybe rage would be decent.

I will put forth my support for the Hive Mind. Brace yourselves: Massive wall of text incoming.

Eternal Warrior for all creatures in synapse range.
Army wide assault grenades.
Melee weapons stack.
Scything talons go back to reroll rules.
Replace adaptive biology with flat out fnp and it will not die.
Turn one assaults.

Hive Tyrants can buy better armor saves.
Swarmlord becomes Low and gets a better save, psyker level 4, and the ability to take retinue with him inside a pod.
Tyrant Guard need a slight point deduction, and the ability to take ranged weaponry. If you want to classify them as a guard organism, give them the ability to take cannons. They can't hit crap, but heavy cannons suddenly make tyrant and guard into an interesting gunstar.
Old One Eye. Just go ahead and drop the price by 20, and give him fnp and it will not die. Give him a new warlord trait.
Tervigons need to drop down again. You broke Tervigon spam, now tyrants are the issue. Give them a flat 180pt cost, remove the burn out clause to spawn since you made summoning a thing, and move Tervigons to a flat out troop choice. Then, people can't complain about spam being an issue, because they still need a HQ.
Tyranid Primes need to drop back down to where their price was before. There was no reason for the drastic price increase. Give them wing options. If that doesn't work, give the option to take them under a second profile called the parasite of mortrex so that we can have some kind of flying, cheap, hq. I want my fething ripper factory back
If the above fails, Parasite of Mortrex needs to come back as a HQ.
Deathleaper needs the option to take Lictors as troops. A minor price drop to 120 would also not be bad.

Tyranid Warriors are fine. Maybe a 5 pt price reduction or brotherhood of psykers would be nice.
Genestealers need shroud/stealth.
Termagants are fine.
Hormagaunts might need to drop to 4ppm. They should be beasts.
Ripper swarms should drop to 10 ppm.

Hive guard need their bs back up.
Lictors need a point decrease. Also the ability to take them in squads of 3 to 5.
Zoanthropes are fine. Just fix their shooting issues.
Venomthropes need a slight point reduction.
Haruspexes need an extra attack base, as well as a moderate point drop of 20 or so.
Pyrovores need a point their points dropped to 25-35, as well as torrent flamers.

Tyranid shrikes are ok. Maybe a 5 point reduction or brotherhood of psykers.
Raveners need a 5 point reduction.
Sky-Slasher swarms need to drop to about 14ppm.
Gargoyles need to pop down to 5ppm. Also a way to field them as troops.
Harpies are ok. They just need more weapon options.
Hive Cones need more anti aircraft options.
Spore Mines need to be able to be taken in larger units, and the ability again to be deployed first before enemy deployment.

Carnifexes are ok. Need an armor save boosting option
Biovores need a slight price drop.
Trygons need a major price drop. 160ppm is fine and the subterranean assault needs to change to a 9 inch area as well as more than just infantry being able to use them.
Trygon Primes need a price drop as well as psyker level one.
Mawlocs are perfect.
Exocrines might need a slight drop by 10 points.
Tyrannofexes need a drop to 160 or perhaps a bs increase.
Toxicrenes need to drop in price.
Malceptors need to be dropped in price to 180, get a 2+ invul save, as well as psyker level 3.

Beyond this, I'm out of ideas for now.

Jesus... just looked at the preview, and added spaces to liven things up. Hope it helps.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Spoiler:

Rihgu wrote:For the Grey Knights codex:
- Give PAGK Relentless
- Give Purifiers Shrouded
- Brother-Captain costs 110pts base
- Give Grandmasters 4W, maybe WS7 as well. edit: Alternatively, give them back their old Grand Strategy rule. Please.
- Dreadnoughts get 4A
- Let Brotherhood Champions take Personal Teleporters, let them take artifacts and weapons besides the sword. Make them 85pts base. Maybe give them Sanctuary as well (if so, bump them up to 95pts)
- No clue how to tone down the Dreadknight, but would need to be done to make any list other than HQ+2x cheapest squads+3x Dreadknights, repeat until points filled a real choice. Take away Sanctuary? Purge Soul might be a good replacement. Or maybe it doesn't need to be replaced.

I think that even with these changes, we would still see Librarian 2x Strike Squads 3x Dreadknights, which means maybe giving PAGK Relentless is too much. I'd say give them True Grit back (treat Storm Bolter as pistol in CC, so get +1A) but I don't think that would make them equally as attractive asTerminators.
Relentless+Shrouded makes Purifiers look a little more attractive for moving up the field a bit with their two big guns. Too bad they can't go to ground - I'm half tempted to say take Fearless off of them and give the Grand Master a 12" bubble, to enable go-to-ground shenanigans.
Brother-Captain costing as much as a Libby makes them, in my mind, about equal. Do you want a beatstick/caster, or do you want a caster? Might be able to skip the Grand-Master buffs as that may make them TOO good?
Dreadnoughts can't be made viable, but 4A at least gives some incentive to use them in softer lists.
Brotherhood champions with PTs lets you deep strike them with terminators, join a squad of Interceptors, or just zip up the board solo. Let them take Soul Glaive, the Bone Shard of Solor, or even Fury of Deimos to give them a little bit of flair. Overall makes them a lot more flexible. Dropping the points costs stops you from ripping the page out of the codex (150pts for a sergeant killer? what?). Giving it Sanctuary almost makes you want to take one as your second HQ instead of just taking a second Libby... Tempted to bump him up to 3A as well, but might be too much. Maybe give this little guy Fearless so he can zip around getting squads that have Gone to Ground to stand up and fight again?

All these make sense, except for the purifiers. Why would they get relentless? Why would they get shrouding? Fluff or in-game justification would be nice.

The Daemonhunters codex gave Grey Knights a special rule called "The Shrouding", which made units trying to shoot a unit of Grey Knights roll 3d6x3 and if they weren't within that range in inches, they couldn't shoot. The fluff was that the pyschic powers of Grey Knights made them difficult to target, basically. All similar rules like this became just normal Shrouded, as far as I know. Now that all Grey Knights are ACTUAL psykers, I would give Shrouded to Purifiers specifically because I imagine them constantly wreathed in their famous flames.
Relentless to all PAGK purely to make them as good at shooting as terminators. If they're not as good shooting, and also less durable, there's no point in taking them because they won't accomplish anything and barely save enough points to use elsewhere, considering how expensive the majority of Grey Knights units and upgrades are. But like I said, that might be a little too powerful.
Maybe Relentless the turn they deep strike only? I think I like that as a compromise, especially mixed with the benefits of the Nemesis Strike Force.

Space Marines:

1. Nerf grav
2. Increase the cost of bikes
3. Decrease the cost of flakk missiles to 5 ppm.
4. Increase the cost of drop pods.
5. Require complete 10 man squads to field free razorbacks (though leave the requirement for rhinos at 5 man squads).

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
I will put forth my support for the Hive Mind. Brace yourselves: Massive wall of text incoming.

Eternal Warrior for all creatures in synapse range.
Army wide assault grenades.
Melee weapons stack.
Scything talons go back to reroll rules.
Replace adaptive biology with flat out fnp and it will not die.
Turn one assaults.

Hive Tyrants can buy better armor saves.
Swarmlord becomes Low and gets a better save, psyker level 4, and the ability to take retinue with him inside a pod.
Tyrant Guard need a slight point deduction, and the ability to take ranged weaponry. If you want to classify them as a guard organism, give them the ability to take cannons. They can't hit crap, but heavy cannons suddenly make tyrant and guard into an interesting gunstar.
Old One Eye. Just go ahead and drop the price by 20, and give him fnp and it will not die. Give him a new warlord trait.
Tervigons need to drop down again. You broke Tervigon spam, now tyrants are the issue. Give them a flat 180pt cost, remove the burn out clause to spawn since you made summoning a thing, and move Tervigons to a flat out troop choice. Then, people can't complain about spam being an issue, because they still need a HQ.
Tyranid Primes need to drop back down to where their price was before. There was no reason for the drastic price increase. Give them wing options. If that doesn't work, give the option to take them under a second profile called the parasite of mortrex so that we can have some kind of flying, cheap, hq. I want my fething ripper factory back
If the above fails, Parasite of Mortrex needs to come back as a HQ.
Deathleaper needs the option to take Lictors as troops. A minor price drop to 120 would also not be bad.

Tyranid Warriors are fine. Maybe a 5 pt price reduction or brotherhood of psykers would be nice.
Genestealers need shroud/stealth.
Termagants are fine.
Hormagaunts might need to drop to 4ppm. They should be beasts.
Ripper swarms should drop to 10 ppm.

Hive guard need their bs back up.
Lictors need a point decrease. Also the ability to take them in squads of 3 to 5.
Zoanthropes are fine. Just fix their shooting issues.
Venomthropes need a slight point reduction.
Haruspexes need an extra attack base, as well as a moderate point drop of 20 or so.
Pyrovores need a point their points dropped to 25-35, as well as torrent flamers.

Tyranid shrikes are ok. Maybe a 5 point reduction or brotherhood of psykers.
Raveners need a 5 point reduction.
Sky-Slasher swarms need to drop to about 14ppm.
Gargoyles need to pop down to 5ppm. Also a way to field them as troops.
Harpies are ok. They just need more weapon options.
Hive Cones need more anti aircraft options.
Spore Mines need to be able to be taken in larger units, and the ability again to be deployed first before enemy deployment.

Carnifexes are ok. Need an armor save boosting option
Biovores need a slight price drop.
Trygons need a major price drop. 160ppm is fine and the subterranean assault needs to change to a 9 inch area as well as more than just infantry being able to use them.
Trygon Primes need a price drop as well as psyker level one.
Mawlocs are perfect.
Exocrines might need a slight drop by 10 points.
Tyrannofexes need a drop to 160 or perhaps a bs increase.
Toxicrenes need to drop in price.
Malceptors need to be dropped in price to 180, get a 2+ invul save, as well as psyker level 3.

Beyond this, I'm out of ideas for now.

Jesus... just looked at the preview, and added spaces to liven things up. Hope it helps.

If pretty much everything needs a point drop except a few units, wouldn't the best way to internally balance it just raise the points of the things that don't? Your list sounds more like an external attempt at balance than an internal one.

Not really. To be honest, I am at the point where I have little faith in Tyrants being rehabilitated properly. We just have that many units. Realistically, more than half of our units almost directly compete with each other over the same basic fields. The issue is that very few things work with each other properly, while some items are just drastically over costed. Some items just need a point cost adjustment just to stay relevant to the other units in the slot that it competes with. Look at the Pyrovore. There is virtually no reason to take them at present. Just none. You need to give it torrent and a small price adjustment just so you can put up a squad as a decent ranged anti infantry option in the elites, or it won't ever see play. By keeping things in a rough form of competative pricing, you are opening up larger avenues of creative building.

It's pretty late here, so I'll do a small bit on Tau. I'm sure other Tau players would be able to expand from there.

Nerfs
- Increase Riptide point cost and some of its upgrades (Ion Accelerator, mostly).
- Markerlight 'Scour' ability (Ignores Cover) is 1 token per point of cover removed, instead of 2 for all of it
(disclaimer: the faction probably has more points, but as I've said, it's late and of course I'm a bit biased about nerfing it. However, those 2 topics have been hot since the 6th ed Tau codex, and I agree with them).

Buffs
- Vespid's Neutron Blaster becomes Assault 2
- Kroot becomes S4
- Vehicles have multi-trackers back (used to let them move and fire as Fast vehicles, without the flat out benefit).
- Railguns (all kinds) get Armourbane. Heavy Rail Rifle (Broadside) becomes Heavy 2.
- Commander's Coldstar upgrade should be able to grab Signature Systems. T4 FMCs are a joke.
- Aun'Va gets permission to join units. Only 2 Ethereal Guards make him a sitting duck.
- Devilfish gets Fast.
- Reduce point cost of Stealth Suits by 5-8 points.
- Pathfinders have native Stealth.
(disclaimer: all these points are to make other units (non-Crisis, non-HYMP Broadsides, non-Riptides) viable as well. Suit armies are cool, but should not be the best ones at everything (as scatterbikes shouldn't be the best Eldar list at everything)).

Reworks
- Codex flyers need severe changes to even be usable.
a. Bomber needs at least S6, and the Interceptor Drones need Velocity Tracker instead of simple Skyfire.
b. Fighter needs to incorporate its ground attack profile and change the Mont'ka formation to get bonuses against ground targets (Death from the Skies mostly made that formation useless). This one should have the Networked Markerlight (why a bomber has one, I really don't know)
c. Both need AV 11 on sides.
d. Why Tau tanks have BS4 and the Flyers don't, it's a mystery.
- Most twin-linked weaponry changes to 1.5x or 2x more shots instead. Twin-link is something that very few weapons should have, no matter the codex.
- Velocity Tracker (Skyfire) and Early Warning Override (Interceptor) should have their point costs swapped.
- I really don't know what to do with Aun'Shi, but he's bad.
- Cadre Fireblade should have a different ability, as creative as Darkstrider's d6 after overwatch. His current one only adds to gunline playstyle. Allowing his unit to move and fire in the Shooting Phase? A bit Eldar-ish, but at least would invite people to take them out of backfield terrain.
- The entire overwatch theme for Tau helps a lot against melee, but I'd happily trade it for something more fluffy (but, of course, as useful as it is today).

 Vector Strike wrote:
It's pretty late here, so I'll do a small bit on Tau. I'm sure other Tau players would be able to expand from there.

Nerfs
- Increase Riptide point cost and some of its upgrades (Ion Accelerator, mostly).
- Markerlight 'Scour' ability (Ignores Cover) is 1 token per point of cover removed, instead of 2 for all of it
(disclaimer: the faction probably has more points, but as I've said, it's late and of course I'm a bit biased about nerfing it. However, those 2 topics have been hot since the 6th ed Tau codex, and I agree with them).

Buffs
- Vespid's Neutron Blaster becomes Assault 2
- Kroot becomes S4
- Vehicles have multi-trackers back (used to let them move and fire as Fast vehicles, without the flat out benefit).
- Railguns (all kinds) get Armourbane. Heavy Rail Rifle (Broadside) becomes Heavy 2.
- Commander's Coldstar upgrade should be able to grab Signature Systems. T4 FMCs are a joke.
- Aun'Va gets permission to join units. Only 2 Ethereal Guards make him a sitting duck.
- Devilfish gets Fast.
- Reduce point cost of Stealth Suits by 5-8 points.
- Pathfinders have native Stealth.
(disclaimer: all these points are to make other units (non-Crisis, non-HYMP Broadsides, non-Riptides) viable as well. Suit armies are cool, but should not be the best ones at everything (as scatterbikes shouldn't be the best Eldar list at everything)).

Reworks
- Codex flyers need severe changes to even be usable.
a. Bomber needs at least S6, and the Interceptor Drones need Velocity Tracker instead of simple Skyfire.
b. Fighter needs to incorporate its ground attack profile and change the Mont'ka formation to get bonuses against ground targets (Death from the Skies mostly made that formation useless). This one should have the Networked Markerlight (why a bomber has one, I really don't know)
c. Both need AV 11 on sides.
d. Why Tau tanks have BS4 and the Flyers don't, it's a mystery.
- Most twin-linked weaponry changes to 1.5x or 2x more shots instead. Twin-link is something that very few weapons should have, no matter the codex.
- Velocity Tracker (Skyfire) and Early Warning Override (Interceptor) should have their point costs swapped.
- I really don't know what to do with Aun'Shi, but he's bad.
- Cadre Fireblade should have a different ability, as creative as Darkstrider's d6 after overwatch. His current one only adds to gunline playstyle. Allowing his unit to move and fire in the Shooting Phase? A bit Eldar-ish, but at least would invite people to take them out of backfield terrain.
- The entire overwatch theme for Tau helps a lot against melee, but I'd happily trade it for something more fluffy (but, of course, as useful as it is today).

I'd make the cadre fireblade 50 points and give it the ability to have Volley fire stack with other fireblades. Why? Because it'd be hilarious and not really that OP, and frankly a Fireblade should cost the same as an ethereal that trades out versatility for safety and less risk. I'd also give the fireblade the ability to Volley fire markerlights and breachers.

I'd also give pulse carbines rapid fire or assult 3 instead of 2 and throw away pinnng. I feel like tau SMGs should feel like SMGs and right now they don't.

I'd remove the gets hot from the burst cannon on the riptide. It's already a questionable load out, and you've already rolled gets hot, I feel like you shouldn't have to risk burning your fingers even more.

Make pathfinder rail rifles 72 inch range. They're already a bad investment, ( a 15 point upgrade on something that's essentially a guardsmen) I feel like with the extra range would give this type of pathfinder unit the survivability to be useful.

I'd make riptide wing not a thing. Seriously, it shouldn't exist.

Make pirhana's fusion blaster upgrade cost 5 points less, or even cost nothing.

I'd make kroot strength 4 or give them two attacks base. They need to be nasty in CC, or at least good at it. I read the lore, and I thought these guys were decent at CC.

Make drone squadrons 12 points per model, with markerdrones being the only ones to cost 14.

Make the SMS upgrade free on a devil fish, and make the burst canon upgrades on vehicles be replaced with two burst canons. At least then they'd not be a direct downgrade from an SMS.

Farsight has 2+ armor and toughness 5 with a slight points bump to compensate. I feel like his stat line is worth the price, it's just the stuff he brings isn't worth it for how easily he's popped. 3+ armor on a model that costs more than 150 points? Seriously?

Aun'shi needs some sort of rework. This guy is useless.

Make plastic tetras that are part of the codex and work in the hunter cadre. Give drone net/pathfinders some competition please.

Put skyrays in the god forsaken hunter cadre please.

Make shapers psykers interesting and an HQ choice. Hell, something like "a kroot squad with shaper gains +1 strength" or "rolls on a table of close combat/shooting benefits based off what they last ate" would be cool. Also it might be cool to see them be psykers or have the option to be upgraded to one. Frankly though at this point I'm just wish listing. Just make shapers worth something. I want an excuse to buy two boxes of kroot and some shapers.

Ethereal councils should be made of independent characters not a single squad.

Throw it in a dumpster and burn it. Now it's all fused plastic. Balanced.

Martel732 wrote:
Throw it in a dumpster and burn it. Now it's all fused plastic. Balanced.

Give the baal predator 2 assault cannons instead of 1 twinlinked, make the flamer on it's turret torrent.

Give mephiston an iron halo.

make sanguinary guard 30 points.

Make Tycho not trash maybe make him a tac squad sarge upgrade for 40 points?

For my nids: remove the brainleech worm devourer weapon entry from the codex.

While it would kill nids competitively, that weapon is a no-brainer compared to the other options we have.

Just make sure to do external rebalancing asap after this

For Dark Angels
Remove Gets Hot from the Vengence
Change DW Knights smite mode back to the 6th edition version
Change the Deathwing detachment to allow for turn 1 deep strikes
Change the Ravenwing rule from rerolling to +2 inches for movement and turbo boost moves
HQ units that buy a bike upgrade get the Ravenwing rule, and have the option to buy plasma talons, for an increased cost of course.
HQ units that buy Termie armor can purchase the same mace that the DW Knights have.
Libby's get access to storm shields
Make Azrael's sword ap2
Make Azmodai's Blades of Reason rending

I think this would make just about everything in the codex useable, as it would hopefully no longer be Codex: Ravenwing

Tau Empire:

Markerlight-return to the days of 1 marker, 1 cover reduction. it would make them quite less useful.

Riptide-away with the IA's overcharge mode. either NOVA, or regular. this alone solves so much of the riptide's issue (first and foremost the intercepting AP2 pie plates)

Stealth suit-they should cost 25, not 30. (even at 25 they are questionable of value at best.)

Broadside-they deserve T5 W3 with their size. and a price bump to match (80 seems right, maybe 85) they'll be more durable, but less killy.

Vespids-slight cost reduction. (2 ppm decrease should do)

Rail weapons-not sure how, but the entire line needs a massive buff. especially in AT department. rail is supposed to be the king of ranged AT, and currently its not even an option. (maybe "every glancing or penetrating hit causes an additional roll on the damage table")

Riptide Wing-this formation should never have existed.

Hunter Contingent-add clarification that all models must shoot at same target (same as the new firebase support cadre) this will solve any target-lock abuses.

Farsight Enclaves-bring back singature systems for riptides. being unable ot take ECPA on a riptide despite it being designed for them is silly.

Aun'shi-MASSIVE point drop. he's so useless its not funny. (not as bad as old Aun'va that would be a bad choice even if he was free, but still bad.)

Devilfish-reduce cost to 70 (its just a bit too high at 80)


I'd probably think of more stuff later. there is much to say about FW units (90% of them needs serious buffs are they are unplayable), but that's not codex.

delete this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guard:
Basic Guardsmen should be 3/model with 5 pt sgt upgrade, and normalised throughout wherever they show up ( PCS,HWT, etc) and a global option for carapace armour at +2pts except for infiltrators etc
Grenade launchers should be free, because they aren't any good.

Infantry Platoon
Conscripts should be bought in groups of 10 for 25
option on 2 special weapon OR 2 heavy weapon OR 3 grenade launchers

Veterans
60 pts base
+2/ea for carapace
+3/eafor camo cloaks instead of carapace, may equip whole unit with sniper rifles for free if given this option, may not take heavy weapons
+2/ea for a melta bomb on a per-model basis, demo charge normalised at codex price

Otherwise the Vets are *alright* as they are, it's just that the regular infantry platoon is so much worse

Taurox gains fast Vehicle as standard - it'd be a viable chimera alternative if it was
Taurox Prime @ same price as standard before upgrades

Chimera - It's fine, external balance would say give it side armour 11 but that's another thread

Russ
Executioner loses gets hot on its main gun like it should - stays the same price
Demolisher drops to base 155 again
Punisher is fine as it is
Eradicator is fine as it is
Vanquisher gains a 'hull down' status if it hasn't moved yet granting it +1 to cover on top of anything else

Deathstrike gains D and can fire turn one on a 6
Manticore goes to 140, gets side armour 11 and gets the forgeworld options - AA for free, Manticore missiles for +20, storm eagles for +30
Wyvern - I'd contest that the wyvern is *fine* because it's exactly what it's supposed to do, and it's the same problem as vets - it's not *just* that it's good, it's that the alternatives are just bad
Basilisk 90 pts and side armour 11
Hydra - OPTIONAL SKYFIRE. (side armour 11)

Hellhound 90 pts base, +1 rear armour
Devildog 100 pts base +1 rear
Banewolf, same price , +1 armour, AP2

Valkyrie - 100 pts and free wing options - HB and Lascannon stay the same price
Vendetta - 150 pts, it's good, but slightly over priced - 125 was too good though

Scout Sentinel - is actually fine now, though Stealth wouldn't be missed
Armored Sentinel - Side Armour 12
Rough Riders 6 pts EA and optional power swords at +10 pts on top of the hunting lances as they are.

The elites section I don't use enough to have an informed opinion on, as they're all stylistic.

 Traditio wrote:
Space Marines:

1. Nerf grav
2. Increase the cost of bikes
3. Decrease the cost of flakk missiles to 5 ppm.
4. Increase the cost of drop pods.
5. Require complete 10 man squads to field free razorbacks (though leave the requirement for rhinos at 5 man squads).

1. Fully agree. No weapon option should be the automatic selection
2. I don't see bikes on their own as being an issue. They're really only a problem when combined with Grav weapons.
3. No opinion. I don't have enough experience with flakk missiles to say one way or the other.
4. With the new FAQ rulings, definitely. 35pts was okay before we measured from the doors, but not now.
5. You know, I've always thought this would be a good idea, but since 10 units don't fit in a Razorback, it would be less clunky just to say that the Gladius only gets free Rhinos/Drop Pods.

Now as far as my Necrons go, we have probably the best internal balance in the game, but here are a few changes I would make:

1. Tesla special rule applies to snap shots again (give me a reason to take something other than Gauss)
2. +1 Resurrection Protocols only applies to units in the Reclamation Legion. Wraiths now just get the 5+/6+ RP in the Canoptek Harvest. Trust me, that makes a big difference.
3. Powers of the C'Tan is rolled for before a target is selected.
4. The Death Ray gains one use Str D attack. The price will need to go up in order to balance this, but we need a reason to take this model again.
5. The Ghost Ark can transport Lychguard. Again, you may need to increase the price, but Necrons have just as much trouble getting non-Wraith units into melee as every other codex not featuring Team Jacob. Being able to stick them in an assault vehicle would help.

No nerfing grav until MCs get gutted or anti-tank weapons become viable again. Especially with the grenade ruling.

Do you mean MC's or just a few of them? You always seem to mean a select few. Unless we're going to argue Tyranids MC's, Wraithlords, Daemon Princes and things like that are OP

pm713 wrote:
Do you mean MC's or just a few of them? You always seem to mean a select few. Unless we're going to argue Tyranids MC's, Wraithlords, Daemon Princes and things like that are OP

They're OP for gak armies like BA and Orks. Orks have no real counters, but BA at least have regular grav. Regular grav fails against Riptides and the like, but keeps us in the game against Tyranid MCs and Wraithlords. Otherwise, they just stomp all over our expensive but helpless units. Even a lowly Carnifex or WL fights are full capacity until dead and bounce autocannons all day long. Wish my predators could say that.

change grav to wound on 4+, and do a hullpoint to vehicles on 6's and becomes AP 2 against GC/MC's

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
change grav to wound on 4+, and do a hullpoint to vehicles on 6's and becomes AP 2 against GC/MC's

Grav that wounds on a 4+ will never kill a Riptide with a reasonable amount of shots.