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 JohnHwangDD wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
In a casual game, you can take nearly anything in the eldar dex. Maybe not guardians or rangers...haven't tried them, but the vast majority of the dex does okay. I was clearly talking about competitive lists, I even mentioned the hawks appearing in tourney lists.

Still decent objective grabbing for competitivecasual play (only).

Rangers do alright for holding backfield objectives if your opponent mistakes them for a threat in my experience.

FTFY.

Rangers are pure casual play. They are *only* good for camping on a backfield objective, and even then, only one that has decent sight lines to stuff that won't be in charge range.

You fixed the wrong part.

I stand by Rangers being useful when there's a good chance of the opponent thinking they're a threat. Tell me my opponent spending a turn shooting about 1k points of his army at a Ranger squad is bad.

If your opponent spends 1k points of his army shooting at rangers, of all things, he's awful and should really do...something. I don't even know how you would fix that kind of just complete lack of thinking on their part. Drinking if they haven't started, or immediately stopping if they have. Either way they are on the wrong end of that line.

Nearly every unit in the game out melees them, just send a squad in or use flamers. Or marker lights, or something else that ignores cover. Or ignore them, because they don't do any real damage to anything. It's rangers after all.

Totally agree with Aki - anybody wasting 1k pts of shooting at Rangers is a bad player. Rangers are a low priority, low threat unit that you address at your leisure, after real threats are neutralized. Sure, if there's absolutely nothing better to do, you might as well take a pot shot, rather than nothing. And even then, that assumes it's not better from a tactical or strategic standpoint to Run somewhere.

Tho I am confused about the "nearly every unit" beating them in melee - I'm not sure what units Rangers can regularly beat in HtH combat on a point-for-point basis. I can't think of any off the top of my head. But if "nearly" is simply shorthand for "every unit beats them in HtH, but I don't have time to hunt for the exception that proves the rule," then I'm OK with that.

You expect close combat from snipers?

There are far far worse things that I have seen.

Dude, just admit that Rangers are for casual play, and we can move on.

You could just do that anyway. I'm hardly screaming that Rangers are a devastating unit.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Totally agree with Aki - anybody wasting 1k pts of shooting at Rangers is a bad player. Rangers are a low priority, low threat unit that you address at your leisure, after real threats are neutralized. Sure, if there's absolutely nothing better to do, you might as well take a pot shot, rather than nothing. And even then, that assumes it's not better from a tactical or strategic standpoint to Run somewhere.

Tho I am confused about the "nearly every unit" beating them in melee - I'm not sure what units Rangers can regularly beat in HtH combat on a point-for-point basis. I can't think of any off the top of my head. But if "nearly" is simply shorthand for "every unit beats them in HtH, but I don't have time to hunt for the exception that proves the rule," then I'm OK with that.

As a scientist, I never say all as a rule. I always have that one student that proves me wrong and then I have to hand out extra credit.

pm713 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

pm713 wrote:
In what way are they better...

Agreed. Between easy missile spam (and I do love me some Eldar Missile Launcher spam), Crimson Hunters, and even the Hemlock with its high Pursuit/Agility should easily win a dogfight.

I think you misunderstood me. I was asking how the Hawks got better after the FaQ not how they were a better AA unit. Although I thought the Hemlock couldn't target flyers?

I think I can safely cut off the first part of this.

You are right, I did misunderstand what you were asking. I thought you were asking how they were better AA.
You are also correct regarding the Hemlock, I misunderstood the rules for Dogfighting and had to double check.

For DE, the best tank hunting is Scourges with either Haywire if you want reliable ranged tank hunting, or Heat Lance, if you want to removed one tank and don't care about the squad surviving.
After that, CC Reavers are good for their cost against light armor, Talos will wreck most vehicles they touch and can load haywire/heatlance (bets in CTC), Ravagers with lances are ok at killing tanks, but not the best.
After that, stuff like Blasterborn, the DE flyers, grots/beastpack/the snake dudes in melee

CWE are much better, but those are our options.

Best way to do it? Double Wraith knight, max out warphunters(or w/e the 3 D template forgeworld thing is called) Flavor with Hornets. No opponent will ever bring tanks (or anything else) against you again.

 Happyjew wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

pm713 wrote:
In what way are they better...

Agreed. Between easy missile spam (and I do love me some Eldar Missile Launcher spam), Crimson Hunters, and even the Hemlock with its high Pursuit/Agility should easily win a dogfight.

I think you misunderstood me. I was asking how the Hawks got better after the FaQ not how they were a better AA unit. Although I thought the Hemlock couldn't target flyers?

I think I can safely cut off the first part of this.

You are right, I did misunderstand what you were asking. I thought you were asking how they were better AA.
You are also correct regarding the Hemlock, I misunderstood the rules for Dogfighting and had to double check.

That only applies if your using Death from the Skies. Since most people aren't, the Hemlock has Skyfire on it's Heavy D-Scythes so can shoot at other flyers as per the FAQ.