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Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
I didn't say it was invalid. Just not worth 35 points per model and how often do you see deathmarks? Beating necrons through atricion is a ill advised and difficult for pretty much everyone but eldar.

Then how else do you intend to beat them? Attrition is main way I've lost units, short of D-weapons or Sweeping advances.

I intend to lose vs Necrons, as GW intended.

You are supposed to ally with them, because that pleases him.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
And my Grav doesn't do squat against Necrons, whereas your D does.

Yes it does. Grav hurts literally everything.

Which is kind of ridiculous to me. There's plenty of weapons in the game that have an upper limit to what they can hurt. Grav should not be able to wound models that don't have an armor save, plain and simple.

I'd rather Grav didn't stay. Along with a few other things.

I would be fine with giving up grav, if it meant the imperium finally figured out how to install a heat sink on a plasma gun so it does not blow up in my face.

I'm pretty certain a nerf is coming. I would imagine the Immobilized result will get removed, as its one of the biggest reasons vehicles are so useless.

I wouldn't mind AP3.

 Runic wrote:
I'm pretty certain a nerf is coming. I would imagine the Immobilized result will get removed, as its one of the biggest reasons vehicles are so useless.

I wouldn't mind AP3.

That would make no sense though. You'd have a weapon that is better at wounding terminators than power armored units because it uses the bulk of soldiers' armor against them. Yet somehow terminator armor protects you from it while power armor doesn't?

Grav is overpowered because it has a ridiculous rate of fire. Why should it shoot faster than miniguns and heavy machine guns? The whole idea behind assault cannons, heavy bolters and multi/scatter lasers is that they have a high rate of fire with relatively low damage and penetrating power. Then suddenly along comes this weapon that hurts more WITH a higher rate of fire. Give grav fewer shots and you have a weapon that actually fits into the meta.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
And my Grav doesn't do squat against Necrons, whereas your D does.

Yes it does. Grav hurts literally everything.

Which is kind of ridiculous to me. There's plenty of weapons in the game that have an upper limit to what they can hurt. Grav should not be able to wound models that don't have an armor save, plain and simple.

Wanna know why?

Because GW.

Real News wrote:

 Runic wrote:
I'm pretty certain a nerf is coming. I would imagine the Immobilized result will get removed, as its one of the biggest reasons vehicles are so useless.

I wouldn't mind AP3.

That would make no sense though. You'd have a weapon that is better at wounding terminators than power armored units because it uses the bulk of soldiers' armor against them. Yet somehow terminator armor protects you from it while power armor doesn't?

Grav is overpowered because it has a ridiculous rate of fire. Why should it shoot faster than miniguns and heavy machine guns? The whole idea behind assault cannons, heavy bolters and multi/scatter lasers is that they have a high rate of fire with relatively low damage and penetrating power. Then suddenly along comes this weapon that hurts more WITH a higher rate of fire. Give grav fewer shots and you have a weapon that actually fits into the meta.

Grav is where it should be.

Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Multi/Scatter Lasers are still using the old measure of things. You want to find the issue? It's relic rules.

Rapid Fire is a joke. It has been for editions. Rapid Fire needs to be dramatically changed and put in line with Salvo and Assault weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Runic wrote:
I'm pretty certain a nerf is coming. I would imagine the Immobilized result will get removed, as its one of the biggest reasons vehicles are so useless.

"Vehicles" aren't useless. Vehicles with no saves are useless, and will continue to be useless even if Grav loses its Immobilized results.

Why? Simple: It's easier to glance a vehicle to death than it is to actually penetrate it for the Explodes result. Hull Points are a joke, Tanks are a joke, Jink is king.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Multi/Scatter Lasers are still using the old measure of things. You want to find the issue? It's relic rules.

Rapid Fire is a joke. It has been for editions. Rapid Fire needs to be dramatically changed and put in line with Salvo and Assault weapons.

It would be easier to change the one new rule than to change every single old rule that's been around since 3rd edition to balance out a single new weapon.

If you're advocating for GW to wipe the slate clean and start fresh, then I agree. But if they aren't going to, then they're obviously not going to change every single legacy weapon. Either we get a reboot that invalidates all old codices (with another "get you by" codex for everybody in the meantime) or we get a new edition that temporarily uses the old codex books.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Grav is what Space Marines get instead of Strength D weaponry. Grav is our answer to big things like Wraithknights, Riptides, and Stormsurges. It has to stay.

Oh so it's just for SM then. What about Nids. Orks? Any other unit than SM that get the easy button?

Davor wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Grav is what Space Marines get instead of Strength D weaponry. Grav is our answer to big things like Wraithknights, Riptides, and Stormsurges. It has to stay.

Oh so it's just for SM then. What about Nids. Orks? Any other unit than SM that get the easy button?

It's pretty much just SM and Eldar. To a lesser extent DA and BA. Best thing is to chop both factions easy buttons off.

pm713 wrote:

Davor wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Grav is what Space Marines get instead of Strength D weaponry. Grav is our answer to big things like Wraithknights, Riptides, and Stormsurges. It has to stay.

Oh so it's just for SM then. What about Nids. Orks? Any other unit than SM that get the easy button?

It's pretty much just SM and Eldar. To a lesser extent DA and BA. Best thing is to chop both factions easy buttons off.

Eldar would still be nuts, Tau would go from very good to rofl stomp ungodly, necrons would be back to release level power, Knight Armies would consistently make top tables and Nids, Orks, DE, CSM would still be garbage, and this would be the tier SM would drop down into.

If you nerf grav down to even where it goes from auto-include to niche Space Marines become dogsh**. The only models you would ever see in power armor are Twolves, Dark Angels Black Knights, Libcon, and a few powerful melee characters. That's it. Marines have nothing else to shoot. Melta is MAYBE 2 shots per squad, Plasma is and has always been freaking terrible, LasCannons are so 5th ed it hurts to bring them, heavy bolters are a joke, missle launchers are the worst weapon in the codex. The only list I could even see MAYBE working would some kind of Sternguard spam.

If you don't play SM competitively, make a list with plasma/lasconnons whereever grav would go and play against an eldar or Tau player and see how much fun that would be.

Real News wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Multi/Scatter Lasers are still using the old measure of things. You want to find the issue? It's relic rules.

Rapid Fire is a joke. It has been for editions. Rapid Fire needs to be dramatically changed and put in line with Salvo and Assault weapons.

It would be easier to change the one new rule than to change every single old rule that's been around since 3rd edition to balance out a single new weapon.

If you're advocating for GW to wipe the slate clean and start fresh, then I agree. But if they aren't going to, then they're obviously not going to change every single legacy weapon. Either we get a reboot that invalidates all old codices (with another "get you by" codex for everybody in the meantime) or we get a new edition that temporarily uses the old codex books.

My codices don't have the rules for "Rapid Fire", "Assault", "Salvo", or "Heavy" weapons in them. Did you get a special edition codex?

Sarcasm aside, it's just as easy to change "the one old rule" as it is "the one new rule".

Here let me demonstrate! This is a rough concept I've had floating around in my head for awhile:

Rapid Fire
Rapid Fire weapons can put forth a prodigious amount of shots. The accuracy and number of those shots is dependent upon how close the targets are to the firer and whether or not the firing unit has moved. As the distance reduces so does the number of shots, however the accuracy increases.

Rapid Fire weapons can fire using the following profiles if they have moved, based upon the distance between the shooter and the target.
3-11 inches: 1 shot, +1 BS
12-19 inches: 2 shots, no modifier
20-27 inches: 3 shots, -1 BS
28+ inches: 4 shots, -2 BS

Rapid Fire weapons can fire using the following profiles if they have not moved, based upon the distance between the shooter and the target.
3-11 inches: 2 shots, +2 BS
12-19 inches: 3 shots, +1 BS
20-27 inches: 4 shots, no modifier
28+ inches: 5 shots, -1 BS

You'll notice that yes, it does reward units for "gunlining" by altering the penalties and adding an additional shot--however it also makes it so Rapid Fire weapons which tend towards low Strength and low AP are actually going to be utilized properly--by spraying shots down range and hoping for the best.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Rapid Fire weapons can fire using the following profiles if they have moved, based upon the distance between the shooter and the target.
3-11 inches: 1 shot, +1 BS
12-19 inches: 2 shots, no modifier
20-27 inches: 3 shots, -1 BS
28+ inches: 4 shots, -2 BS

Rapid Fire weapons can fire using the following profiles if they have not moved, based upon the distance between the shooter and the target.
3-11 inches: 2 shots, +2 BS
12-19 inches: 3 shots, +1 BS
20-27 inches: 4 shots, no modifier
28+ inches: 5 shots, -1 BS

You'll notice that yes, it does reward units for "gunlining" by altering the penalties and adding an additional shot--however it also makes it so Rapid Fire weapons which tend towards low Strength and low AP are actually going to be utilized properly--by spraying shots down range and hoping for the best.

More complicated rules in an already bloated system.

I'm really not sure why grav gets so much hate. Do you people not play against Necron, or daemons any? Guess what - grav is practically useless vs them. I'm not even going to mention horde armies as I'm sure most of you have never seen one before - but they are actually VERY strong right now and grav sucks vs them.

Heres what grav also sucks against. Anything rerolling an invo save. Because grav is VERY expensive. Up your game...Theres a lot more scary things out there than Grav cannons...like D weapons...ap2 torrent flamers - mass str 6-7 firepower from out of your grav range....invisibility...rerolling 2++ saves. Like I just don't get the grav hate.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm really not sure why grav gets so much hate. Do you people not play against Necron, or daemons any? Guess what - grav is practically useless vs them. I'm not even going to mention horde armies as I'm sure most of you have never seen one before - but they are actually VERY strong right now and grav sucks vs them.

Heres what grav also sucks against. Anything rerolling an invo save. Because grav is VERY expensive. Up your game...Theres a lot more scary things out there than Grav cannons...like D weapons...ap2 torrent flamers - mass str 6-7 firepower from out of your grav range....invisibility...rerolling 2++ saves. Like I just don't get the grav hate.

Just because there are other OP stuff in the game that Grav isn't the best against doesn't make Grav any less OP. The fact that it has so many shots, further invalidates vehicles, and shreds through anything with an armor save, makes it worth it's points. You wanna know what you do with your grav when you go up against a horde army? You don't shoot it at the horde, and let your bolters take care of it. Wanna know what to do against a Invis-star? Don't shoot at it.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Rapid Fire weapons can fire using the following profiles if they have moved, based upon the distance between the shooter and the target.
3-11 inches: 1 shot, +1 BS
12-19 inches: 2 shots, no modifier
20-27 inches: 3 shots, -1 BS
28+ inches: 4 shots, -2 BS

Rapid Fire weapons can fire using the following profiles if they have not moved, based upon the distance between the shooter and the target.
3-11 inches: 2 shots, +2 BS
12-19 inches: 3 shots, +1 BS
20-27 inches: 4 shots, no modifier
28+ inches: 5 shots, -1 BS

You'll notice that yes, it does reward units for "gunlining" by altering the penalties and adding an additional shot--however it also makes it so Rapid Fire weapons which tend towards low Strength and low AP are actually going to be utilized properly--by spraying shots down range and hoping for the best.

More complicated rules in an already bloated system.

How many Rapid Fire weapons out there are 28+ inches in range? How about 20-27 inches?

It isn't hard to do rote memorization for the armies you play or play against commonly.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Rapid Fire weapons can fire using the following profiles if they have moved, based upon the distance between the shooter and the target.
3-11 inches: 1 shot, +1 BS
12-19 inches: 2 shots, no modifier
20-27 inches: 3 shots, -1 BS
28+ inches: 4 shots, -2 BS

Rapid Fire weapons can fire using the following profiles if they have not moved, based upon the distance between the shooter and the target.
3-11 inches: 2 shots, +2 BS
12-19 inches: 3 shots, +1 BS
20-27 inches: 4 shots, no modifier
28+ inches: 5 shots, -1 BS

You'll notice that yes, it does reward units for "gunlining" by altering the penalties and adding an additional shot--however it also makes it so Rapid Fire weapons which tend towards low Strength and low AP are actually going to be utilized properly--by spraying shots down range and hoping for the best.

More complicated rules in an already bloated system.

How many Rapid Fire weapons out there are 28+ inches in range? How about 20-27 inches?

It isn't hard to do rote memorization for the armies you play or play against commonly.

But the game doesn't need any complex rules like this. Rapidfire is fine as it is right now. Maybe there could be some tweaks, sure. But adding all of this is a bit much. I can't even imagine what you would do to Heavy and Salvo weapons.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Rapid Fire weapons can fire using the following profiles if they have moved, based upon the distance between the shooter and the target.
3-11 inches: 1 shot, +1 BS
12-19 inches: 2 shots, no modifier
20-27 inches: 3 shots, -1 BS
28+ inches: 4 shots, -2 BS

Rapid Fire weapons can fire using the following profiles if they have not moved, based upon the distance between the shooter and the target.
3-11 inches: 2 shots, +2 BS
12-19 inches: 3 shots, +1 BS
20-27 inches: 4 shots, no modifier
28+ inches: 5 shots, -1 BS

You'll notice that yes, it does reward units for "gunlining" by altering the penalties and adding an additional shot--however it also makes it so Rapid Fire weapons which tend towards low Strength and low AP are actually going to be utilized properly--by spraying shots down range and hoping for the best.

More complicated rules in an already bloated system.

How many Rapid Fire weapons out there are 28+ inches in range? How about 20-27 inches?

It isn't hard to do rote memorization for the armies you play or play against commonly.

But the game doesn't need any complex rules like this. Rapidfire is fine as it is right now.

Do you play any armies with Rapid Fire?

No, it isn't fine right now. It hasn't been fine for a looooooooooong time.

Maybe there could be some tweaks, sure.

That's like saying "Well, you have a flat tire but with some tweaks we can get you driving still." Sure you can keep limping around on a flat tire by patching it and filling it back up with air, but why would you do that if you have a spare tire?

But adding all of this is a bit much. I can't even imagine what you would do to Heavy and Salvo weapons.

Nothing. Heavy and Salvo weapons are fine. Rapid Fire is realistically the only one that needs to be addressed.

Rapid Fire, as I mentioned before, isn't. It's an additional shot at half range--whoopity doo! If it were "an additional shot at half range, and two additional shots at a quarter range"--we might not be having this conversation. But we probably still would be, because the vast majority of Rapid Fire weapons are dumpster fires to begin with.

Grav needs a RoF reduction. I hope they reduce the number of shots a Heavy Grav gun can put out.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm really not sure why grav gets so much hate. Do you people not play against Necron, or daemons any? Guess what - grav is practically useless vs them. I'm not even going to mention horde armies as I'm sure most of you have never seen one before - but they are actually VERY strong right now and grav sucks vs them.

Heres what grav also sucks against. Anything rerolling an invo save. Because grav is VERY expensive. Up your game...Theres a lot more scary things out there than Grav cannons...like D weapons...ap2 torrent flamers - mass str 6-7 firepower from out of your grav range....invisibility...rerolling 2++ saves. Like I just don't get the grav hate.

Just because there are other OP stuff in the game that Grav isn't the best against doesn't make Grav any less OP. The fact that it has so many shots, further invalidates vehicles, and shreds through anything with an armor save, makes it worth it's points. You wanna know what you do with your grav when you go up against a horde army? You don't shoot it at the horde, and let your bolters take care of it. Wanna know what to do against a Invis-star? Don't shoot at it.

But you still paid for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:
Grav needs a RoF reduction. I hope they reduce the number of shots a Heavy Grav gun can put out.

When MCs get a wound reduction.

I love it how in another thread, people INSIST there is nothing wrong with the Riptide,yet a weapon class that is practically required to kill them at range is the devil. Grav shreds terminators because terminators lack the durability of Riptide. Yet grav must be able to engage Riptide (Riptide still shrugs off DOZENS of grav shots), so terminators become a casualty. Not that anyone should be using them anyway.

Martel732 wrote:

When MCs get a wound reduction.

As long as Chapter Masters get a Wound reduction also.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

When MCs get a wound reduction.

As long as Chapter Masters get a Wound reduction also.

Maybe. Although chapter master are more vulnerable to a wider range of weapons already than MCs. Generic chapter masters die 4X faster to bolters than Riptide. By the time you get to Iron Hand biker guy, it's about the same, but that's very specific.

5 shots on an AP2 weapon? That's too many shots for a weapon with that kind of AP.

 Xerics wrote:
5 shots on an AP2 weapon? That's too many shots for a weapon with that kind of AP.

Not, it really isn't. The AP 2 is just knocking out armor. Fortunately for MCs, they are also rocking a combination of cover, invulns, and FNP. You need the ROF to clear enough wounds to matter. And even then, grav falls short quite often. The wound clearage against the top MCs isn't even that great. Yeah, it butchers units that are already unplayably bad. Big deal. It's 85% of my codex, but how's that different than being scatterbiked off the table?

If they kept the shots at 5 with the special wound mechanic but reduced the AP to 5 like the scatter laser. Even 4 would not be too bad in my opinion. But AP2 is ridiculous.

 Xerics wrote:
If they kept the shots at 5 with the special wound mechanic but reduced the AP to 5 like the scatter laser. Even 4 would not be too bad in my opinion. But AP2 is ridiculous.

Riptide exists. It must be AP 2. Non AP 2 weapons use useless against Riptide and DK. If we get rid of all 2+ armor MCs, then yes, fine. The jump from 3+ armor to 2+ on an MC is insanely good.

Scatter Lasers aren't AP2 though. Eldar have AP 2 in the form of a starcannon for multiple shots and that's only 2 shots. Their D weapons (while very powerful) are all 1 shot each. Nothing like these centurions that can drop pod behind you so you can't get cover and just grav the ever living piss out of you.

Scatterlasers also can't engage Riptide effectively. Riptide and DK are two of the few targets that scatterlasers don't shred at will. With most targets, 2+ armor wont' save you from scatterlasers. But the combo of T6 and 2+ blunts the scatterlaser badly.

Don't let centurions drop behind you. By placing your units, YOU decide where the pods can land. I've been doing this vs SW since 5th ed.

well they either drop behind you so you cant get a cover save from the terrain your standing behind or if you set your stuff up at the edge of your board you most likely dont have any terrain there either. Drop pods cant mishap and half come down on the first turn. unless you are running guardian blobs (why?) then you are probably not gunna get them to not be able to shoot at what they want to shoot at. I have never seen terrain set up where you can get 360 cover around a unit like a wraithknight.