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 DarkBlack wrote:
Very interesting thread, thanks.

Two things I would like to ask though.

Taking loads of Slaanesh is nice and all, but does not sound like a great TAC list. What should I be sure to add in a TAC for the inevitable Eldar matchup?

Second, I play 3 FMC's (LoC and 2 Tzeench princes) with a daemons factory (2x11 horrors + ML3 herald) plus 5 screamers (with a bunch of Slaanesh "allies" to summon). At 1500, for argument's sake; I can't change my list much.
Is throwing flickering fire form the sky and summoning Slaanesh models my best play? (it's the plan)

With no wiggle room that is your only plan. You should summon what is needed at the time.

Otherwise you would drop the FMCs in favor of more screamers, flesh hounds, or plague drones backed up by a herald or 2. I prefer these units to Slaanesh ones as they are more durable. That being said, Daemonettes are great summoned units to apply pressure on the opponent as they can threaten most things with the exception of some vehicles.

Unfortunately. FMC spam isn't that great against Eldar. It looks good on paper, especially since Eldar have trouble vs FMCs, but to really beat Eldar, you need board coverage, and that means fast bodies on the ground. You want to swarm the table and make it so that there are no "comfortable" spots for the Eldar to run or hide.
You also need to have good positioning skills. If you cast your "net" too wide, the Eldar might punch a hole in one side of it to create their own "safe-zone". You need to perfect the balance between spreading out and being able to support units. No unit should be alone. MurderHorde & Skyhost are great at doing this.

While plenty of people have pointed out the advantages of Seekers and Daemonettes, I feel 1 specific detail has been left out. One of the disadvantages of both is the T3. against most opponents, it is much better to have the T4 of Fleshhounds or Screamers. But against competitive Eldar, there is no difference between T3 & T4. Everything the Eldar play has will either wound you on 2+ or wound vs Initiative.
This makes the points per wound of the Daemonettes/Seekers much more valuable than Hounds or Screamers. Plus the I:5 means spiders only wound on 3+.

Although I agree that Hound & Screamer rush lists are better TAC lists that can do well against Eldar (cuz that is basically what I have done for years) if you are tailoring a list to fight Eldar, you need to have Daemonettes/Seekers. It is not only tactically smart, but incredibly fluffy.

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 Galef wrote:
Unfortunately. FMC spam isn't that great against Eldar. It looks good on paper, especially since Eldar have trouble vs FMCs, but to really beat Eldar, you need board coverage, and that means fast bodies on the ground. You want to swarm the table and make it so that there are no "comfortable" spots for the Eldar to run or hide.
You also need to have good positioning skills. If you cast your "net" too wide, the Eldar might punch a hole in one side of it to create their own "safe-zone". You need to perfect the balance between spreading out and being able to support units. No unit should be alone. MurderHorde & Skyhost are great at doing this.

While plenty of people have pointed out the advantages of Seekers and Daemonettes, I feel 1 specific detail has been left out. One of the disadvantages of both is the T3. against most opponents, it is much better to have the T4 of Fleshhounds or Screamers. But against competitive Eldar, there is no difference between T3 & T4. Everything the Eldar play has will either wound you on 2+ or wound vs Initiative.
This makes the points per wound of the Daemonettes/Seekers much more valuable than Hounds or Screamers. Plus the I:5 means spiders only wound on 3+.

Although I agree that Hound & Screamer rush lists are better TAC lists that can do well against Eldar (cuz that is basically what I have done for years) if you are tailoring a list to fight Eldar, you need to have Daemonettes/Seekers. It is not only tactically smart, but incredibly fluffy.

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I don't agree to the idea of tailoring cause it creates some really uncomfortable match ups. Now forgetting my last comment what units would you use to tailor an Eldar list against demons?

I don't list tailor either, but since this thread is specifically calling out how to beat one faction while using another, I thought list tailoring was assumed.

I still live in the naïve world that believes TAC list are the way to play, even in "40K: rock, paper, scissors Edition", but to answer your question, I'd probably stick with Scatterbikes & WKs. I don't use Spiders at all. The have never really clicked with me, and they are almost always the first things to die when an opponent uses them against me. Not because they ate a big threat, but because they're inevitably very close and can be charged easily.
There really is little reason to use Spiders against Daemons since there are so many I:5 or higher models, FMCs and Screamers that can move over and hurt them, and so many fast CC units that can take Spiders out easily.

My ultimate Anit-Daemon Eldar list would have about 6 units of Scatterbikes, 2 Skathach WKs w/ Shield/Death Shroud, Crimson Death Formation, lead by 2 Farseers on bikes each rolling 1 Telepathy for Invis, swap for Shriek if not, then take Guide & Prescience. Very unimaginative, but could thin any Horde and take on FMCs. Maybe substitute the Crimson Death for 6 Hornets instead.

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im not sure how the warp spiders are effective in this matchup at all. Arnt most Demon Princes I9? Hitting on 2s is all well and good but when its wounding on 6s makes them one of the worst targets in the game for warp spiders. not even hitting on 2s when they are flying, if your playing your friend straight up, leave the spiders at home.

At my club we dont have many demons players but in April i played a large (for canada) tournament and played two flying circus armies. I beat the tetriad (because of my opponents errors in landing a turn to early), and got smashed by a fateweaver-screamerstar-couple otherflying DP.

Scat bikes are garbage vs FMC, hitting on 6s, wounding on 4s and not even forcing a jinx is not effective. Hopeing and praying for a 6 from the wraithknight to hit than another 6 on the D chart is not a viable tactic.

This is the only matchup i fear with my eldar and cant wait for the day when the GW FAQ's become official (auto hitting shriek) because i see psychic shrieks becoming my go to tool to kill them (and flyrants which i face alot at my club but also struggle against)

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

This is the only matchup i fear with my eldar and cant wait for the day when the GW FAQ's become official (auto hitting shriek) because i see psychic shrieks becoming my go to tool to kill them (and flyrants which i face alot at my club but also struggle against)

If Shriek auto-hits, then it cannot be used to hit a Swooping FMC. Attacks that auto hit cannot be used to snapfire. Sorry

If you want to list tailor it depends on their list I think. If they're playing spider spam, bring skyhost to its full points. The game will be over in under an hour. Make sure to bring some nurglings/ pink horrors to null deploy. If you can afford some reserve manipulation even better.

If they're bringing tons of 3 man jetbike units, I've had a lot of sucessess with Fateweaver/Loc with all the change powers. They can't jink beams (yet) so the Loc and fateweaver have removed 10 jetbikes a phase from those two powers. Then flickering fire, then novas. The novas can be devastating. This is basically the list I bring and I played against nearly 40 jetbike list at nova and in two psychic phases I removed all but 3 non-farseer jetbikes with only those two models.

However, that list has a lot of trouble against big units of jetbikes with farseers attached. If they do that style, then I think going for belekor with a seekerstar is the way to go like said above.

In a non-tailoring list, I think Fateweaver is a very solid choice here. Psychic scream and several of the tzeentch powers are great for killing jetbikes. Remember that the ap 2 beam power he has doesn't target a unit, so there is no jinking or warp-jumping away from it. Flickering flame and Psychic scream are classics of course. ALWAYS vector strike if you have the option. There's also a Nova power that he can cast to catch multiple jetbike units. The trick is to prey on units without farseers attached for minimal DTW opportunity.

 Galef wrote:

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

This is the only matchup i fear with my eldar and cant wait for the day when the GW FAQ's become official (auto hitting shriek) because i see psychic shrieks becoming my go to tool to kill them (and flyrants which i face alot at my club but also struggle against)

If Shriek auto-hits, then it cannot be used to hit a Swooping FMC. Attacks that auto hit cannot be used to snapfire. Sorry

Not being a douche, but can you let me know where you are making this interpretation from. Dont just say the rulebook, the section on swooping flyers or the snap firing description area? (At work so i cant just check my own books till later)

You are not being a douche for asking clarification. I'd be glad to reference the rules:

Page 33, second paragraph: "any shooting attack that does not use BS cannot be 'fired' as a Snap shot"
Page 69 under 'Hard to Hit', "Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots...."

As Witchfires are shooting attacks, they must be resolved as Snap shots (unless you have Skyfire), ergo Shriek, which does not use BS, cannot be fired at Swooping FMCs.
At least not by a Farseer or Spiritseer. A Hemlock can do it since it has Skyfire (as long as you are a reasonable person and ignore that Death from the Skies exists)

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Thx for the clarification

 Galef wrote:
I don't list tailor either, but since this thread is specifically calling out how to beat one faction while using another, I thought list tailoring was assumed.

I still live in the naïve world that believes TAC list are the way to play, even in "40K: rock, paper, scissors Edition", but to answer your question, I'd probably stick with Scatterbikes & WKs. I don't use Spiders at all. The have never really clicked with me, and they are almost always the first things to die when an opponent uses them against me. Not because they ate a big threat, but because they're inevitably very close and can be charged easily.
There really is little reason to use Spiders against Daemons since there are so many I:5 or higher models, FMCs and Screamers that can move over and hurt them, and so many fast CC units that can take Spiders out easily.

My ultimate Anit-Daemon Eldar list would have about 6 units of Scatterbikes, 2 Skathach WKs w/ Shield/Death Shroud, Crimson Death Formation, lead by 2 Farseers on bikes each rolling 1 Telepathy for Invis, swap for Shriek if not, then take Guide & Prescience. Very unimaginative, but could thin any Horde and take on FMCs. Maybe substitute the Crimson Death for 6 Hornets instead.

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I don't use spiders either. I haven't tried spamming them, but two squads of 6 have failed me so far. I greatly prefer shinning spear against almost anything. On the topic do you find falcons effective against demons?

Not really. None of the tanks are great against Deamons, and they often give the Daemons another easy unit to assault and get free movement.
At best, a Dakka Wave Serpent or Night Spinner can do ok.

Brilliant thread, there's some great input in here. Galef's tactic of rushing fast units right into the eldar army's face from the start makes a lot of sense. Of the core choices the Khorne one strikes me as very strong both for implementing the aggressive anti eldar strategy (rushing lots of fast CC units) and for facing any opponent that isn't eldar. I can't think of many situations where a horde of flesh hounds isn't going to be useful. In a more general sense the option to attach Karanak as a cheap auxiliary is nice too if you don't want a big auxiliary formation for whatever reason

 Galef wrote:
Not really. None of the tanks are great against Deamons, and they often give the Daemons another easy unit to assault and get free movement.
At best, a Dakka Wave Serpent or Night Spinner can do ok.

You don't consolidate after killing a vehicle of any kind. Oh , you meant the assault move.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Not really. None of the tanks are great against Deamons, and they often give the Daemons another easy unit to assault and get free movement.
At best, a Dakka Wave Serpent or Night Spinner can do ok.

You don't consolidate after killing a vehicle of any kind. Oh , you meant the assault move.

Indeed, I meant assault move. Since vehicles, even fast ones, cannot move as fast as Eldar jetbikes and do not have a "thrust" move, it is usually a safe bet that Flesh Hounds, Screamers or Seekers can easily get a turn 2 charge, thus bringing them even closer to the rest of the army. If positioned just right, you should have all the jetbikes pinned in the corner, or forced to turboboost over you (which will bring them closer to you backfield units).
The trick for the Daemon player is to anticipate where you want to force the Eldar to go, not just in the turn you are on, but for the turns thereafter.
If half your army is around your deployment line and spread fairly wide, the other half being in the Eldar deployment zone will effectively remove any and all places for Jetbikes & Spiders to run/hide.
Suddenly all those non-threatening Nurglings and/or Pink horrors that the Eldar were ignoring became a threat. This is where the Tallyband really shines, since they cannot be overwatched against.

I cannot stress just how good the combination of Flesh Hounds, Screamers & a FMC with Shrouding is. Hounds Scout forward, then move to just on the enemy line, then you place Belakor or other FMC with Shrouding right in the middle of them, lastly the Screamers move & turboboost to just in front of them, (making sure all units have 1-2 models within 6" of the FMC). Now the Hounds have a 3+ cover behind the Screamer wall, the Screamers have a 2++ rerollable Jink, and the FMC is flying with 2+ jink. This can be in addition to Grimiore, Cursed Earth, Invis or whatever you like.
I personally do a big unit of Hounds (with Invis) and two units of 5-6 Screamers, but this tactic can work with MSU Hounds or ScreamerStar, or even just with MurderHorde or Skyhost.

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Demons are a top tier codex for a reason.

 Galef wrote:

I cannot stress just how good the combination of Flesh Hounds, Screamers & a FMC with Shrouding is
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Questions is how to get a lot of them into a list
especially if you want to have something with rending too

 kodos wrote:

 Galef wrote:

I cannot stress just how good the combination of Flesh Hounds, Screamers & a FMC with Shrouding is
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Questions is how to get a lot of them into a list
especially if you want to have something with rending too

My standard 6th ed, early 7th ed list had 18 hounds, 2x 5 Screamers, a LoC & Belokor. Add to that 2 Grinders, 2x 11 Horrors, 2x 3 Nurglings, and summoning Daemonettes every turn. I had no issues fitting it all into 1850. Incursion makes it even easier to spam MSU Screamers or Hounds

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Incursion makes it easy to spam MSU, but only either hounds or screamers or seekers

and I don't know if one psyker is enough to summon

edit, focused to summon stuff I need, something like this will be interesting

Best way to counter warpspider spam with daemons is a slaanesh formation with a Herald with the +5 initiative locus.

The warp spider now can't physically harm you at all since strength 6 vs initiative/toughness 10 means they can't harm you even on a roll of a six, meaning all they can do is babysit objectives or if he wants attempt to charge your Daemonettes (where he will most likely lose)

So if you keep the majority of your units in range of a herald for the buff you have neutered his warp spiders, all you need to do then is take enough bodies to get across the board into CC since his other weapons will still kill you.

Found a decent way to kill Warp Spiders in a game recently. Put a unit of Pink Horrors both sides of a piece of terrain so that one model could see him wherever he went. Targeted him, he jumped, then cast it at level 3 with the only PH who could see him! Put a real dent in the unit that hurt their killing power for the game even though a few survived.

 Rydria wrote:
Best way to counter warpspider spam with daemons is a slaanesh formation with a Herald with the +5 initiative locus.

The warp spider now can't physically harm you at all since strength 6 vs initiative/toughness 10 means they can't harm you even on a roll of a six, meaning all they can do is babysit objectives or if he wants attempt to charge your Daemonettes (where he will most likely lose)

I'm pretty sure that the Monofilament rules always wounds on the roll of a 6. Just like Bladestorm, it is AP2 on a 6 as well (not that it matters against Deamons). But forcing the Spiders to only be able to wound on a 6 is a good tactic.

 jifel wrote:
Found a decent way to kill Warp Spiders in a game recently. Put a unit of Pink Horrors both sides of a piece of terrain so that one model could see him wherever he went. Targeted him, he jumped, then cast it at level 3 with the only PH who could see him! Put a real dent in the unit that hurt their killing power for the game even though a few survived.

I don't think this works. In order to "target" a unit with a Withcfire from a Brotherhood of Psykers unit, you need to nominate 1 model in the unit as the one casting the power. If the Spiders Flickerjump out of LoS of THAT model, you cannot then nominate a different model as the caster, as the "nomination step" has already passed.
Besides, if you are close enough to "wrap around" the Spider unit like that, just charge them. That many Horrors should do some damage.

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