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In the same vain as the scatbike/WK thread.

I think most people agree that wraith guard are way too strong for the point cost. I've come up with a few ideas for nerfs but I would like to hear what others suggest as well.

1- Make their weapons heavy 1 instead of assault 1. The most extreme nerf. Gives whatever they are shooting at a turn after disembarking to mow them down/get away before they can do damage.
2- Up their points cost, say 60ppm and 15 for the d-scythe. Not something I'm in favor of, would make the squad 375 and they still die easily to plasma/pieplates.
3- nerf their guns' strength. D is just too strong for an infantry weapon. Make the wraithcannons S10 , and the D-scythes S6.

Nerfing the weapon and adjusting the points cost are both fine with me. They both end up at a place where you get what you are paying for.

WraithGuard with wraithcannons are fine as is, maybe bump them up to 40ppm as they are slightly worse than Terminators but have way better guns. Then make D-Scythes 15pt upgrades.
You can't change the weapon profile from D because nothing represents opening up a rift in the Warp as well as D. At best you could alter the AP to 3 for D-scythes since they are "dispersed"

I would also like to see them be able to mix weapons, as having to upgrade all cannons to scythes is kinda silly. Same goes with WraithBlades, who should be able to mix melee weapons

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Just give the weapons their old stats back. No reason we have to utterly kill the usefulness of the unit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Just give the weapons their old stats back. No reason we have to utterly kill the usefulness of the unit.

Do you think S6 AP 2 flamers would be useless? They would still murder heavy infantry.

My vote is for giving them back their old 6e rules. S6 AP2 templates are terrifying, even without Distort, and against some targets would actually be more dangerous than the current mini-D template. For example, against most MEQs, where S6 wounds on a 2+, while mini-D wounds on a 3+, and both ignore armor and cover and permit invulnerable saves. Mini-D always ignores FNP, though, while T4+ creatures would still get FNP against the S6 version.

So, R12 S10 AP2 Assault 1, Distort for Wraithcannons, and R Template S4 AP2 Assault 1, Distort for D-Scythes.

 Galef wrote:
WraithGuard with wraithcannons are fine as is, maybe bump them up to 40ppm as they are slightly worse than Terminators but have way better guns. Then make D-Scythes 15pt upgrades.
You can't change the weapon profile from D because nothing represents opening up a rift in the Warp as well as D. At best you could alter the AP to 3 for D-scythes since they are "dispersed"

I would also like to see them be able to mix weapons, as having to upgrade all cannons to scythes is kinda silly. Same goes with WraithBlades, who should be able to mix melee weapons

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There are a lot of things that don't fit the fluff. I think game balance is more important then fluff/crunch parity.

lusciifi wrote:

 Galef wrote:
WraithGuard with wraithcannons are fine as is, maybe bump them up to 40ppm as they are slightly worse than Terminators but have way better guns. Then make D-Scythes 15pt upgrades.
You can't change the weapon profile from D because nothing represents opening up a rift in the Warp as well as D. At best you could alter the AP to 3 for D-scythes since they are "dispersed"

I would also like to see them be able to mix weapons, as having to upgrade all cannons to scythes is kinda silly. Same goes with WraithBlades, who should be able to mix melee weapons

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There are a lot of things that don't fit the fluff. I think game balance is more important then fluff/crunch parity.

Agreed, but when something DOES fit the fluff, there are other ways to balance them while keeping them fluffy. Like D-1 for ALL Distort weapons (including the WK), and D-2 for Scythes (at 15ppm upgrade)

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+SnP
+Cannot join or be joined by models who are not CWE

Thatd fix them.

The most easily agreed upon fix is to instead use the 6E codex rules for their weapons, but the above suits them better.

Bharring wrote:
+SnP
+Cannot join or be joined by models who are not CWE

Thatd fix them.

At first I had no idea why you'd suggest SnP, then I remember: No overwatch. I'd agree with that change. It also has the feel of the old WraithSight rule.

Although the more I think about it, the more I like Distort is D -1, Scythes are D -2. It fixes more than just WraithGuard, doesn't require points changes or additional rules (just changes to existing rules) and keeps them fluffy. As a bonus, the Scythes only wounding on 4's makes them feel more like the 6th ed versions too.

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Yeah that makes sense. But without SnP, one of the scariest parts of Wraithguard are when Scythe units overwatch. Shouldnt a Demon Prince charging into CC with Wraithguard mean dead Wraithguard? Further, the Wraithguard are one of the most thematically slow and purposeful units in the game. They really should feel that way on the tabletop. Such as no running. And CC is their doom, not their second shooting phase.

The joining bit is because there is no way a Craftworld is going to hand some of their sacred Honored Dead over to some ambitious Archon or juvinile Corsair. On a fluff level, that just wouldnt happen. On a balance level, both WWP and Shadowfields in T6 units are problems.

D-2 by itself I think would still leave them too strong if they can come in on a WWP.

Compare them to the DE option, medusae, S4 AP3 flamers for 25ppm. I think going from S4->(D-2), T3->T6 and 5+->3+ is only worth 17ppm.

Thats why i think a real fix needs to address WWP.

If a whole unit of Wraithguard shoot at a model, that model dies. Thats how it should be. It seems like they should therefore be hard to get into position. The WWP makes it a nonissue.

Bharring wrote:
Thats why i think a real fix needs to address WWP.

If a whole unit of Wraithguard shoot at a model, that model dies. Thats how it should be. It seems like they should therefore be hard to get into position. The WWP makes it a nonissue.

Perhaps just give the WWP the same restriction as starting on transports between battlebrothers i.e you cant.

BTW, Do you think that things like gate of infinity with wraith-guard are fine because it scatters or is this tactic over the top as well.

Id rather they couldnt use it, but specifying that they cannot gets a little complicated.

I think people are overreacting, Wraithguard hit real hard but are a glass cannon, it's pretty easy to take down a unit in a single turn of shooting.

 Imateria wrote:
I think people are overreacting, Wraithguard hit real hard but are a glass cannon, it's pretty easy to take down a unit in a single turn of shooting.

Well that depends on terrain. If you come in exactly where you want with a WWP you can hide them and still hit your target. And even if the squad gets wiped the next turn it can make its points back in one round of shooting so it has already done its job by the time you can retaliate.

Bharring wrote:
+SnP
+Cannot join or be joined by models who are not CWE

Thatd fix them.

The most easily agreed upon fix is to instead use the 6E codex rules for their weapons, but the above suits them better.

Let's add to that: "May not embark on transports," and you'll have my full agreement.

 Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:
+SnP
+Cannot join or be joined by models who are not CWE

Thatd fix them.

The most easily agreed upon fix is to instead use the 6E codex rules for their weapons, but the above suits them better.

Let's add to that: "May not embark on transports," and you'll have my full agreement.

Transports still have a counter. You can move 6, get out 6 and have an 8in template. 20in threat range is a lot less scary then an infinite one.

Give them SnP d-1 and d-2 and that should fix most of the issues with them.

 NorseSig wrote:
Give them SnP d-1 and d-2 and that should fix most of the issues with them.

I agree. Maybe enough of a nerf to lower the price to an even 30ppm like Wraithblades, instead of the random 32ppm currently

6th ed book rules.Just do that. It's so much easier than making new stuff up.

pm713 wrote:
6th ed book rules.Just do that. It's so much easier than making new stuff up.

I would only do that if using the entire 6th ed codex (which isn't that bad since it fixes Windriders & WK too). I don't like cherry picking between editions. Unfortunately, that means better Wave Serpents

 Galef wrote:

pm713 wrote:
6th ed book rules.Just do that. It's so much easier than making new stuff up.

I would only do that if using the entire 6th ed codex (which isn't that bad since it fixes Windriders & WK too). I don't like cherry picking between editions. Unfortunately, that means better Wave Serpents

Why not? It fixes the problem and saves all the faff of making up a new rule. I don't why taking decent rules from an old book to fix an issue requires taking the rest of the book.

in 6th and 7th Wraithguard was largely irrelevant until CWE dropped and the D shitstorm began.


Nerf D Strength outside of Apoc and Wraithguard it's no longer a threat aside the odd vehicle MC, caught in the open.

furthermore Change the Freaking Wraith host formation to give FNP instead battle focus (because wraith should be durable not friggin ninjas perma running 6" with doomsday weapons) and if further issues arise change the Spiritseer rule so instead grant re-rolls at units attacking enemies at 18" of him allow friendly formation units at 18" to use it's WS or BS when resolving attacks.


P.S: D-scythes are STR 4 not STR 10 neither STR 6, it's again the D-strength shenanigans not the weapon per se.

D is fine in small doses. The Tau gargantuan is a perfect example - it's got access to D, but only under certain circumstances - 4 shots with ML support or within 10" of the target. Eldar D should be the same. If Wraiths were only D on a hit roll of 6, for example, that'd go a long way to fixing the problem.

With Slow and Purposefull, no allies/transport shenanigans, and a 12" range with 6" movement, how many points would they be worth with D (the Cannon, not the Scythe)?

Bharring wrote:
With Slow and Purposefull, no allies/transport shenanigans, and a 12" range with 6" movement, how many points would they be worth with D (the Cannon, not the Scythe)?

You mean if they cant get in transports at all? They would probably need a points reduction at that point, 25ppm?

Get rid of the D-scythes. The D-cannon is fine. It at least rolls to hit and cover works.

A point about Strength D Wraithcannons that nobody's mentioned yet: it's not that they're OP, exactly, so much as that it's an internal balance issue.

In the 6e book, Wraithguard had S10 AP2 ID-on-6 weapons, while Fire Dragons had S8 AP1 Melta weapons, both R12. Accordingly, Wraithguard were better at killing Monstrous Creatures, while Fire Dragons were better at killing Vehicles. Now, with D, Wraithguard are mostly better at everything. Dragons are now just faster (but not in the Wraith Host!) and cheaper; both are Elites. With the nerf to meltabombs, that's only become more true, and the Wraithguard, with S5/T6, are better against anything that can't be meltabombed, even in CC.

Now, I like Fire Dragons. They might be my favorite Aspect. I'm even one of those kookamundos who goes out of my way to buy a Falcon just to stuff some Fire Dragons in it and go two-way-tank-whacking. But as it stands, only the Aspect Host formation really makes Dragons worth taking (and then, there are Warp Spiders...) I'd really like it to be a hard decision, not a no-brainer.