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I'm a bit confused about the rage and hate^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H friendly discussion regarding the Firestream Wing.

Saith the codex:

If all the surviving models from a unit in this Formation...

Shouldn't this include both the drones and their host vehicles? Why wouldn't the surviving drones also need to be within 6 inches of the table edge and enter Ongoing Reserves along with their surviving Piranhas?

Detached drones are not models in that unit; they form their own unit, with hookers, and blackjack.

I don't see why that matters.

Surviving? Check.
A model? Check.
From a unit in that formation? Check.

Not a unit in that formation. Check.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Not a unit in that formation. Check.

How is it not a unit in that formation?

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Not a unit in that formation. Check.

How is it not a unit in that formation?

Uh, it says in the formation what belong to the formation. Please look it up.

Additionally the vehicle drone rules are very clear on this subject.

Naw wrote:
Uh, it says in the formation what belong to the formation. Please look it up.

So you don't include the Drones on the Piranhas when you make the Formation?

Naw wrote:
Additionally the vehicle drone rules are very clear on this subject.

Which Drone Rules are you looking at? Where does it state these Drones are not part of the Detachment when they Disembark? They are purchased as part of the Vehicles in question with the capacity to Disembark, after all.

By the emperor you people is dumb.

Take a unit of 3 piranhas.

Detach the drones THAT FORM THEMSELVES INTO A DIFFERENT FETHING UNIT.

Lose a model or spend some seeker missiles in the piranhas unit, or whatever reason you want, and have them within 6" of the board edge.

THE DRONES ARE NOT THE SAME UNIT AS THE PIRANHAS.

Whether the drones remain in the formation or not is not the question here. It is the surviving members OF THE UNIT.

Now, if you have a unit of 3 piranhas that loose their drones, and a few of the drones die but the surviving drones get to within 6" of the proper biatx edge, we can have a discussion about whether or not those drones are part of the formation(i have no fething clue, which is why I haye unit creation mid-game). The drones are not in the same unit as the piranhas that are leaving.

Edit: I am sorry for being short; but if you cannot even read the question asked, why should we trust your reading of the rules?


Whether the drones form a unit from that formation does not matter to the question asked. The Drones are no longer part of the piranha unit. The Drones are absolutely not never surviving models in the piranhas unit. If you want to ask about mid-game created units as part of a detachment; or discuss that issue open a new thread. I answered the question directly(with added futurama humor) in the first post. The Drones detached form a sepatate unit and are no longer a part of the particular unit from the formation attempting the "Refuel and Resupply".

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Not a unit in that formation. Check.

How is it not a unit in that formation?

The NEW DRONE UNIT was not a member of the formation, that's how.

Unless you can point me to the unit on the formation data sheet?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Not a unit in that formation. Check.

How is it not a unit in that formation?

The NEW DRONE UNIT was not a member of the formation, that's how.

Unless you can point me to the unit on the formation data sheet?

A Razorback isn't on the datasheet of the Reclusiam Command Squad, but still part of the Formation as it is purchased as part of the Command Squad's options.

If you are referring to a situation like a Daemon Conjuring or a Tervigon's Brood Progenitor where the unit is made whole cloth out of the situation, that is not quite true. The Piranha Drones are purchased as part of the unit, and they exist already Embarked on the Piranhas. Indeed at this time, it is impossible to purchase a Piranha Squadron without also purchasing an Embarked Gun Drone Squad at the same time.

Now, the point Kell brings up is important. They are NOT the same unit as the Piranhas, so if Disembarked prior, would not be restored unless they are also put in the same situation. But they also wouldn't be restored when the Piranhas are restored. They aren't the "arms" of a Piranha, either, but Passengers.

If they have yet to Disembark, though, then any Drones on a lost Piranha would be restored along with the Piranha for the same reason the lost Piranha would be restored. Remember, that all Drones of a Squadron must Disembark at the same time, so it's not like you would have 4 Disembarked Drones and 4 Embarked Drones from the same Piranha Squadron.

They are replaced on the vehicles when the piranha unit returns. That is exactly what rearm and refuel says. It also says nothing about removing the new unit of drones that, yes, was created when they detached.

Vehicle drones in the Tau codex tells you that when the drones detach they form a new unit. This is more akin to conjuration powers or tervigon unit creation that taking a dt in a formation or detachment. The unit created were not purchased as part of the detachment and may not ever exist at all in a given game(such as managing to kill the spotter unit of 1 piranha before it has a chance to release its drones).

The rearm and refuel rule also does not address the drones themselves leaving and reentering(honestly there is hardly a "starting strength" as the unit was created midgame; but it could be argued that the starting strength is the size at creation)

 Charistoph wrote:

If they have yet to Disembark, though, then any Drones on a lost Piranha would be restored along with the Piranha for the same reason the lost Piranha would be restored. Remember, that all Drones of a Squadron must Disembark at the same time, so it's not like you would have 4 Disembarked Drones and 4 Embarked Drones from the same Piranha Squadron.

That is actually the idea behind the Drone factory. A fully restored piranha would have the gundrones restored just like launched seekers.

barnowl wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

If they have yet to Disembark, though, then any Drones on a lost Piranha would be restored along with the Piranha for the same reason the lost Piranha would be restored. Remember, that all Drones of a Squadron must Disembark at the same time, so it's not like you would have 4 Disembarked Drones and 4 Embarked Drones from the same Piranha Squadron.

That is actually the idea behind the Drone factory. A fully restored piranha would have the gundrones restored just like launched seekers.

Which is how the rule works.

Christoph - yet until they disembark, the unit Doesnt exist. Meaning they are not part f the formation (the unit, anyway) and do aren't removed.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
They are replaced on the vehicles when the piranha unit returns. That is exactly what rearm and refuel says. It also says nothing about removing the new unit of drones that, yes, was created when they detached.

Does it state it replaces Disembarked Drones (I'm just going by what is listed here)? If not, then it is not rearming, as Drones are not considered Weapons of the Piranha, but Embarked passengers.

Looking up Blood of Kittens reference, it says it does, but I do not know how accurate they are in this case without the book to reference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Christoph - yet until they disembark, the unit Doesnt exist. Meaning they are not part f the formation (the unit, anyway) and do aren't removed.

I cannot fully agree on that point. The units' models are present and exist, it just is not recognized as their own separate unit until they Disembark and cannot Disembark involuntarily.

Yes it very specifically replaces the drones and seeker missiles.

The last half of the last sentence in the rule where the returning unit is back to full strength with damage repaired: "and Drones and Seeker Missiles replaced."

As far as the drones unit goes; they are teated as passengers firing from firepoints but also still as part of the vehicle unit until they detach. They automatically come with the vehicles they can be attached to and generate a new unit when detached. So they are in a strange grey area where we are not even sure which battlefield role they have let alone if they are part of the detachment the vehicles come from. Summoned daemons at least have specific armylist entries to go by; detached drones are just a unit of gun drones with the normal gundrone profiles and wargear the same as when they were attached. A Drones unit ALE is a fast attack, but the ones that detach and form a new unit from hammerheads may or may not be heavy support(we have no statements in the book on this)

Christoph - the models exist; the unit explicitly does not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Christoph - the models exist; the unit explicitly does not.

And what says they are not part of the detachment of the unit they Disembarked from? Remember, this is not the same as a Conjuring, Summoning, or Projenitor releasing. Roles in a Formation are not needed, so that isn't something that disqualifies it. The Gun Drones already exist as part of the unit as they are purchased with the unit. Just because the unit is organized later does not mean it isn't part of the Detachment.

The unit is created later; when they disembark. It does not exist before that point.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unit is created later; when they disembark. It does not exist before that point.

Can a model exist independent of a unit? How does that interact with rules or effects that target units?

As a hypothetical, consider a Piranha struck in close combat by a Siege Dreadnought's assault drill, which causes all embarked models to suffer a heavy flamer hit. Assume both drones are destroyed by this attack; does the Dreadnought count as having destroyed a unit, for purposes of Carcharodons chapter tactics?

Creeperman wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unit is created later; when they disembark. It does not exist before that point.

Can a model exist independent of a unit? How does that interact with rules or effects that target units?

As a hypothetical, consider a Piranha struck in close combat by a Siege Dreadnought's assault drill, which causes all embarked models to suffer a heavy flamer hit. Assume both drones are destroyed by this attack; does the Dreadnought count as having destroyed a unit, for purposes of Carcharodons chapter tactics?

Interesting question. Per the Piranha datasheet, it's gun drones are wargear. Per the Attached Drones section of the Drone rules, attached Drones count as passenger that take up no space and are their own firepoints, yet must target the same target as the vehicle they are attached to. A case can be made regarding some attacks that effect passengers, but not all such attacks. Templet weapons would have no effect if the vehicle is not open topped, for example. And there is the issue of the Drones being wargear until they detach. From a rules lawyering point of view, attached Drones are not passengers, they are only treated as passengers in very specific, listed ways. As such, it can be reasonably argued that neither the Seige Drill nor the Chapter Tactic would have an effect in regards to attached Drones.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Interesting question. Per the Piranha datasheet, it's gun drones are wargear. Per the Attached Drones section of the Drone rules, attached Drones count as passenger that take up no space and are their own firepoints, yet must target the same target as the vehicle they are attached to. A case can be made regarding some attacks that effect passengers, but not all such attacks. Templet weapons would have no effect if the vehicle is not open topped, for example. And there is the issue of the Drones being wargear until they detach. From a rules lawyering point of view, attached Drones are not passengers, they are only treated as passengers in very specific, listed ways. As such, it can be reasonably argued that neither the Seige Drill nor the Chapter Tactic would have an effect in regards to attached Drones.

SJ

I'm not sure that you can make that argument in good faith. The drones explicitly have blanket permission to be treated as embarked passengers in all respects, save the few specific exceptions laid out in the Attached Drones paragraphs. None of those exceptions relate to how they resolve hits or damage.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unit is created later; when they disembark. It does not exist before that point.

Out of Passenger Models that existed before that point and that were purchased as part of the Formation units.

There really is nothing covering this situation, unlike the other scenarios where a unit is created anew ala Conjuring, Summoning, and the Tervigon's Progenitor ability.

Creeperman wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Interesting question. Per the Piranha datasheet, it's gun drones are wargear. Per the Attached Drones section of the Drone rules, attached Drones count as passenger that take up no space and are their own firepoints, yet must target the same target as the vehicle they are attached to. A case can be made regarding some attacks that effect passengers, but not all such attacks. Templet weapons would have no effect if the vehicle is not open topped, for example. And there is the issue of the Drones being wargear until they detach. From a rules lawyering point of view, attached Drones are not passengers, they are only treated as passengers in very specific, listed ways. As such, it can be reasonably argued that neither the Seige Drill nor the Chapter Tactic would have an effect in regards to attached Drones.

SJ

I'm not sure that you can make that argument in good faith. The drones explicitly have blanket permission to be treated as embarked passengers in all respects, save the few specific exceptions laid out in the Attached Drones paragraphs. None of those exceptions relate to how they resolve hits or damage.

As I said, it can be argued. It can also be argued the other way. My take on the rules is that it is a permissive rule set, only allowing us to do what it gives us permission to do. In this case we are told that the wargear on this model is treated as embarked passengers that take up no space, are treat as their own fire-points, but must still target the same target as the vehicle. If the vehicle is destroyed while the wargear is attached, the wargear is lost. But if the wargear detaches, it forms a new and seperate unit from the vehicle. Given that the Drones in question were never passengers, and only become a unit in it's own right after detachment, the only grounds to treat the Drones as actual passengers occurs when shooting and when detaching. As the rules never actually state that attached Drones are passengers, the Drones are never passengers, just wargear that at times is treated like passengers under specific circumstances.

That's why it can be argued.

SJ

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unit is created later; when they disembark. It does not exist before that point.

Out of Passenger Models that existed before that point and that were purchased as part of the Formation units.

There really is nothing covering this situation, unlike the other scenarios where a unit is created anew ala Conjuring, Summoning, and the Tervigon's Progenitor ability.

Yes, the models existed. I do not dispute that.

The unit, explicitly, does not exist until it is created by the models disembarking. The act of disembarking creates an entirely new unit, a unit that does not appear within the formation in any way, shape or form.

Most of this thread is proof that you shouldn't make posts in ymdc if you havnt actually read the rules you're talking about

This does raise another question though: when do attached drones shoot?

Do they shoot at the same time as the vehicle unit or can you move to another unit after the vehicle fires then return to th drones(or vice versa)?

They are not a separate unit unit detached(that is clear from the detaching rules); but are treated as passengers. And in a multi-vehicle unit, if they fire separately from the vehicles; that would mean you could fire a pair of drones, fire with some broadsides, go back to the vehicles unit, fire from some crisis units, then go back to another pair of drones. All the attached drones fire at the same target as the vehicle(s), but we have no way of knowing when they fire.

Passengers are generally a separate unit, which is what Christoph is trying to express. But even with the treated as passengers read as treated as a separate unit; once you detach you are also told you create a new unit. Even a single devilfish detaching its drones, the new unit created is not the passengers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bobug wrote:
Most of this thread is proof that you shouldn't make posts in ymdc if you havnt actually read the rules you're talking about

No, most of this thread is a completely different discussion from what the OP asked.

To address the OP, the detached Drones are not listed as a unit in the formation, and therefore are not subject to the formation's special rules.

As to when the attached Drones fire, it should be when the vehicle fires, which is also at the same target. Attached Drone are effectively sponsons until they detach. However, as the Drones do fire as if they are passengers, you can legally fire them at a different time than the vehicle, awkward as that is.

SJ

SJ: more to the point, the detached Drones are not in the same unit that is leaving(which was the OPs question).

As far as the drones firing goes; I would play it the same as the Lasgun Arrays on a Chimera: fires at the same time as the vehicles as if part of the vehicle(the major difference being that the arrays specifically can fire at separate targets and the drones must fire at the same target as the vehicle).

The reason I even brought up when the drones fire was to also illustrate that each pair on each vehicle in the vehicle unit would be an individual "pseudo-unit" as passengers are a separate unit from transports(or acting transports) and the Transport Capacity rules tell us that you cannot split up a unit between multiple transports. Basically it was more to show that the Drone unit is created new midgame like progenitor or conjuration even though the wargear models started on the vehicles.

Indeed. But look at the Hammerhead and Sky Ray gunships. Both have two Gun Drones as wargear, both can swap out the Drones for either a twin-linked missile pod or twin-linked burst cannon. How are the missile pod and burst cannon modeled?

By swapping the weapons on the Gun Drones.

Yet, the Drones go away as wargear to be replaced by vehicle wespons modeled as Drones.

SJ