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 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
The main problem is two-fold:

First, GW has long ascribed to the horrible sci fi trope that each planet in the Imperium can be summed up in basically one word. This is the desert planet. Arabs live here. This is the snow planet. Russians live here. This is the jungle planet. Rambo lives here. Then to make matters worse, they stopped selling or even talking about the majority of those planets, leaving planet Rambo and planet NATO (both with the most hideously proportioned plastic infantry on the market). So there are very few options left for representing different races and cultures even in GWs insultingly simplistic way.

Second, GW is simply casually racist (from an American's perspective). I don't think Brits think about these things very often, but when you create a fantasy setting of this scope, and you fail to portray even a single non-white person, your personal biases are showing.

Authors may talk about different races (and mixed gender guard units) in novels, but they have a lot of leeway in what they portray. Meanwhile GW proper is horrible. The GW studio used to have at least have one black space marine chapter (separate but equal, eh?) Then they turned them into jet-black mutants. Outside the hideously mutated Salamanders, every guardsman and marine they show is white - what does that say about how they view people of color?

I challenge anyone to find a non-white human in any of the official 'eavy metal 40k armies from the past few years, or in any recent codex art. I'd love to be proven wrong on this.

This is malicious SJW propaganda! I've seen scattered artwork and minor side characters in books with white leads that show INDIVIDUAL persons of colour! RACISM IS OVER!

The Imperium is fairly liberal with regards to skin colour. If you are a pure, non-mutant, Emperor-fearing citizen (which includes the draft) then you're A-Okay!


GW and many painters I see have a habit of going for white skin, even subconciously, as the countries they sell to most (UK, US, Europe, Canada, Australia a little as well) are primarily "white" countries, with the 3 non-European countries on that list being ex-British colonies. Habit I guess?

However, in terms of "black" or "non-white" armies there really isn't anything particularly offensive I can think of. There's certainly nothiny like "The Hudas Penal Legion" made up of dark skinned Hive Gangers forced into service, or asian looking regiments that are all master hand to hand combatants or any particular racial stereotypes.

The closest thing I can really think of is the White Scars who have a very East Asian appearance, but on the other hand, they based entirely on Genghis Khan so..

 Deadshot wrote:
If you are a pure, non-mutant, Emperor-fearing citizen (which includes the draft) then you're A-Okay!

Just a snippet of the Throneworld novel how A-Okay you are as a minority in the IoM.
Warning it does contain actual spoilers.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
If you are a pure, non-mutant, Emperor-fearing citizen (which includes the draft) then you're A-Okay!

Just a snippet of the Throneworld novel how A-Okay you are as a minority in the IoM.
Warning it does contain actual spoilers.

Spoiler:

He flung his lanky body at the feet of the Space Marine, clutching gratefully at the feet of their saviours. The longshanks wept, disbelieving of their salvation. The Space Marine nudged Marast away with its enormous boot.
‘Non-standard human phenotype identified. Loathe the mutant. Terminate.’ Haas curled up and clapped her hands over her ears as the Space Marines opened fire with their terrible weapons. The longshanks did not even have time to express their surprise before their fragile bodies were pulped by mass-reactive shells. The gunfire went on forever, the individual reports merging into one rolling booming. When it stopped, Haas was amazed to find she still lived. Her hands shook as she took them from her ears. The longshanks had been obliterated, reduced to a gory slick that dripped from the walls. Her ears hurt agonisingly and she cried out. The Space Marine swung its blocky helmet in her direction, pointing its bolter at her. She screamed again, and the Space Marine moved his bolter away from her. When he spoke to her it was muffled, as if her ears were stuffed with fabric.
‘Human survivor located. You, come with us.’ The warrior pointed a massive articulated finger at her, the segments sparking with a power field. ‘The Emperor protects.’

I did say non-mutant. If you are deviant enough to be picked up as "non standard" you are likely a filthy heretic mutant. I don't know that novel but I'm guessing he wasnt an average human by the "lanky" comment.

The humanoid in the example was not a mutant. It was an allowed ab-human from a low G planet.


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If you are deviant enough to be picked up as "non standard" you are likely a filthy heretic mutant.

This sounds very familiar

 oldzoggy wrote:
The humanoid in the example was not a mutant. It was an allowed ab-human from a low G planet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

If you are deviant enough to be picked up as "non standard" you are likely a filthy heretic mutant.

This sounds very familiar

There is no need to bring that into 40k. It goes without saying that there is no valid comparison to be made between what you posted and a fictional universe where the human race actually is on the brink of annihilation due to aliens, mutants and heretics. Given the setting and "realities" of 40k, the Space Marines probably were justified that little snippet. They certainly would be in a position to know. Again, that fiction cannot be compared to things in reality.

ExFideFortis wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
The humanoid in the example was not a mutant. It was an allowed ab-human from a low G planet.


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If you are deviant enough to be picked up as "non standard" you are likely a filthy heretic mutant.

This sounds very familiar

There is no need to bring that into 40k. It goes without saying that there is no valid comparison to be made between what you posted and a fictional universe where the human race actually is on the brink of annihilation due to aliens, mutants and heretics. Given the setting and "realities" of 40k, the Space Marines probably were justified that little snippet. They certainly would be in a position to know. Again, that fiction cannot be compared to things in reality.

Thanks for that accusation ExFide*** but no. Let's not get into that stuff. But for arguments sake I'll explain why its different.
Jew = human with a particularly religion and heritage, from another part of the world.
Those guys = human sub-type (or ab-human, which means not human), that are genetically deviant enough to be detected by a mechanically scanner that lacks bias. Its literally a scanner that says if the target matches human DNA or not.

In this case not. So purge, because its a potential threat to the human, its a potential heretic and potential mutant. Anything not human is a threat to humanity, even today, that's a fact. Its unfortunate that they tetered just outside the acceptable level of human, but they weren't human.


Edit; *** I mistakenly wrote ExFide, sorry there buddy! Should have been directed at Zoggy.

You could have an army of Beastmen Guardsmen or Felinid (cat people) guardsmen. Each world would have to tithe out, and there are accepted Abhuman species as well.

Really, the Imperium cares not if you are black, white, Asian, Latino, Beastmen or cat person. If you fight and die for the Emperor, that is all that matters. (Though, the latter will probably be a bit more distrusted...)

I wasn't aiming at jew. Its way to specific, and bad for the discussion. I was supplying the link because it gives a global image of the historical "untermench" idea.

This

Those guys = human sub-type (or ab-human, which means not human), that are genetically deviant enough to be detected by a mechanically scanner that lacks bias. Its literally a scanner that says if the target matches human DNA or not. In this case not. So purge, because its a potential threat to the human, its a potential heretic and potential mutant. Anything not human is a threat to humanity, even today, that's a fact

Is a literal translation of one of the darkest elements in WOII nazi ideology. The English translation of untermensch is even subhuman on the holocaustresearchproject.org itself. Here is a picture of a pre WOII equivalent of your mechanical scanner. It was believed to be without bias but got somehow discredited after WOII. Note this picture is taken in the US in 1927 as part of the background check for a presidential candidate.


Face it the Black templar in my snippet is a racist pig. He is later on even ordered not to kill non standard humans on sight but to bring them in for examination first, by the good guys in the story.
It is is all right to have racist elements it adds to the whole Grim dark distopian feel of the IoM and the setting as a whole but we can't deny it is there.

 oldzoggy wrote:
I wasn't aiming at jew. Its way to specific, and bad for the discussion. I was supplying the link because it gives a global image of the historical "untermench" idea.

This

Those guys = human sub-type (or ab-human, which means not human), that are genetically deviant enough to be detected by a mechanically scanner that lacks bias. Its literally a scanner that says if the target matches human DNA or not. In this case not. So purge, because its a potential threat to the human, its a potential heretic and potential mutant. Anything not human is a threat to humanity, even today, that's a fact

Is a literal translation of one of the darkest elements in WOII nazi ideology. The English translation of untermensch is even subhuman on the holocaustresearchproject.org itself. Here is a picture of a pre WOII equivalent of your mechanical scanner. It was believed to be without bias but got somehow discredited after WOII. Note this picture is taken in the US in 1927 as part of the background check for a presidential candidate.

Spoiler:

Face it the Black templar in my snippet is a racist pig. He is later on even ordered not to kill non standard humans on sight but to bring them in for examination first, by the good guys in the story.
It is is all right to have racist elements it adds to the whole Grim dark distopian feel of the IoM and the setting as a whole but we can't deny it is there.

Alright, "jew" and Nazism is way too specific, but there's a very clear difference between labelling someone "subhuman" because you look down and don't like them, and actually being subhuman, on a genetic level, so that an unbiased computer system can detect that. In modern terms any of those discriminated people are still human. An Abhuman isn't even the same species, there is no comparison.

Don't you think the term "subhuman" has inherent negative connotations which immediately bring to mind the eugenics movement in the 20s to 50s?

Difference species is more accurate (unless they can interbreed and produce fertile offspring, of course).

there is no comparison.

Is there really ?

Imagine a project where you sampled the DNA of a significant portion of all Humans in the universe. So that a smart algorithm can cluster all those DNA samples based on motions in otherwise good conserved parts of the genome.

The difference is that DNA sequencing gives you a more reliable data set then measuring skulls. But the data set nor the method of getting it isn't the real issue. The real issue is that the raw data doesn't tell you what is human and what isn't. Someone still has to decide what is and what isn't classed as human. This classification is just as arbitrary in the grim dark future as it is now and it was then.

We can go back to the example to see how there is no difference at all. lets take Terran humans samples as a standard and set the non human X% deviation in critical DNA markers. This is easy right we can now condemn all those Mutants of far off worlds as non humans who need to be purged to preserve the purity of the human race. Now lets go back at our current situation and use the DNA samples provided by the human genome project. We can take the purest strains of Arian DNA samples as a reference of what a pure human is and apply the same method of applying X% deviation to see what is not human in order to purge those vile non humans.

Or you could choose an other approach such as marking all humans with a tail gene as not human. But what makes this all that different from choosing some other arbitrary gene that doesn't occur in your sample group. Such as genes related to the production of pigments.

Yes, different races are portraited in various regiments.

Cadians (Mordians, Elysians, Harakons, Armageddons...) are mixed. Imagine them as an average European people.
Catachans are often black, because why not? Statistically, Afroamericans are more muscular than others (Genetics!) and it suits the Catachan style.
You can have Space-Asians, the Attilans.
There are also Arabs (which are not a separate race, they belong into Indo-European category), the Tallarns.
The Jaguars from Oran I probably resembles ancient Mayas or Aztecs.*
Warriors from Wastdat I looks like Chineese or Japaneese WW2 soldiers. *
I cant recall any Native-american regiment or world right now, but there was a man named Shiv in Last Chancers, who resembles an native-american.

You can also have a completely different race. The people of Nocturne, which are black. Literally, like a tire.
Or Felinids, the Khajiit in SPAAAAAAAAAAACEEEEEEEEE. Yay!

And to your question, if they are portrayed only as barbaric or outcasts. No. Everybody could be portrayed as a barbaric (Kanak Skull takers) or ourcasts (Savlar Chem dogs), so no racial discrimination here, please disperse.

P.S. CalgarsPimpHand suffers from IEIDT syndrome. IEIDT stands for "Insufficently Educated In Discussed Topic"

*from 3rd Imperial Guard rulebook

To make it more complicated. There is no clear cut definition on what is a species for modern day Biologist. The difference in species isn't some granular or binary system it is more likely to be a gradual system of changing genes. Most sane biologist just see the term species as an artificial construct.

Here is more information on it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rm94XtFK6I

Sure you could take the current sort accepted route and making the ability to produce fertile offspring or not as a criteria but what does this really mean in an age where genetic alteration and fertility treatments are not unknown to the species in question.

 oldzoggy wrote:

there is no comparison.

Is there really ?

Imagine a project where you sampled the DNA of a significant portion of all Humans in the universe. So that a smart algorithm can cluster all those DNA samples based on motions in otherwise good conserved parts of the genome.

The difference is that DNA sequencing gives you a more reliable data set then measuring skulls. But the data set nor the method of getting it isn't the real issue. The real issue is that the raw data doesn't tell you what is human and what isn't. Someone still has to decide what is and what isn't classed as human. This classification is just as arbitrary in the grim dark future as it is now and it was then.

We can go back to the example to see how there is no difference at all. lets take Terran humans samples as a standard and set the non human X% deviation in critical DNA markers. This is easy right we can now condemn all those Mutants of far off worlds as non humans who need to be purged to preserve the purity of the human race. Now lets go back at our current situation and use the DNA samples provided by the human genome project. We can take the purest strains of Arian DNA samples as a reference of what a pure human is and apply the same method of applying X% deviation to see what is not human in order to purge those vile non humans.

Or you could choose an other approach such as marking all humans with a tail gene as not human. But what makes this all that different from choosing some other arbitrary gene that doesn't occur in your sample group. Such as genes related to the production of pigments.

I understand what you're saying but it really isn't the same.

Black, white, asian, mixed, Jew, etc, on modern day earth, are all humans, obviously. The difference between them are as superficial as the pigmentation of their skin to adapt to different sunlight levels, slight variance in height and muscle density brought on by natural selection. There's no human however with a tail, horns, feline characteristics. The closest thing we have to "adhumans" are dwarfs (ie, Peter Dinklage) who are just humans who failed to properly develop in the womb, or had a issue in pregancy leading to those minor cosmetic differences. But all still human. Arian is not the basic human genome either, its just one of several possible phenotypes of human. The derivation X% of all modern day humans is 0%, as all modern day humans are the baseline.

All the abhumans are called abhumans because they are so far develoved from humanity they are along a different evolutionary path, with non-human characteristics. They are not humans. They have more than 0% deviation. Humans do not have tails, horns, talons, lay eggs, or have gills. Don't get me wrong, some abhumans are closer to humans than others. Demiurg sound like basically short humans. Beastmen on the other hand are completely different and are themselves on the cusp of being purged.



Griddlelol: Yes, it does. No denying that.
But the difference, again, is that those movements used them as derogative terms for other humans. Whereas those "abhumans" are literally sub-species of the modern day man. They are devolved from humans in the same way that dogs are devolved from wolves.
Also that definition really has no bearing in sci-fi. Genestealers and humans are definitely not the same species but doesn't stop Genestealer Hybrids knocking up other humans.

Does it really matter what race or species someone is? Isn't it more important what their character is like?

If you really have to make race a consideration for your miniature plastic soldiers instead of painting them in a way that looks good for you, maybe the problem is elsewhere.

I agree to this.

The fluff itself tells you that there are almost endless possibilities bout the humans and planets and societies. So its up to everyone to make the regiment he or she likes.

Its absolutely possible by the fluff itself. So where comes the need of "official GW aproved" race specivic regiments?
perhaps lack of fantasy? or is there the need to be "explicit allowed" to use the own brain?


For me the matte of "race" in 40k is on a totaly other level than these race matters on our earth. Someone already mentioned it:

It does not matter at all if a human is black white or whatelse. they are all humans. Ogryns , halflings and so on are a sub-species of humanity. they are not real humans on their own. they are a sub species that is condisered to be not a harmfull mutation and a somehow fixed genotype.

"race" in the nowaday sense is not a matter in 40k... as far as i see and understands it.

At the risk of bringing practicality into a joyous romp through the hypersensitive and inappropriate world of social justice warriors, I noticed that no one actually mentioned this.

The GW painting team has to paint hundreds of Imperial Guard models for every different style of Guard army (Cadian. Tallarn, Catachan, Mordian, Vostroyan, Valhallan). Warhammer world likely has literally thousands and thousands of guard models on display and in storage. The choice to paint almost exclusively in lighter skin tones may reflect the need to simplify the painting process to the point that such a massive horde can be quickly and efficiently painted to a high standard.

Along those same lines most of the models are photographed and displayed at distances from ~8in - 4ft away from the model. Perhaps dark skin tones simply do not allow for the level of detail that lighter tones do when displayed in this manner. For example, the heavy flamer conversions on pg 12 of the Catachan codex show one dark and two lighter toned models. The darker model LOOKS less detailed. Maybe its not in real life but that's how it looks in the photo. The face especially, shows little detail.

Now I know that these things I've mentioned are not as fun as being the self-righteous savior of the underprivileged but they may just be true. Remember media can lack racial diversity without being racist. Not every army with 'white' models is a window into the creator's oily, hate filled, bigotous heart.

 Deadshot wrote:

All the abhumans are called abhumans because they are so far develoved from humanity they are along a different evolutionary path, with non-human characteristics They are not humans.

Any group of organisms separated from the the other group will independently develop new traits this is just how nature works. Naming something as a non-human characteristic is a human construction and who are the terran humans to say that their newly gained traits are acceptable while those on the other side of the void are not. Things might become clearer when we reverse some things in a mind game. Lets assume that the true terran Humans go to an other planet (you are one of them now). Both separate communities of humans continue to evolve over the next 10.000 years in a different way. They reconnect after those 10.000 years should the true humans from an other planet now suddenly start purging earth for having humans with non human characteristics ?

You know that this would lead to a periodical purging all non Terran humans, and that a similar way of thinking by the first humanoids who did choose to remain in Africa would lead to a periodical purge of all non African humans right ?

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

All the abhumans are called abhumans because they are so far develoved from humanity they are along a different evolutionary path, with non-human characteristics They are not humans.

Any group of organisms separated from the the other group will independently develop new traits this is just how nature works. Naming something as a non-human characteristic is a human construction and who are the terran humans to say that their newly gained traits are acceptable while those on the other side of the void are not. Things might become clearer when we reverse some things in a mind game. Lets assume that the true terran Humans go to an other planet (you are one of them now). Both separate communities of humans continue to evolve over the next 10.000 years in a different way. They reconnect after those 10.000 years should the true humans from an other planet now suddenly start purging earth for having humans with non human characteristics ?

You know that this would lead to a periodical purging all non Terran humans, and that a similar way of thinking by the first humanoids who did choose to remain in Africa would lead to a periodical purge of all non African humans right ?

Very true, except for the fact that the first humanoids who lived in Africa did not then reconquer the world and establish an empire where any non-African is a deviant, and there's also intelligent animals trying to kill them all, and half the human population rebels and is trying to sacrifice the other half to evil gods of Chaos. Also, those two different communities won't show up with horns and tails, just like non-Africans wouldn't show up with horns, wings and tails and face tentacles. In both scenarios, if one side of humans showed up, saw the other side and saw (physically) that their counterparts were more animal than human, neither would recognise them as human. Its also unlikely the newly evolved Beastmen (for an example), would look at themselves as humans either, having looked back in history and said "this is a human, it has no horns, no hooves and very little fur."


In 40k, mutation is caused by genetics and evolution, but also by the Warp. Its impossible to tell which is which. Its unpleasant to have to exterminate both, but its too dangerous for the whole of Mankind to leave Warp mutants alive.

Its like this. Your pet mouse falls in a hole. You go in after and find a colony of rats who all look similar to your mouse. You can't go looking through each and every one to find your pet, and you can't risk accidentally taking a diesease ridden rat home instead of your mouse, and you need to kill the rats, so the only safe way to do it is kill them all and suffer the loss of your pet.

 Hawky wrote:
Yes, different races are portraited in various regiments.

Cadians (Mordians, Elysians, Harakons, Armageddons...) are mixed. Imagine them as an average European people.

I have always painted my Mordians in fifths by skin tone, and then shuffle into squads as I own hundreds... I also wrote my long form fiction as such.
But I had it (politely) pointed out to me that... It's quite possible there are less (or no) Mordians of colour.
They live on half of the planet with no natural light, ever. When they deploy, they suffer distraction and coordination penalties wherever there is open sky.
I think they're quite likely pasty as feth.
I've also been told "all Tanith born Ghosts are white" by fans of their series. I'd feel like asking Dan Abnett some time, but I really really don't want to turn a lovely story into some kind of race politics.

Just a fun fact to throw in here, all Space Marines are in fact black-skinned. They are also white-skinned. And brown-skinned. All at the same time.
How this is possible? The melanchromic organ. People always seem to forget about that implant. It changes the pigment level of the skin depending on the amount of sunlight. So Space Marines on a sunny planet are black, and when they travel to a cloudy planet they turn white.
Now look at Space Marine artwork. Do you notice something?
It is always dark in the artwork! There always are big ominous clouds of some kind, you never see Space Marines in nice and sunny tropical climates. So that must be why they are always white in the artwork

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
Yes, different races are portraited in various regiments.

Cadians (Mordians, Elysians, Harakons, Armageddons...) are mixed. Imagine them as an average European people.

I have always painted my Mordians in fifths by skin tone, and then shuffle into squads as I own hundreds... I also wrote my long form fiction as such.
But I had it (politely) pointed out to me that... It's quite possible there are less (or no) Mordians of colour.
They live on half of the planet with no natural light, ever. When they deploy, they suffer distraction and coordination penalties wherever there is open sky.
I think they're quite likely pasty as feth.
I've also been told "all Tanith born Ghosts are white" by fans of their series. I'd feel like asking Dan Abnett some time, but I really really don't want to turn a lovely story into some kind of race politics.

Heh, realistically all Mordians would be albino. No sunlight means no use for pigment, meaning that through evolution they'd likely have lost all pigment entirely over the milennia. They'd have great natural camouflage on ice worlds though

Different races?
There is human and abhuman, everything else is either xenos or mutant and therefore heretical. Even terran humans will probably be different enough from modern man (what with the various wars and strife that turned most of earth into wasteland.

Humans 38,000 years in the future will probably look a little different to current homo sap. As much (if not more) than we look different to our forebears from 38,000 years in the past.

They will probably bear changes related to both genetics and environment of their colony worlds, in addition to any other forced changes needed beyond that (The emperor used genetic engineering techniques to create his marines, so it stands to reason that during their zenith, in the bright age of humanity - Humanity could and probably did use those techniques as well to adapt to their new homes where necessary.).

If anything, history has shown that humans have a tendency to do things because they CAN, not just because they should.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Just a fun fact to throw in here, all Space Marines are in fact black-skinned. They are also white-skinned. And brown-skinned. All at the same time.
How this is possible? The melanchromic organ. People always seem to forget about that implant. It changes the pigment level of the skin depending on the amount of sunlight. So Space Marines on a sunny planet are black, and when they travel to a cloudy planet they turn white.
Now look at Space Marine artwork. Do you notice something?
It is always dark in the artwork! There always are big ominous clouds of some kind, you never see Space Marines in nice and sunny tropical climates. So that must be why they are always white in the artwork

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
Yes, different races are portraited in various regiments.

Cadians (Mordians, Elysians, Harakons, Armageddons...) are mixed. Imagine them as an average European people.

I have always painted my Mordians in fifths by skin tone, and then shuffle into squads as I own hundreds... I also wrote my long form fiction as such.
But I had it (politely) pointed out to me that... It's quite possible there are less (or no) Mordians of colour.
They live on half of the planet with no natural light, ever. When they deploy, they suffer distraction and coordination penalties wherever there is open sky.
I think they're quite likely pasty as feth.
I've also been told "all Tanith born Ghosts are white" by fans of their series. I'd feel like asking Dan Abnett some time, but I really really don't want to turn a lovely story into some kind of race politics.

Heh, realistically all Mordians would be albino. No sunlight means no use for pigment, meaning that through evolution they'd likely have lost all pigment entirely over the milennia. They'd have great natural camouflage on ice worlds though

Although, Space Marines also fight in atmospheres where the sunlight levels are blinding and in pitch blackness (and use natural IR and UV vision so see if they don't have helmets. Except for Salamanders, who are always coal black, and Raven Guard who are always pasty.

 Deadshot wrote:

Also, those two different communities won't show up with horns and tails, just like non-Africans wouldn't show up with horns, wings and tails and face tentacles.

The purged humans in my example where just more feeble / longer limbed no horns no fur just a bit stretched due to low grav that's all. Man has changed more from going out of Africa then that.

Fun facts:

All humans alive today, with the exception of a small group in Africa, have between 1%-3% of their DNA from Neanderthal. Are those with Neanderthal DNA human? Yes. Are those without Neanderthal DNA human? Yes. This means that baseline "humans" deviate by least 3%.

Chimpanzes deviant from human DNA by 3%. There is a move right now to reclassify Pan Troglydite (Chimps and Bonobos) as Homo Troglydite, as they are our closest non-human cousins that are genetically close enough to be within the varience noted across all humans. Are they human?

When we go back far enough in our own genetic, morphilogical, and foscial records, all humans were once tree climbing rodents, and even further back, all humans were fish. Take it all the way back, and all humans are single-cell organisms, were makes all living creatures related. But we are the only ones that are human.

There is no such thing as subhuman. Evolution is not a ladder, with humans on a higher rung. Evolution is tree of many, many branchs, of which several were human, but currently one branch definitely is. And some of those branchs that aren't there anymore merged back with our branch, which means the human branch start well before those branched off.

And on a 40k note, Humans and Eldar are on the same branch.

SJ

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Also, those two different communities won't show up with horns and tails, just like non-Africans wouldn't show up with horns, wings and tails and face tentacles.

The purged humans in my example where just more feeble / longer limbed no horns no fur just a bit stretched due to low grav that's all. Man has changed more from going out of Africa then that.

They were also detected by a computer to be non-human. A computer just reads the data. It wasn't like the BT was a racist, he was doing his job. If its not human, purge it. The computer will tell you what is and isn't acceptable.

 Deadshot wrote:
It wasn't like the BT was a racist, he was doing his job..

Would you be so kind to translate that sentence for in Dutch or German ; )

But in all seriousness. It was not a computer, there was no scanner it was just the Black Templay saying " Non-standard human phenotype identified. Loathe the mutant. Terminate." when he entered the door and before he started slaughtering them all. The story later on shows just how nasty black templars really are compared to the good guy of the story.

Good Guy: ‘Is this true ?
Black templar: a number of aberrants,’ (his contempt plainly audible through the distortions of his vox-grille). ‘Non-standard humanoid phenotype. They did not deserve clemency.’
Good guy: No human is to be harmed, no matter their type, not before you report to me.’
Black templar: ‘As you wish, Chapter Master,’ (said Arbalt emotionlessly.)
Good Guy: ‘Convey this information to all your fellows,’ (he said angrily.) ‘While you are under my command I will not countenance the needless slaying of innocents.’
Black templar:( gave an awkward bow, his movements restricted by his suit.) ‘My lord Chapter Master.’


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Face it the consequence of playing in a grim dark dystopian nightmare setting is that a large portion of your tabletop heroes are evil bastards in the fluff.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
It wasn't like the BT was a racist, he was doing his job..

Would you be so kind to translate that sentence for in Dutch or German ; )

But in all seriousness. It was not a computer, there was no scanner it was just the Black Templay saying " Non-standard human phenotype identified. Loathe the mutant. Terminate." when he entered the door and before he started slaughtering them all. The story later on shows just how nasty black templars really are compared to the good guy of the story.

Good Guy: ‘Is this true ?
Black templar: a number of aberrants,’ (his contempt plainly audible through the distortions of his vox-grille). ‘Non-standard humanoid phenotype. They did not deserve clemency.’
Good guy: No human is to be harmed, no matter their type, not before you report to me.’
Black templar: ‘As you wish, Chapter Master,’ (said Arbalt emotionlessly.)
Good Guy: ‘Convey this information to all your fellows,’ (he said angrily.) ‘While you are under my command I will not countenance the needless slaying of innocents.’
Black templar:( gave an awkward bow, his movements restricted by his suit.) ‘My lord Chapter Master.’


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Face it the consequence of playing in a grim dark dystopian nightmare setting is that a large portion of your tabletop heroes are evil bastards in the fluff.

I really don't appreciate the comparison, but its not the same. One is killing of other humans for petty reasons such as skin colour. The other is eradication of a mutant threat. There is nothing similar about them at all. The "good guy" you mention and the BT obviously see differently on what's acceptable and not, and it goes without saying the BT are less compromising on the matter, but at the end of the day they weren't human, they were "non-standard humanoid phenotype." Traits which can also be given to Eldar. Which are a dangerous threat to humans.

The eradication of a mutant threat... What a bright and revolutionary idea.

But seriously if you don't see the connection you should really read up on Eugenics. They might not have taught about it in your history class but it was quite popular in the US and GB and the rest of the world for a moment in time and had a huge impact on that whole era of time.

This might be a good start
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_eugenics