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Relentless platforms is the big problem with Grav. Nobody really has issues with Grav on things like Tac Marines or Sternguard, but on things like Bikes and Centurions, where they work at max shots and max range with full mobility all the time, their supposed balancing factors inherent in the Salvo weapon type just go out the window and you get bike units running around toasing out 6 AP2 shots a turn with a 30" threat range or Centurions that deploy and dump 30 AP2 shots on a unit.

Also the cannon needs to be toned down. Drop it to Salvo 2/4 and drop the Grav Amp.

Finally, remove Grav's ability to affect vehicles. Being high RoF with AP2 and being able to kill 98% of vehicles with a couple of lucky 6's is a bit much, and negates the usefulness of Plasma having a relevant S value over Gravs bypassing of AV completely.

Make those changes and Grav will be useful, but not broken spam option it is now on some platforms.

That said, it was something of an answer to an unasked question in the first place to, doing what Plasma already did...but better.

 Xerics wrote:
well they either drop behind you so you cant get a cover save from the terrain your standing behind or if you set your stuff up at the edge of your board you most likely dont have any terrain there either. Drop pods cant mishap and half come down on the first turn. unless you are running guardian blobs (why?) then you are probably not gunna get them to not be able to shoot at what they want to shoot at. I have never seen terrain set up where you can get 360 cover around a unit like a wraithknight.

You shouldn't be able to hide your Wraithknight. And grav cannons are worked as intended if your WK get smoked. Because there's almost no other way to do it.

and if you try and get cover from a guardian blob to a wraithknight you are most likely gunna get laughed at.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Relentless platforms is the big problem with Grav. Nobody really has issues with Grav on things like Tac Marines or Sternguard, but on things like Bikes and Centurions, where they work at max shots and max range with full mobility all the time, their supposed balancing factors inherent in the Salvo weapon type just go out the window and you get bike units running around toasing out 6 AP2 shots a turn with a 30" threat range or Centurions that deploy and dump 30 AP2 shots on a unit.

Also the cannon needs to be toned down. Drop it to Salvo 2/4 and drop the Grav Amp.

Finally, remove Grav's ability to affect vehicles. Being high RoF with AP2 and being able to kill 98% of vehicles with a couple of lucky 6's is a bit much, and negates the usefulness of Plasma having a relevant S value over Gravs bypassing of AV completely.

Make those changes and Grav will be useful, but not broken spam option it is now on some platforms.

That said, it was something of an answer to an unasked question in the first place to, doing what Plasma already did...but better.

This is only acceptable is additional tools for dealing with MCs are introduced. Giving stronger heavy weapons the ability to cause multiple wounds would be a good start.

Dropping 30 shots on a wraithknight with grav amps is a 99% kill rate to a wraithknight. And its not preventable. Grav should be strong like it is, but you shouldnt be able to just drop in and put the target on full blast from the distance grav gets. At least with melta you had to be in their face to a vehicle. Grav combines so much power from so far away with such a huge amount of shots. SOMETHING about the grav weapons needs to be toned down. Either the RoF goes down or the AP goes up a couple of notches. Drop the salvo and just make it 3 shots or keep the salvo but change salvo so that if a unit moves (relentless or not) it gets the reduced RoF.

ERJAK wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Davor wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Grav is what Space Marines get instead of Strength D weaponry. Grav is our answer to big things like Wraithknights, Riptides, and Stormsurges. It has to stay.

Oh so it's just for SM then. What about Nids. Orks? Any other unit than SM that get the easy button?

It's pretty much just SM and Eldar. To a lesser extent DA and BA. Best thing is to chop both factions easy buttons off.

Eldar would still be nuts, Tau would go from very good to rofl stomp ungodly, necrons would be back to release level power, Knight Armies would consistently make top tables and Nids, Orks, DE, CSM would still be garbage, and this would be the tier SM would drop down into.

If you nerf grav down to even where it goes from auto-include to niche Space Marines become dogsh**. The only models you would ever see in power armor are Twolves, Dark Angels Black Knights, Libcon, and a few powerful melee characters. That's it. Marines have nothing else to shoot. Melta is MAYBE 2 shots per squad, Plasma is and has always been freaking terrible, LasCannons are so 5th ed it hurts to bring them, heavy bolters are a joke, missle launchers are the worst weapon in the codex. The only list I could even see MAYBE working would some kind of Sternguard spam.

If you don't play SM competitively, make a list with plasma/lasconnons whereever grav would go and play against an eldar or Tau player and see how much fun that would be.

Mmmm feel that flawed logic. You can get toned down Eldar too you know.

My point still stands. The best way of fixing the game at present is removing the problems through nerfs or removal rather than some ludicrous buff everything idea. Grav is a good start.

 Xerics wrote:
Dropping 30 shots on a wraithknight with grav amps is a 99% kill rate to a wraithknight. And its not preventable. Grav should be strong like it is, but you shouldnt be able to just drop in and put the target on full blast from the distance grav gets. At least with melta you had to be in their face to a vehicle. Grav combines so much power from so far away with such a huge amount of shots. SOMETHING about the grav weapons needs to be toned down. Either the RoF goes down or the AP goes up a couple of notches. Drop the salvo and just make it 3 shots or keep the salvo but change salvo so that if a unit moves (relentless or not) it gets the reduced RoF.

Only until the primary targets are toned down as well. Not having grav cannons makes it impossible for BA to deal with the WK. Not having grav cannons makes it impossible to deal with Riptide.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Up your game...

LMFAO. Really? Up your game? So how come SM couldn't up their game then? Why should they get the "easy button" while a lot of other armies don't? Easy to say "up your game" when one army is given the tools and a lot of other armies don't have options to up their game.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Grav is what Space Marines get instead of Strength D weaponry. Grav is our answer to big things like Wraithknights, Riptides, and Stormsurges. It has to stay.

Cans my Guard trade our D for your Grav?

Probably not. But you should have been able to use D more effectively. And my Grav doesn't do squat against Necrons, whereas your D does.

why does your grav stop hurting vehicles just because they are necron vehicles? why does your grav not ignore armour saves on necron troops the way the do every other infantry in the game? Because where i play, grav most certainly can hurt necrons. It is still just as effective vs crons as every other army in the game. I dont run with any expensive vehicles or single point cost models in my armies (typically), and to me there is no question grav is far superior to D weapons. Grav is so good i cant remember the lastime i saw a plasmagun or meltagun in a space marine army. Why bring that stuff when grav can and will kill everything in the game. (and please dont bring up how it "struggles" vs hordes, hordes suck in this game and are a complete non factor in high level play.

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Grav is what Space Marines get instead of Strength D weaponry. Grav is our answer to big things like Wraithknights, Riptides, and Stormsurges. It has to stay.

Cans my Guard trade our D for your Grav?

Probably not. But you should have been able to use D more effectively. And my Grav doesn't do squat against Necrons, whereas your D does.

why does your grav stop hurting vehicles just because they are necron vehicles? why does your grav not ignore armour saves on necron troops the way the do every other infantry in the game? Because where i play, grav most certainly can hurt necrons. It is still just as effective vs crons as every other army in the game. And when combined with the hunters eye or new space marine powers to ignore cover, makes it just as OP as D weapons.

You should ask why your Necron players can't play if Grav is just as good against them as other infantry.

pm713-I dont understand the point your trying to make.

ignoring armour of enemy units is amazing any way you slice it esecially when that gun benefits from re-rolls to hit and wound thanks to chapter tactics and grav amps. The gun has zero weakness in todays meta.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Relentless platforms is the big problem with Grav. Nobody really has issues with Grav on things like Tac Marines or Sternguard, but on things like Bikes and Centurions, where they work at max shots and max range with full mobility all the time, their supposed balancing factors inherent in the Salvo weapon type just go out the window and you get bike units running around toasing out 6 AP2 shots a turn with a 30" threat range or Centurions that deploy and dump 30 AP2 shots on a unit.

Also the cannon needs to be toned down. Drop it to Salvo 2/4 and drop the Grav Amp.

Finally, remove Grav's ability to affect vehicles. Being high RoF with AP2 and being able to kill 98% of vehicles with a couple of lucky 6's is a bit much, and negates the usefulness of Plasma having a relevant S value over Gravs bypassing of AV completely.

Make those changes and Grav will be useful, but not broken spam option it is now on some platforms.

That said, it was something of an answer to an unasked question in the first place to, doing what Plasma already did...but better.

This is only acceptable is additional tools for dealing with MCs are introduced. Giving stronger heavy weapons the ability to cause multiple wounds would be a good start.

I'd be prefer to see the problem MC's toned down. Drop a wound and FNP ability from the Riptide and suddenly Plasma guns are far more effective again for example. Stat and special rule inflation is what really needs to be reigned in.


Not that I think multiwound heavy weapons are a bad concept, but I just dont trust GW to manage that execution and additional layer of complexity at this point.

30 grav shots? I suppose you are talking about a squad of 6 centurions? Which can't ride in a pod and require at minimum at 125 point HQ with gates to be effective - then there are still cover saves (which are made 2+ with relative ease). Yep - thats a 700 point squad- IT SHOULD destroy things. Guess how many wounds that does vs a flying MC with 2+ cover? welp 1 in 6 shots hit and wounds gets passed the saves...so less than 1.

How about a squad of thunder-wolves with FNP and storm sheilds ? Averages less than a single dead wolf...and that's just with 4+ fnp...no librarius rerolling saves - no invisibility ether.

I'm to the point if you are complaining about anything other than rerolling saves and OP deathstars and psychic powers you are just a troll. Heck for the points of those centurains I can put 20 sterngard in 2 pods with combi meltas and destroy 2+ titans with ease...I guess meltas are OP huh?

Also another thing thats funny to me about grav is - it's hardly even use. There are 2 reasonable platforms to run them on...centurian deathstars and space marine bikes (and these are just grav guns - no reroll) Not that scary - your lists should be built to make bikes disappear or you aren't actually playing 40k and centurions aren't scary for their price because they have no mobility..

 Xenomancers wrote:
30 grav shots? I suppose you are talking about a squad of 6 centurions? Which can't ride in a pod and require at minimum at 125 point HQ with gates to be effective - then there are still cover saves (which are made 2+ with relative ease). Yep - thats a 700 point squad- IT SHOULD destroy things. Guess how many wounds that does vs a flying MC with 2+ cover? welp 1 in 6 shots hit and wounds gets passed the saves...so less than 1.

How about a squad of thunder-wolves with FNP and storm sheilds ? Averages less than a single dead wolf...and that's just with 4+ fnp...no librarius rerolling saves - no invisibility ether.

I'm to the point if you are complaining about anything other than rerolling saves and OP deathstars and psychic powers you are just a troll. Heck for the points of those centurains I can put 20 sterngard in 2 pods with combi meltas and destroy 2+ titans with ease...I guess meltas are OP huh?

Also another thing thats funny to me about grav is - it's hardly even use. There are 2 reasonable platforms to run them on...centurian deathstars and space marine bikes (and these are just grav guns - no reroll) Not that scary - your lists should be built to make bikes disappear or you aren't actually playing 40k and centurions aren't scary for their price because they have no mobility..

A post from someone doing the math.

ITT: People complaining about something that isn't even broken.

If Grav were as OP as people make it out to be, SM Gladius would be winning every event... yet it is Chaos and Eldar who seem to dominate consistently. The only SM lists that win regularly are deathstar based. Kinda pokes holes in the Grav is OP conversation....

Also, Grav is horrible against light tanks, horrible against light infantry and ATROCIOUS vs Daemons. Daemons are arguably the best faction (look at GT wins, in the last 2-3 years I am almost positive Daemons have the most wins) and are a hard counter to any list that relies on spamming Grav. Grav is also short-ranged and immobile considering its most effective form is the Grav Cannon, which, BTW, costs almost as much as a Necron Wraith and is generally taken by a 1W T4 model.

Anyone who has issues with Grav needs to get better at the game, it is exceedingly easy to premeasure the ranges on Grav and stay out of the first turn alpha. If the opponent is relying on Deepstriking Grav, well, he probably wont win too often because that list is pretty well countered by all the Ripwings and double Storm Surge armies.

Davor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Up your game...

LMFAO. Really? Up your game? So how come SM couldn't up their game then? Why should they get the "easy button" while a lot of other armies don't? Easy to say "up your game" when one army is given the tools and a lot of other armies don't have options to up their game.

Do you know what a D weapon is? Most armies have access to these in some way. Much better than grav.

Let me put this in perspective. BA have few problems with grav unitl invis or draigo or libby conclave get involved.

 LValx wrote:
ITT: People complaining about something that isn't even broken.

If Grav were as OP as people make it out to be, SM Gladius would be winning every event... yet it is Chaos and Eldar who seem to dominate consistently. The only SM lists that win regularly are deathstar based.

You mean like Centstars with Grav Cannons...?

Also, Grav is horrible against light tanks, horrible against light infantry and ATROCIOUS vs Daemons.

the first two of which are not significant meta challenges and all 3 are things which other common SM weaponry, including small arms, are often quite effective against.

Grav is also short-ranged and immobile

not if its on a Bike, Centurion, or Skyhammer Devastator.

considering its most effective form is the Grav Cannon, which, BTW, costs almost as much as a Necron Wraith and is generally taken by a 1W T4 model.

Not the T5 W2 iteration...?

Anyone who has issues with Grav needs to get better at the game, it is exceedingly easy to premeasure the ranges on Grav and stay out of the first turn alpha.

So drop pods, bikes, etc dont exist?

If the opponent is relying on Deepstriking Grav, well, he probably wont win too often because that list is pretty well countered by all the Ripwings and double Storm Surge armies.

which is great for Tau if they survive that turn 1 alpha strike which will likely target such units, but...for IG or CSM's or Grey Knights or Sisters or...?

Being in any kind of transport blunts grav alpha horribly. Also shw's eat up grav lists.

Martel732 wrote:
Let me put this in perspective. BA have few problems with grav unitl invis or draigo or libby conclave get involved.

Aboslutely - then - you stop and think a little bit. Figure with those combos of units you are capalbe of first turn charging half an army with invsible thunderwolves/wolfen/vangards/deathcompany....and you start to wonder why you would even bother with a unit that struggles to kill single models (aka riptide) and focus on destroying entire armies on turn 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:
and if you try and get cover from a guardian blob to a wraithknight you are most likely gunna get laughed at.

Why do you think Eldar players take riptide wings? They do it so they can ensure their wraithknight gets into CC before someone tries to DP grav on it. Because interceptor hard counters grav.

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
pm713-I dont understand the point your trying to make.

ignoring armour of enemy units is amazing any way you slice it esecially when that gun benefits from re-rolls to hit and wound thanks to chapter tactics and grav amps. The gun has zero weakness in todays meta.

My point is that Grav is way less effective against necrons like every other armour ignoring weapon because Necrons are probably going to ignore half the wounds while nobody else will.

pm713 wrote:

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
pm713-I dont understand the point your trying to make.

ignoring armour of enemy units is amazing any way you slice it esecially when that gun benefits from re-rolls to hit and wound thanks to chapter tactics and grav amps. The gun has zero weakness in todays meta.

My point is that Grav is way less effective against necrons like every other armour ignoring weapon because Necrons are probably going to ignore half the wounds while nobody else will.

Grav vs Necron? Better off with heavy bolters. Thats what I put on my devs in my gladius - 4 heavy bolters. Good vs cron and deamon and bikes...its a gak weapon but all my weapons are gak compared to xenos - I have to bring free weapons just to be able to compete.

As a SM player I'd be happy to get rid of Grav Guns if all of our other heavy weapons weren't so painfully useless in the current meta. Missile launchers don't do squat, Plasma Cannons are arguably worse than Plasma Guns (!), Multi-Meltas both require you to stand still and move up with them (Wtf?!) and Lascannons don't pump out enough shots.

And let's not even talk heavy bolters.

 Ashiraya wrote:
And let's not even talk heavy bolters.

My god those things are op.

Xenomancers wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Up your game...

LMFAO. Really? Up your game? So how come SM couldn't up their game then? Why should they get the "easy button" while a lot of other armies don't? Easy to say "up your game" when one army is given the tools and a lot of other armies don't have options to up their game.

Do you know what a D weapon is? Most armies have access to these in some way. Much better than grav.

Uhm, Tyranid player here. There is a reason why I gave up making Orks for my wife.

 Ashiraya wrote:
And let's not even talk heavy bolters.

Hey, there is a very specific build for Imperial Fists that let's you give all your Heavy Bolters twin-linked! How bad can things really be?!

But really though, if they overhauled the Space Marine heavy weapons to make the other weapons actually useful, I could handle Grav being taken down a little (get rid of the Immobilised for vehicles).

 Yarium wrote:

I think Grav should wound based on actual size category though, not based on armour save.

Infantry 6+
Bulky 5+
Very Bulky 4+
Monstrous 3+
Gargantuan 2+

This is worse than the current system It actively helps Space Marines and Tau while Hurting Tyranids and Daemons.

The reason I field Grav weapons in my force is to drop MEQ and TEQ.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Relentless platforms is the big problem with Grav. Nobody really has issues with Grav on things like Tac Marines or Sternguard, but on things like Bikes and Centurions, where they work at max shots and max range with full mobility all the time, their supposed balancing factors inherent in the Salvo weapon type just go out the window and you get bike units running around toasing out 6 AP2 shots a turn with a 30" threat range or Centurions that deploy and dump 30 AP2 shots on a unit.

Also the cannon needs to be toned down. Drop it to Salvo 2/4 and drop the Grav Amp.

Finally, remove Grav's ability to affect vehicles. Being high RoF with AP2 and being able to kill 98% of vehicles with a couple of lucky 6's is a bit much, and negates the usefulness of Plasma having a relevant S value over Gravs bypassing of AV completely.

Make those changes and Grav will be useful, but not broken spam option it is now on some platforms.

That said, it was something of an answer to an unasked question in the first place to, doing what Plasma already did...but better.

This is only acceptable is additional tools for dealing with MCs are introduced. Giving stronger heavy weapons the ability to cause multiple wounds would be a good start.

I'd be prefer to see the problem MC's toned down. Drop a wound and FNP ability from the Riptide and suddenly Plasma guns are far more effective again for example. Stat and special rule inflation is what really needs to be reigned in.


Not that I think multiwound heavy weapons are a bad concept, but I just dont trust GW to manage that execution and additional layer of complexity at this point.

Hit the nail in the head. When MCs got crazy, there needed to be a balancer. When MCS got gak like FNP, shrouded etc, that need became even more apparent. Grav is what does that. The effect it has on vehicles is just poor rule implementation. And a single Grav cannon costs as much as a damn drop pod (not counting the marine) unless you're running centurions (which are fairly easy to outplay) or bikes (who have 9 shots for 1 turn, 6 rest of the game, none rerolling ) you aren't getting the full shot output unless your opponent is dumb enough to let you stand still and hit him with a full salvo.

If people can't outplay grav, that's not the Grav players problem. I've been doing it with CSM for years and I can do it pretty well with bugs and I've only been running them for a few months. Grav serves a purpose. It's powerful on a very limited amount of platforms and once you've developed a counter-strategy to those platforms they become a lot less scary. If you want to whine about the damage output go ahead, but keep in mind a single Grav cent costs 15 points less than a flippin dreadnought. Stands to reason that a unit would have a ridiculous damage output against heavy infantry because grav was DESIGNED to take down anything wearing too much armor for its own good.

Now if you want to get rid of grav, I suggest you let marines replace them with plasma culverins/cavaliers and their heavy counterparts. I'd bet serious money there would be a whine thread about that in a week or so as well, even though it technically serves the same anti-mc anti-heavy infantry purpose.

That said there is some absolutely broken BS like gravstars and skyhammer that abuses the hell out of grav. In those cases bad rules design is to blame for the unit/formations, not the Grav rule itself.

Bottom line, if I have to deal with your infantry with 3 different saves, your riptide wings and GCs carrying ranged D well... when it comes to Grav that is much more situational than anything I just mentioned you can suck it up buttercup. If I can learn to counter the relentless units, anyone can.

I love all this advice as a GK player, apparently I just need to get good with my army. I had no idea.

Grav is broken because it 1 gun will ALWAYS get its points back. Grav just needs to have -1 shot on every current iteration AND pay for grav amps separately on Centurions. Bikes need to have a points increase for grav.

If you have to quote a universally acclaimed OP unit as why grav needs to exist you're an idiot. That unit just needs to be rebalanced itself.