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 jeffersonian000 wrote:
To address the OP, the detached Drones are not listed as a unit in the formation, and therefore are not subject to the formation's special rules.

Dedicated Transports are not listed as a unit in the Formation, but are subject to the formation's special rules. The Attached Drones are purchased as part of a unit in the Formation, and that's where the rub is.

Could the same be said of one of a Codex Marine's Combat Squads when they are decided to split? It is a completely new unit at that time, and one not technically listed as part of the Formation.

 Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
To address the OP, the detached Drones are not listed as a unit in the formation, and therefore are not subject to the formation's special rules.

Dedicated Transports are not listed as a unit in the Formation, but are subject to the formation's special rules. The Attached Drones are purchased as part of a unit in the Formation, and that's where the rub is.

Could the same be said of one of a Codex Marine's Combat Squads when they are decided to split? It is a completely new unit at that time, and one not technically listed as part of the Formation.

You would need the find permission. Dedicated Transports have only recently been ruled to benefit from detachment special rules, there have been no such rulings in the case of detached Drones. Given the differences between the units, it would not be a straight comparison. Detached Drones are much closer to conjured units than purhased unit upgrades.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

You would need the find permission. Dedicated Transports have only recently been ruled to benefit from detachment special rules, there have been no such rulings in the case of detached Drones. Given the differences between the units, it would not be a straight comparison. Detached Drones are much closer to conjured units than purhased unit upgrades.

No, they haven't. Dedicated Transports have had rules putting them in Formations that the units they are purchased with are from since at least the current rulebook dropped. Only the most obstinate refused to acknowledge the connections (or deny the purchase in the first place).

And no, this is not like conjured units. Conjured units are not purchased, and capacity to do so is determined after the army list is created while generating the Warp Powers. Khorne Summoned units have to be earned. In addition, these models are not on the board or part of the game until the other conditions are passed. Detached Drones, though, are purchased as part of the unit they come on, and that capacity to create a new unit is part of the deal, and all they have to do is Disembark and they are there.

Combat squads are split before deployment.

Detached drones create a whole new unit(possibly out of several pseudounits) out of the wargear models.

That is also where vehicle drone are odd: they are wargear that are models that are also not models in the unit and until detached are not individual models at all.

Transport capacity says you cannot split a unit up among multiple transports(even in the same unit); a unit of 2 vehicles with gun drones act as 2 separate transports for the attached gun drones; so each pair must act as its own "unit" of passengers. If 2 vehicles in a unit function this way; then a unit of 1 vehicle would be the same. With the 2 vehicles, if you detach, all 4 drones create the new unit of drones. Again, if that is how it works for 2 vehicles it is the same for 1 because nothing tells us otherwise.

And, yes SJ, DTs have always been part of the formation that they were bought for; the FAQ just confirmed this.

Drones and the unit they create are still different from DTs though; the DT unit has existed since list creation. Drones are also different from combat squads; which are created before deployment.

It pains me to read responses to my post, when the responders appear to not have actually read my post. I said Dedicated Transports have only recently be granted permission to benefit from detachment special rules. This has been a debated question for years, and only laid to rest with the recent FAQ releases. Yes, there are detachments and formations that include DTs in the verbiage, but there also ones that don't. Currently, all DTs are covered.

And I stated that the comparison of similar units to detached Drones is closer to conjured units than to DTs. I did not say detached Drones are conjured units. Please actually read the post before responding falsly to it.

SJ

Kommissar Kel wrote:Combat squads are split before deployment.

And create new units after Army List Building, which was the point. Before Deployment, after Deployment, doesn't really matter for this case, since it is after the case of purchasing units for the Detachments.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Detached drones create a whole new unit(possibly out of several pseudounits) out of the wargear models.

That is also where vehicle drone are odd: they are wargear that are models that are also not models in the unit and until detached are not individual models at all.

Transport capacity says you cannot split a unit up among multiple transports(even in the same unit); a unit of 2 vehicles with gun drones act as 2 separate transports for the attached gun drones; so each pair must act as its own "unit" of passengers. If 2 vehicles in a unit function this way; then a unit of 1 vehicle would be the same. With the 2 vehicles, if you detach, all 4 drones create the new unit of drones. Again, if that is how it works for 2 vehicles it is the same for 1 because nothing tells us otherwise.

Thank you for recognizing what I was saying. I am not actually wholly convinced of it, I am just saying there is sufficient room of doubt to say nothing is final on it at this time.

jeffersonian000 wrote:It pains me to read responses to my post, when the responders appear to not have actually read my post. I said Dedicated Transports have only recently be granted permission to benefit from detachment special rules. This has been a debated question for years, and only laid to rest with the recent FAQ releases. Yes, there are detachments and formations that include DTs in the verbiage, but there also ones that don't. Currently, all DTs are covered.

And I stated that the comparison of similar units to detached Drones is closer to conjured units than to DTs. I did not say detached Drones are conjured units. Please actually read the post before responding falsly to it.

You do realize what you are accusing me of, you are doing yourself?

Yes, I know it has been debated for years, but that didn't make the debate pointless. I should also point out that the "recent ruling" isn't even live and could change. My point that I stated in there was that there was no real meat to any counter of the discussion. Dedicated Transports have a whole host of rules addressing this that people ignored when they present these arguments. Dedicated Transports do not take up a Slot and are available as part of another unit's purchase. The Disembarked Attached Drones also do not take up a slot (largely because it's unit isn't existing when it is purchased) and are available as part of another unit's purchase without relying on random chance or in game resource building.

You said that they are MORE similar to conjured units than to Dedicated Transports, to which I disagreed and gave the points why I thought so. So, please actually read the post and points before responding condescendingly to it.

Looks like I hit a nerve. My apologies.

SJ

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] Obviously nothing being said is being taken as an explanation. TAU Faq just provided all the answers on this. You actually have a great formation now for your Piranha's.