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To be quite honest - they really aren't even a competitive choice. No nerf required. Their stats do seem overpowered but their limited range - and expensive transport options make them too much of an investment for a suicide squad.

Also - WG are not better at killing vehicals really - maybe titans but ap0 is pretty effective at popping tanks.

Str D is not competitive? Can I have some of whatever you're having?

Doesn't matter what they cost, point them at something and it will die.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Doesn't matter what they cost, point them at something and it will die.

That's why they aren't that OP. In order to "point them at something" you have to spent tons of points. Even then they drop, vaporize their target, then die.

What's a ton of points again? 120 for a Serpent that will get them there or a couple of Archons with WWP that you spent some minimum Kalabites to sit on an objective for?

Don't pretend it's a chore to get them where they need to be, at least.

Made them slow and purposeful in my houserules unless joined by a psyker. That and my general nerf of strD (6 does d3+3 hullpoints/wounds instead of d6+6) and they don't scare all the big units anymore.

People like big models, there should be counters for said models to keep the game (somewhat) even. There shouldn't be HARD counters that cost half the price. Eliminate the "lucky 6" and a lot of the issues fall away.

I don't think they need changing as they aren't especially hard to kill. Unless you heavily invest in Psychic support for them they are somewhat of a glass cannon.

More generally, I would nerf a 6 result on the D table but that's a different issue.

At 33 PPM? Maybe changing them 40 PPM at most if you think they're too powerful, remember that they are T6 but only 3+ armour, no invul and 1 W with 12" or less weapons. More importantly the new F&Q (although still pending) makes them unable to deploy in allied transports and if their transport jinks they have to snap fire.

They have no access to drop pod like transports so a mass Alpha strike isn't a viable option for them and a wave serpent with the guard costs upward of 275 points or 320 for the dreaded D-scythes. Both builds are easily dealt with grav weaponry (which I do not believe is downgraded by the serpent shield as it's not a pen) or by the Tau infiltration cadre.

D weapons in that quantity maybe OP but in reality they have very poor delivery options now outside of the WWP, but I think that's a problem in and of itself.

Yeah, WWP is a problem for balancing CWE's short range infantry in general, and Wraithguard specifically.

Lyth makes great houserules it seems. I wouldn't personally make a Psyker aleviate SnP, but it would make sense.

Perhaps a part of the problem is the rise Riptides and friends, where Melta isnt nearly as deadly as it should be.

If Melta did d3 wounds, would Wraithguard still feel OP?

(An actual question - not rhetoric.)

Bharring wrote:
Yeah, WWP is a problem for balancing CWE's short range infantry in general, and Wraithguard specifically.

Lyth makes great houserules it seems. I wouldn't personally make a Psyker aleviate SnP, but it would make sense.

Perhaps a part of the problem is the rise Riptides and friends, where Melta isnt nearly as deadly as it should be.

If Melta did d3 wounds, would Wraithguard still feel OP?

(An actual question - not rhetoric.)

Yes, I think the D-scythe version would, simply because those auto-hit and have Ignores Cover. Wraithcannons would be fine relative to meltas that inflict d3 wounds. In fact, I think those would get everyone bitching about Crisis Suits, Fire Dragons and Dominions. (Which is not to say it's a bad idea per se, and I like the idea that AP1 should do something more to non-vehicles than AP2 does)

I'm still gonna push for all Distort weapons being D -1, and Scythes D -2. It makes D-spamming much more palatable in non-Apoc games, while still making them "good".
Afterall, the old WK & WG used to just have Str 10 guns, which could only hurt AV13 on a 3+, or AV14 on a 4+. D -1 only makes them weaker vs AV10/11 (which the rest of the army has no problem dealing with) when compared to Str 10, but so does straight D, since str10 auto Pens AV10, and doesn't cant fail to at least glance AV11. And causing D3 wounds/HPs or even outright Insta-gibbing T5 or less models is still amazing.

If anyone remembers the 4th/5th ed WG rules, the Distort had its own chart. 1-2 did nothing, 3-4 caused a glance, 5-6 cuased a Pen. D -1 is the BEST compromise between this rule, straight D, and Str 10.
And 6th ed Scythes used to be Str4, so D -2 wounds the same against T4 and still better than Str4 vs T5+. And ignores FNP.

------------
On SnP. I'm only 50/50 with this rule. On the surface it makes sense, but then when I think about it, they kinda already are....for Eldar standards. Basic Eldar are I5 with Fleet. Becoming I4 with no Fleet is pretty much SnP for them. But then again, Dark Reapers have SnP for...reasons, so Why not make WG SnP (but you'd have the WraithHost replace SnP w/ Battle Focus within a set range of the Spiritseer)

--

The big reason for SnP is not the "no running" part, but the "no overwatch" part. Overwatch with multiple AP2 template weapons is pretty terrifying, even if they're just S3, say. D-1 or D-2 is nasty.

The Wraith Host could replace SnP with Relentless.

WG arent just SnP "for Eldar". They're supposed to be SnP from a general/IoM perspective.

Perhaps the D-1 on Scythes should also reduce wounds inflicted?

 Torus wrote:
At 33 PPM? Maybe changing them 40 PPM at most if you think they're too powerful, remember that they are T6 but only 3+ armour, no invul and 1 W with 12" or less weapons. More importantly the new F&Q (although still pending) makes them unable to deploy in allied transports and if their transport jinks they have to snap fire.

They have no access to drop pod like transports so a mass Alpha strike isn't a viable option for them and a wave serpent with the guard costs upward of 275 points or 320 for the dreaded D-scythes. Both builds are easily dealt with grav weaponry (which I do not believe is downgraded by the serpent shield as it's not a pen) or by the Tau infiltration cadre.

D weapons in that quantity maybe OP but in reality they have very poor delivery options now outside of the WWP, but I think that's a problem in and of itself.

What did the FAQ do to make them snapshot?

The FAQ clarified that if a transport jinks, its passengers must snap-fire.

jade_angel wrote:
The FAQ clarified that if a transport jinks, its passengers must snap-fire.

This alone makes taking D-Scyhes in Serpents less OP. Combine with not being able to deploy in a DE Raider to Deep strike, and you're left with only 1 option: WWP. In order to fit a WWP in, you need to spend points on the Archon, 1 Troop and either an Autarch or Comms relay for reserve manipulation. The overall points investment will be over 400pts, and still might not kill an IK on the drop. Is this still a good option? Heck yeah, but it's not OP since it is only a counter to big targets, whose points are about equal. If your army is MSU, or lacks a Super Heavy or Deathstar, you really don't care about WG.

--

Bharring wrote:
Yeah, WWP is a problem for balancing CWE's short range infantry in general, and Wraithguard specifically.

Lyth makes great houserules it seems. I wouldn't personally make a Psyker aleviate SnP, but it would make sense.

Perhaps a part of the problem is the rise Riptides and friends, where Melta isnt nearly as deadly as it should be.

If Melta did d3 wounds, would Wraithguard still feel OP?

(An actual question - not rhetoric.)

Actually ap1 weapons get to "wound again" if they successfully caused an unsaved wound to a monstrous creature, and ordinance weapons cause d3 to monsters as well with my houserules. Let's blast weapons actually threaten monsters and makes melta weapons/ rail weapons a viable threat as well.

Edit: what the crap phone, write what I say!

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Yeah, WWP is a problem for balancing CWE's short range infantry in general, and Wraithguard specifically.

Lyth makes great houserules it seems. I wouldn't personally make a Psyker aleviate SnP, but it would make sense.

Perhaps a part of the problem is the rise Riptides and friends, where Melta isnt nearly as deadly as it should be.

If Melta did d3 wounds, would Wraithguard still feel OP?

(An actual question - not rhetoric.)

Actually ap1 weapons get to "wound again" if they successfully caused an unsaved wound to a monstrous creature, and ordinance weapons cause d3 to monsters as well with my houserules. Let's blast weapons actually threaten monsters and makes melta weapons/ rail weapons a viable threat as well.

Edit: what the crap phone, write what I say!

I like the idea of Ap1 and Ordinance weapons causing D3 wounds to MCs, although I feel like they should do this for all multi-wound models, not just MCs. It would bring Melta weapons back into fashion for Marines and makes Ordinance more multi purpose.

 Galef wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Yeah, WWP is a problem for balancing CWE's short range infantry in general, and Wraithguard specifically.

Lyth makes great houserules it seems. I wouldn't personally make a Psyker aleviate SnP, but it would make sense.

Perhaps a part of the problem is the rise Riptides and friends, where Melta isnt nearly as deadly as it should be.

If Melta did d3 wounds, would Wraithguard still feel OP?

(An actual question - not rhetoric.)

Actually ap1 weapons get to "wound again" if they successfully caused an unsaved wound to a monstrous creature, and ordinance weapons cause d3 to monsters as well with my houserules. Let's blast weapons actually threaten monsters and makes melta weapons/ rail weapons a viable threat as well.

Edit: what the crap phone, write what I say!

I like the idea of Ap1 and Ordinance weapons causing D3 wounds to MCs, although I feel like they should do this for all multi-wound models, not just MCs. It would bring Melta weapons back into fashion for Marines and makes Ordinance more multi purpose.

Also fixed some of that due to a rule causing units with improved toughness to count as the original toughness for the purposes of instant death (like in 5th ed) meaning thunderwolves and bikes are instant deathed by meltas, missiles, and lascannons again.

I have a thread in here this one if you wanna talk there...

 Torus wrote:
At 33 PPM? Maybe changing them 40 PPM at most if you think they're too powerful, remember that they are T6 but only 3+ armour, no invul and 1 W with 12" or less weapons. More importantly the new F&Q (although still pending) makes them unable to deploy in allied transports and if their transport jinks they have to snap fire.

They have no access to drop pod like transports so a mass Alpha strike isn't a viable option for them and a wave serpent with the guard costs upward of 275 points or 320 for the dreaded D-scythes. Both builds are easily dealt with grav weaponry (which I do not believe is downgraded by the serpent shield as it's not a pen) or by the Tau infiltration cadre.

D weapons in that quantity maybe OP but in reality they have very poor delivery options now outside of the WWP, but I think that's a problem in and of itself.

Only an Eldar player would consider a T6 model with a 3+ save to be a "Glass Cannon"

I'll gladly trade my Mega Nobz for WraithGuard, I could use some D-FLamers.

"Only" T6 3+ save shows how crazy the game has gotten.

 Galef wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Yeah, WWP is a problem for balancing CWE's short range infantry in general, and Wraithguard specifically.

Lyth makes great houserules it seems. I wouldn't personally make a Psyker aleviate SnP, but it would make sense.

Perhaps a part of the problem is the rise Riptides and friends, where Melta isnt nearly as deadly as it should be.

If Melta did d3 wounds, would Wraithguard still feel OP?

(An actual question - not rhetoric.)

Actually ap1 weapons get to "wound again" if they successfully caused an unsaved wound to a monstrous creature, and ordinance weapons cause d3 to monsters as well with my houserules. Let's blast weapons actually threaten monsters and makes melta weapons/ rail weapons a viable threat as well.

Edit: what the crap phone, write what I say!

I like the idea of Ap1 and Ordinance weapons causing D3 wounds to MCs, although I feel like they should do this for all multi-wound models, not just MCs. It would bring Melta weapons back into fashion for Marines and makes Ordinance more multi purpose.

It's a great idea. If my group would implement it I would not oppose it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Torus wrote:
At 33 PPM? Maybe changing them 40 PPM at most if you think they're too powerful, remember that they are T6 but only 3+ armour, no invul and 1 W with 12" or less weapons. More importantly the new F&Q (although still pending) makes them unable to deploy in allied transports and if their transport jinks they have to snap fire.

They have no access to drop pod like transports so a mass Alpha strike isn't a viable option for them and a wave serpent with the guard costs upward of 275 points or 320 for the dreaded D-scythes. Both builds are easily dealt with grav weaponry (which I do not believe is downgraded by the serpent shield as it's not a pen) or by the Tau infiltration cadre.

D weapons in that quantity maybe OP but in reality they have very poor delivery options now outside of the WWP, but I think that's a problem in and of itself.

Only an Eldar player would consider a T6 model with a 3+ save to be a "Glass Cannon"

I'll gladly trade my Mega Nobz for WraithGuard, I could use some D-FLamers.

How do you get them there? 120 point transport that has to jink meaning you are worthless next turn with 275 points plus? Or take a DE ally. With a worthless archon tax unit and a useless troop. I think I'll just take a wraith knight instead - or 4 hornets - or 2 warp hunters.

The Serpent is never going to jink.

The Wraithguard will survive any wreck, and Seprents are fast enough to get them there near cover.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Serpent is never going to jink.

The Wraithguard will survive any wreck, and Seprents are fast enough to get them there near cover.

Your solution is to sacrifice a 120 point tank to drop a suicide unit short of it's intended target? I've tried it - it doesn't work.

Let's not lose sight of just how many tournament winning Eldar lists have included D-Scythes. Oh, that's right, none of them!

Wraithguard with D-scythes are a good unit, there is no doubt, but at the end of the day there are factors that hinder their usefulness. On paper they look OP as heck, but in practice they are very hit-or-miss.
If your opponent brought a big target or death star, they can be useful, or an expensive suicide squad
If your opponent doesn't have big targets, good luck getting their points worth.
What it is called when good units/rules have limits? It starts with a "B".....

.....Balanced
-

 Galef wrote:
Let's not lose sight of just how many tournament winning Eldar lists have included D-Scythes. Oh, that's right, none of them!

Wraithguard with D-scythes are a good unit, there is no doubt, but at the end of the day there are factors that hinder their usefulness. On paper they look OP as heck, but in practice they are very hit-or-miss.
If your opponent brought a big target or death star, they can be useful, or an expensive suicide squad
If your opponent doesn't have big targets, good luck getting their points worth.
What it is called when good units/rules have limits? It starts with a "B".....

.....Balanced
-

agree with this 100%. It's actually the standard wraith cannon WG that I find more useful. But they require a whole list built around them. Eldrad/ warhost/ wraithhost/ Asurman. Then you still need your enemy to have a lot of big targets to justify an 800 point GOI deleting a unit a turn.

With the recent restriction of not being able to deploy in battle brothers transports - is it even possible to deep strike wraithguard D flamers now? Can wave serpents deep strike?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
With the recent restriction of not being able to deploy in battle brothers transports - is it even possible to deep strike wraithguard D flamers now? Can wave serpents deep strike?

No Serpents cannot deep strike anymore. You used to be able to put a WWP Archon in the Serpent with the WG, but the FAQ stopped that.
DE Raiders can deep strike too, but no one was doing that before the FAQ because the transport capacity prevented an Archon from joining them for "precision" deep strike.

If players were deep striking D-flamers, they weren't using a Transport before the FAQ, so nothing changed really.
You can still just join a WWP Archon to the WG for no-scatter Deep strike, but as mentioned before, that's a minimum 345pts investment for a unit that gets 1 turn of shooting, either killing it's target and then dying to the retaliation, or doing nothing and then dying. Even if you cannot kill the WG, you can just move away from them.

Even assaulting them is easy. You only need 2 units to assault them, 1 to absorb the Wall of Death, the other to actually get into CC and wreck/tie up the WG.

-

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Serpent is never going to jink.

The Wraithguard will survive any wreck, and Seprents are fast enough to get them there near cover.

Your solution is to sacrifice a 120 point tank to drop a suicide unit short of it's intended target? I've tried it - it doesn't work.

120 to ensure something is dead? All you have to do is drop them in cover, and the T6 will do the rest. Who cares at that point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Let's not lose sight of just how many tournament winning Eldar lists have included D-Scythes. Oh, that's right, none of them!

Wraithguard with D-scythes are a good unit, there is no doubt, but at the end of the day there are factors that hinder their usefulness. On paper they look OP as heck, but in practice they are very hit-or-miss.
If your opponent brought a big target or death star, they can be useful, or an expensive suicide squad
If your opponent doesn't have big targets, good luck getting their points worth.
What it is called when good units/rules have limits? It starts with a "B".....

.....Balanced
-

Your logic sucks.

How many winning lists have things like Revenant Titans? How many people consider those balanced?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Let's not lose sight of just how many tournament winning Eldar lists have included D-Scythes. Oh, that's right, none of them!

Wraithguard with D-scythes are a good unit, there is no doubt, but at the end of the day there are factors that hinder their usefulness. On paper they look OP as heck, but in practice they are very hit-or-miss.
If your opponent brought a big target or death star, they can be useful, or an expensive suicide squad
If your opponent doesn't have big targets, good luck getting their points worth.
What it is called when good units/rules have limits? It starts with a "B".....

.....Balanced
-

agree with this 100%. It's actually the standard wraith cannon WG that I find more useful. But they require a whole list built around them. Eldrad/ warhost/ wraithhost/ Asurman. Then you still need your enemy to have a lot of big targets to justify an 800 point GOI deleting a unit a turn.

Only an Eldar Player would consider an INFANTRY model with T6 3+ save and a D WEAPON that only costs 32 points to be "balanced".

In the Eldar codex they aren't auto-includes in tournaments because you guys have all sorts of other broken cheese to pull from. In almost every other codex they would be an auto include.

But lets use Galef's logic here. You have a 210pt unit that has the ability to eliminate any threat on the board, it has to be carried in a 120pt transport, but when it gets there it kills whatever its shooting at and has T6 and 3+ armor to soak up firepower for a turn and act as a giant distraction for the rest of your army.

For my orks I can take 5 Meganobz for 200pts and put them in a 110pt transport (135-165 depending on upgrades) that is a Tank and is slower and doesn't have nearly as much Survivability as the Eldar (Cheaper) equivalent. I have a better save then your Wraithguard, I have 2 wounds per model instead of 1 but I also have -2 Toughness and can be doubled out by most weapons that have AP2. If I take that tank and run it forward as fast as possible at a target I have a slight chance of getting close enough to its target that when it explodes my Meganobz can walk to their target. When my Meganobz get into CC (they have no shooting worth mentioning) they have 15 CC attacks or 20 on the charge at S8-9. That equates to about 7-8 hits at S9, definitely fearsome but not nearly as devastating as a D flamer or D cannon. If they manage to kill their target they are left exposed for a full turn of shooting, and at T4 they tend to die to everything the same way terminators do.

Mega Nobz in an Ork army are one of the BEST units we have, WraithGuard are better then they are. So what your telling us in essence is that what Eldar consider balanced the Orks consider the best units in our codex.

What makes a unit balanced is more than just how much it can kill vs it's durability and points cost. It also has to do with how it does it and can it repeat that action more than once per game. WG are far from a "guaranteed delete button", unless, of course, the opponent facing them has
A) never heard of them and thus will get surprised,
B) is incompetent and needs to L2P or
C) is unfortunate enough to be playing one ot the codexes that are in sore need on updating (like Orks, Dark Eldar or CSM)

They are, at best, a 1-trick pony. Granted that 1 trick is a dang good trick, but they pay for it.

Give me any average power lever army vs WG with D-scythes in a Serpent and 9 out of 10 games, I can minimize the damage potential of those WG by simple tactics.
Kill the serpent (it's AV12, surely you can do 3 HPs to AV12 at range). But their using an Archon you say? Easy, spread out your forces and bublewrap your big targets. they drop, kill less than half of their 300+ pts cost, then you either move away, or kill them. In any case, they aren't using those flamers again in this game.

I'm not trying to say they are a not a great unit, but they are much closer to balanced in practice than they appear to be in imagination-hammer. A further -1 to all Distort weapons is all that would be needed to balance WG, WK, etc. AP2 Flamers that wound on 4+ are basically what they did in 6th ed, and no one took them.

--