Making your Archon into a murder machine.

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**Slayer-Fan123**

Caedes wrote:
The previous version of the DE book was awsome.

That's a bit extreme of a statement, isn't it?

**Imateria**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Caedes wrote:
The previous version of the DE book was awsome.

That's a bit extreme of a statement, isn't it?

Not really, there are a lot of players who thought the 5th edition book was excellent.

**Red Corsair**

aushlo wrote:
It is definitely the case that there are stronger threats in the book. But the model is so darn cool. I like the idea of Sslyth for multiple reasons, not least being that the model is great. Also, unlike Grotesques, they are Fleet and can fire three accurate poisoned shots each per turn. They have the same Strength, Attacks and Toughness, Feel No Pain, a slightly better save vs. non-power weapons, and multiple wounds. They take up a single slot in a transport, too. So you could throw three and a Lhamaean in a Venom for example. And they are ten points cheaper. Grotesques are certainly a vastly superior tarpit unit and one that can win a prolonged combat. But for the points I think Sslyth are maybe just as good as escorts when you plan on killing things in a Challenge. The Archon is equipped to either kill the character, or force them to hide and instead kill the squad. Obviously Incubi are a deadly choice as well, but they are not terribly resilient.

I love sslyth myself and think they are usually overlooked by most, however they should never be used in place of grotesques for a few reasons, one being that they have piss poor leadership, while grotesques taken from a grotesquerie (because your crazy not to take them this way) are fearless. However even if you overlook that, the biggest difference are that grots have poison CCW that cause ID on a 6. This is massive, I mean MASSIVE because against small balls things you reroll to wound meaning they can't be tarpit effectively and against multiwound threats they become even more efficient killers.

I like Sslyth taken in pairs with either a lahmain or a medusa in a venom since they will erase small objective camping units while remaining durable themselves and cost effective. They can hold objectives and be a major pain to ignore basically they work similar to a CAD warrior venom but rather then stealing an objective with obsec the idea is to kill their small objective grabbers and still take it while also causing damage. 2 Sslyth and a lamhain are only 60 points (75 for a medusae) , while 5 warriors with a blaster are 55. There is way too much cover in the game currently so I fancy my odds at killing a 5 man scout squad or 3 man windrider unit much better in assault. But if you start taking these fellas in large numbers they become a point trap, something that will lose us games. 9 Sslyth with a chaperone suddenly become liabilities to things that can snipe the leadership model but also to tough heavy hitters like TWC since you won't do much damage to them while providing an huge juicy lump of points they can easily sweep.

I have also toyed with using a Sslyth as a solo unit in a venom, since the leadership becomes much less important as you will die before moral matters usually. If you consider a 2w s5 t5 model with FnP and assault 3 poison carbine and 2 ccw for a mere 25 pts a decent HQ then why not treat him like you would those 3rd ed 25 pt heamis we used to get. Sure he isn't indestructible or as cheap as a lahmian but he also isn't a total slouch and more importantly he can easily survive on backfield objectives and is less likely to die to a random storm bolter giving up an easy point from all those kill X cards.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Caedes wrote:
The previous version of the DE book was awsome.

That's a bit extreme of a statement, isn't it?

It's really not. It was a classic case of people not appreciating what they had. I played DE in 3rd, now that was a simple book, the last book had SO MANY FETHING options. We went from unique useful gear available to almost every unit, to a handful of items most specific to what gear is in what units box.

Still scratch my head and wonder why so many were complaining about the last book. I hardly ever lost a game, only to very smart opponents in tight games do to mission parameters or due to wild dice.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Caedes wrote:
The previous version of the DE book was awsome.

That's a bit extreme of a statement, isn't it?

Not at all, have you made any actual comparisons between the books yourself? We've lost 5 special characters, 2 of which were a staple of some competitive lists and 1 of which is the singular most important character in the Dark Eldar fluff. We've had countless unique special weapons diluted or downright evicted, from the ubiquitous Venom Blade going from the Go-to weapon to disappear overnight to the unique mindphase gauntlet being downgraded to worthless concussive. Meaningful Wych weapons becoming forgettable re-rolls. In exchange we gained...some gakky warlord traits and mediocre artifacts? nah.

The statement is quite accurate.

**Brutus_Apex**

I'm going to have to agree with Slayer here.

The previous DE book was Good, but it wasn't awesome.

I think most people remember it through rose tinted glasses because it was such a large release with beautiful models and good fluff.

Some of the rules however were lacking. For example:

Kadurakura (or whatever the feth this guys name was) was balls. No one took him.
Succubi were generally bad compared to Archons
Mandrakes were contestants for the worst unit in the game
Grotesques and Wracks were generally meh.
Scourges weren't great because they could only take 2 heavy weapons
Void Raves were way too expensive
Hellions were generally useless unless you took the Baron
Court of the Archon was pants, some of their rules didn't even work (i'm looking at you Lhamian)
Talos were too slow to keep up with the rest of the army
I've never even seen a Chronos
And most of those weird artifacts were super situational and bad.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

And what does the current codex fix from that?

Dark Eldar HQ's still suck, except now we don't have the choice of the Baron, Duke or Lady. Wracks are still terrible, we've swapped a fast customizable Beaststar for a slow same-y Grotstar. Void Ravens are still too expensive. Hellions suck worse now then they did with the Baron, both suck without him. Pain Engines are still too slow unless you use the Coven formations and sink a LOT of points into them. And while some of the artifacts were bad the vast majority where at least situational and had niches.

So we've gained more special weapon saturation in Scourges in exchange for less special weapon efficiency with Trueborn (3 Blasters, 3 models) and notably less effective Ravagers. We've gained a cheap throw away HQ choice in exchange for our cheap useful HQ choices. We've gained powerful Grotesques in exchange for a now terrible Beast squad.

Now lets look at the number of unique rules squatted into bland ones, just from the top of my head.

Spoiler:

**Brutus_Apex**

It doesn't fix anything.

The current DE codex is the most abysmal piece of gak ever produced by GW.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the old codex at all. I said it was a good codex and I would take it over anything in the new one. But I think that people give it a little bit more credit than it deserves.

**Red Corsair**

Brutus_Apex wrote:
I'm going to have to agree with Slayer here.

The previous DE book was Good, but it wasn't awesome.

I think most people remember it through rose tinted glasses because it was such a large release with beautiful models and good fluff.

I'd argue that most new players looked at it that way, for those like me who waited 12 years, I was literally in shock and could not have been happier.

Some of the rules however were lacking. For example:

I'll address your points one by one and try to give you the perspective from someone who played DE with those horrible Gary Morley sculpts before the overhaul.

Kadurakura (or whatever the feth this guys name was) was balls. No one took him.

In 3rd he was actually just as, if not more balls and noone took him then either. Hilariously no one ever will now either, but for totally different reasons.

Succubi were generally bad compared to Archons

This isn't being totally honest though is it. See, Succubi are about the same while they gained the glaive, they lost that incredibly useful 5pt venom blade that I'd argue is better. While they certainly outshine archons now, it's because Archons were utterly gutted and not because they improved the Succubi. I'd argue we lost an archon rather then gained a succubus.

Mandrakes were contestants for the worst unit in the game

Thats a stretch, a unit with infiltrate, an invuln and stealth that was a tad overpriced for sure but the biggest issue was the game was different. mandrakes would be in the same spot today (costwise due to creep) if maelstrom wasn't a thing. They only work now because missions drastically changed.

Grotesques and Wracks were generally meh.

This could not be further from wrong, while the coven supplement improved grots, they were never bad and were the corner stone to many lists in 5th ed. Wracks were also in a better spot, being transferable to troops while having a s4 10pt liquifier instead of a s3 15pt liquifier!

Scourges weren't great because they could only take 2 heavy weapons

I agree, scourge didn't work and are at a much better spot

Void Raves were way too expensive

Well if you thought they were way too expensive before, losing an AV and staying the same price makes them worse.

Hellions were generally useless unless you took the Baron

Yet again, they lost the baron while also becoming much worse. Losing the extra attack made these guys go from a fun unit you can maybe have work, to an unfun unit that is worthless.

Court of the Archon was pants, some of their rules didn't even work (i'm looking at you Lhamian)

The court actually is not much different, the only thing holding it back before was the restrictions mandating you needed to take at least 1 of each option and not more then X. So yes they do work much better now but without the composition restriction they were actually an amazing unit before as well.

Talos were too slow to keep up with the rest of the army

Nothing about that changed. The corpse thief claw and dark artisan remedy the mobility issue but as it stands from the actual codex nothing changed except you can invest more into the unit that is apparently too slow.

I've never even seen a Chronos

Still won't unless it is part of the requirement from dark artisan which btw I am am positive everyone would switch to another talos is it were an option

And most of those weird artifacts were super situational and bad.

Right, so better we just take all that gear away or make it mundane and boring rather then leave them as options to those that did make them work or found them fun? No, personally I'd rather have them all back.

I mean, I have learned to deal with what I have now, but if I could have my 5th ed book back I would take it any day of the week and twice on Sunday. That said, I am wary of those that want another update because I can deffinitely see even more things becoming mundane or units being dropped.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brutus_Apex wrote:
It doesn't fix anything.

The current DE codex is the most abysmal piece of gak ever produced by GW.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the old codex at all. I said it was a good codex and I would take it over anything in the new one. But I think that people give it a little bit more credit than it deserves.

Sorry I had a personal issue that took me away from finishing my last thought so it came late but I'd like to address your last comment by suggesting that i9n fact most people took the last book for granted and that is why now you hear so many people pining over it and wanting their old rules back.

I mean ideally we would get the best of both books, and I don't mean best=most powerful rather then a mix of balance and flavor.

**Brutus_Apex**

'd argue that most new players looked at it that way, for those like me who waited 12 years, I was literally in shock and could not have been happier.

Some of the rules however were lacking. For example:
I'll address your points one by one and try to give you the perspective from someone who played DE with those horrible Gary Morley sculpts before the overhaul.

Kadurakura (or whatever the feth this guys name was) was balls. No one took him.

In 3rd he was actually just as, if not more balls and noone took him then either. Hilariously no one ever will now either, but for totally different reasons.
Succubi were generally bad compared to Archons

This isn't being totally honest though is it. See, Succubi are about the same while they gained the glaive, they lost that incredibly useful 5pt venom blade that I'd argue is better. While they certainly outshine archons now, it's because Archons were utterly gutted and not because they improved the Succubi. I'd argue we lost an archon rather then gained a succubus.
Mandrakes were contestants for the worst unit in the game

Thats a stretch, a unit with infiltrate, an invuln and stealth that was a tad overpriced for sure but the biggest issue was the game was different. mandrakes would be in the same spot today (costwise due to creep) if maelstrom wasn't a thing. They only work now because missions drastically changed.
Grotesques and Wracks were generally meh.

This could not be further from wrong, while the coven supplement improved grots, they were never bad and were the corner stone to many lists in 5th ed. Wracks were also in a better spot, being transferable to troops while having a s4 10pt liquifier instead of a s3 15pt liquifier!
Scourges weren't great because they could only take 2 heavy weapons

I agree, scourge didn't work and are at a much better spot
Void Raves were way too expensive

Well if you thought they were way too expensive before, losing an AV and staying the same price makes them worse.
Hellions were generally useless unless you took the Baron

Yet again, they lost the baron while also becoming much worse. Losing the extra attack made these guys go from a fun unit you can maybe have work, to an unfun unit that is worthless.
Court of the Archon was pants, some of their rules didn't even work (i'm looking at you Lhamian)
The court actually is not much different, the only thing holding it back before was the restrictions mandating you needed to take at least 1 of each option and not more then X. So yes they do work much better now but without the composition restriction they were actually an amazing unit before as well.
Talos were too slow to keep up with the rest of the army

Nothing about that changed. The corpse thief claw and dark artisan remedy the mobility issue but as it stands from the actual codex nothing changed except you can invest more into the unit that is apparently too slow.
I've never even seen a Chronos

Still won't unless it is part of the requirement from dark artisan which btw I am am positive everyone would switch to another talos is it were an option
And most of those weird artifacts were super situational and bad.

Right, so better we just take all that gear away or make it mundane and boring rather then leave them as options to those that did make them work or found them fun? No, personally I'd rather have them all back.

I mean, I have learned to deal with what I have now, but if I could have my 5th ed book back I would take it any day of the week and twice on Sunday. That said, I am wary of those that want another update because I can deffinitely see even more things becoming mundane or units being dropped.

Archons definitely took a hit. The big reason no one took Succubi was because they couldn't get a Shadow Field. My big beef is the fact that they haven't managed to differentiate the two enough. They are both beat sticks with different weapon options, at least make them serve a purpose outside of just killing things. Literally no thought went into them at all in the last codex.

Mandrakes were terrible. They had no shooting until they gained a pain token from killing a unit, or if a Haemonculus was with them (then they couldn't infiltrate). They needed cover to survive but had no assault grenades so they struck last against everything they charged. I don't consider a toughness 3 unit with a 5++ and stealth to be worth 18pts/model.

Wracks were in a better spot, and thats saying something lol. I hate this new book. They should always be Troops.

The Void Raven somehow got worse which is insane for the cost.

Hellions are basically useless now, yes.

Talos should be Jump MC.

I don't like the elimination of choices including artifacts etc. But I really don't like situational weapons simply from a gaming and practical point of view. I just prefer items to do the job I need them to do in an efficient manor. I would like all of the old artifacts back as well, and rework the new artifacts so that they aren't terrible. But as you probably know already, this last codex was a write off. They wrote it down on a cocktail napkin the day before it was due and handed it in.

My critique of the last codex is, for the most part splitting hairs. The codex was fine, but I don't like Phil Kelly as a rules writer. I feel he's extremely sloppy and implements very odd, situational rules that I have no time to keep track of, or care to use.

Sorry I had a personal issue that took me away from finishing my last thought so it came late but I'd like to address your last comment by suggesting that i9n fact most people took the last book for granted and that is why now you hear so many people pining over it and wanting their old rules back.

I mean ideally we would get the best of both books, and I don't mean best=most powerful rather then a mix of balance and flavor.

No worries.

I understand what you mean. I feel that way about the 3.5 Chaos Marine Codex. Despite it's many flaws, you could field any army you wanted. It was amazing from a fluff point of view.

I agree, a mix of balance and flavour is key. It's what I desire in all codexes.

**aushlo**

@Red Corsair: I, just got two more Sslyth (for three total), and have three Medusae stand-ins as well as a kitbashed Lahmaen. I may run them all tomorrow and see how they do in a Raider, with Archon and Agonizer. I do wonder what they were thinking when they costed Ur-Ghouls though. I think Sslyth have a lot of potential and the thing everyone seems to be overlooking is that they can tank ID shots for the Archon quite well too, for hardly any points. FNP versus a Lascannon or Melta is actually bonkers for the points! Your conversions are killer, by the way.

I'm surprised no one likes the Cronos, I've had mine be a very good force multiplier. Once you get up to 4+ Feel No Pain in a bubble it gets so that with a little cover even your Kabalites get pretty darn tough. You definitely need to run the Dark Artisan to make it work well though. I had a game against Necrons a couple weeks back where one of my regular gaming buddies commented on how he was beginning to understand how frustrated we must feel in the face of Protocols because I just kept rocking those FNP rolls.

Why they didn't make more of the DE weapons Poisoned or Fleshbane is beyond me. Liquifiers would become very cool with that one change. One or two Fleshbane weapons on the HQ models would be amazing.

**Imateria**

I love my Cronos as well, but it was better in the last codex since it was cheaper, had Power from Pain and could take all of it's Spirit gear instead of the 2 out of 3 we have now.

I think a lot of people underestimate what got better in the current codex but there's no denying we lost more than we gained.

**Red Corsair**

aushlo wrote:
@Red Corsair: I, just got two more Sslyth (for three total), and have three Medusae stand-ins as well as a kitbashed Lahmaen. I may run them all tomorrow and see how they do in a Raider, with Archon and Agonizer. I do wonder what they were thinking when they costed Ur-Ghouls though. I think Sslyth have a lot of potential and the thing everyone seems to be overlooking is that they can tank ID shots for the Archon quite well too, for hardly any points. FNP versus a Lascannon or Melta is actually bonkers for the points! Your conversions are killer, by the way.

I'm surprised no one likes the Cronos, I've had mine be a very good force multiplier. Once you get up to 4+ Feel No Pain in a bubble it gets so that with a little cover even your Kabalites get pretty darn tough. You definitely need to run the Dark Artisan to make it work well though. I had a game against Necrons a couple weeks back where one of my regular gaming buddies commented on how he was beginning to understand how frustrated we must feel in the face of Protocols because I just kept rocking those FNP rolls.

Why they didn't make more of the DE weapons Poisoned or Fleshbane is beyond me. Liquifiers would become very cool with that one change. One or two Fleshbane weapons on the HQ models would be amazing.

Great to hear I have been of some help and good on you for giving a court a try, I will tell you out the gate however that at somepoint you want to either get more ssyth or take an equal number of t3 models because when a mixed toughness unit has a majority toughness in a unit or is tied you use that toughness for any model hit when rolling to wound. In other words if you have equal or more sslyth then other models including the archon, the majority toughness will be 5 which makes them that much more durable. If you field your current court + archon even if the Sslyth are out front the opponent will only roll to wound on t3 at which point the court become the equivalent of a larger unit of wrack mostly.

I don't mind cronos btw but you need to build an army around them which isn't my own style at all. I have dabbled with the idea of taking them solo as durable objective campers but then I find myself wanting a talos instead every time. They could be good in a coven foot build though bumping grots into FNP 4+ is always nice, but again I always take a grotesquerie which doesn't really need it much.

I will admit however that some of this feedback is coming from someone that is spoiled for options, I own an idiotic amount of DE so I am able to be overly critical of certain options over others, that doesn't mean you can't make an amazing list with certain models I tend not to use if you have the right strategy and balance in that list.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Imateria wrote:
I love my Cronos as well, but it was better in the last codex since it was cheaper, had Power from Pain and could take all of it's Spirit gear instead of the 2 out of 3 we have now.

I think a lot of people underestimate what got better in the current codex but there's no denying we lost more than we gained.

They definitely priced it too close to the talos. When I first saw it I assumed it was 100 with it's necessary gear but later was unimpressed since it becomes virtually as extensive as the Talos but far less dangerous.

**Kholzerino**

Where do Haemonculous fit in with all this HQ chat? Don't they have better weapons and FNP and better toughness and other nice buffs...?

**aushlo**

Haemonculi are pretty solid all around I think, arguably the most useful of the bunch from my games. Bumping up Power From Pain is very good. I have had luck running mine with just the Scissorhand lately. Mine killed a Techmarine and took a wound off a Terminator Chaplain this evening. My Archon was with a trio of Sslyth (forgot to bring my Medusae) in a Venom with dual cannons. They didn't do much, killed a couple of Iron Hands in shooting but ate a round of fire from a unit of Sternguard wounding on 2's and only lost one sslyth, pretty boss that. Sadly, no getting in to slice and dice this game. I realize now that the Lhamaean doesn't even still have the old poison improvement anymore, so to hell with my kitbashed one unless I need a cheap HQ option I guess. The Dark Artisan worked ok, killing off the Terminators in close combat but the monsters were looking pretty rough when we called it- i failed an absurd number of 3+ saves and FNP at 4+ for them, losing the Cronos pretty much the moment it was a decent target.

**Imateria**

The only time I've run Haemonculi is as part of the Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie, a T4, 3W HQ with 6+ armour and 5+ FnP and no access to the Shadowfield or Clonefield makes for an easy kill outside of tough power house units like the afformentioned formations These days when running a CAD my HQ choice will likely be either a Succubus or Drazhar and run them with a squad of Incubi. From now on the Archon will be reserved for the Purge Cotorie formation (It worked well in the one game I've run it in, we'll see how it goes in future games.) whilst I'll keep the Haemonculus in the Coven formations where he works best.

**Red Corsair**

Imateria wrote:
The only time I've run Haemonculi is as part of the Dark Artisan or Grotesquerie, a T4, 3W HQ with 6+ armour and 5+ FnP and no access to the Shadowfield or Clonefield makes for an easy kill outside of tough power house units like the afformentioned formations These days when running a CAD my HQ choice will likely be either a Succubus or Drazhar and run them with a squad of Incubi. From now on the Archon will be reserved for the Purge Cotorie formation (It worked well in the one game I've run it in, we'll see how it goes in future games.) whilst I'll keep the Haemonculus in the Coven formations where he works best.

I'll second this.

Though I would like to point out while someone mentioned lahmain as a cheap HQ that despite them no longer upgrading weapons of the Archon and being 10 points, they really are what wyches wish they were. I mean 10 points for a model with 3 attacks on the charge that wounds anything on a 2+ is actually pretty dope. I have been meaning to run a raider with a full 10 to see how they fair as an assault unit. 100 pts, before the raider, for 30 poisoned 2+ attacks could be very devastating to certain enemy units. Sure there will be games they don't do much, but at that price who can really complain.

**Brutus_Apex**

Though I would like to point out while someone mentioned lahmain as a cheap HQ that despite them no longer upgrading weapons of the Archon and being 10 points, they really are what wyches wish they were. I mean 10 points for a model with 3 attacks on the charge that wounds anything on a 2+ is actually pretty dope. I have been meaning to run a raider with a full 10 to see how they fair as an assault unit. 100 pts, before the raider, for 30 poisoned 2+ attacks could be very devastating to certain enemy units. Sure there will be games they don't do much, but at that price who can really complain.

I'll second this. This is currently what I use my wyche models for. Their Lahmain's now, because they can actually kill something, which Wyches can't....