Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

BossJakadakk wrote:

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Maybe? The wording in the book is 'single Codex or Codex supplement', but when you pick your force from a supplement it usually says 'use the Codex except where noted'. Do you have a specific example in mind? I've been looking, and a lot of supplements don't really matter in Kill Team (Iyanden giving you five Spiritseers in an HQ slot, for instance).

Specifically Doom of Mymeara Shadow Spectres. The book is an absolute mess, and no matter how much I look, I cannot actually find any wording about how you are supposed to take Shadow Spectres. The only thing that notes that they are a Craftworld Eldar unit is the heading of the chapter and a little graphic on their datasheet that says "Eldar" - it's kind of similar to how the little symbols are now used to denote what force org slot something takes up. It's freaking obnoxious.

I have never had problems fielding them before since it is clearly intended to be a CWE entry that can be used with the original codex, but actually finding the words to figure out if it is allowed in KT is ridiculous.

Huh, that's a good point. I don't own the book, so I couldn't help there, but it seems like they usually put a statement that says something along the lines of "This unit can be used in place of X" or "This unit may be taken as yada yada" on a separate page to the datasheets, right? My friend has Doom of Mymeara, and was just talking yesterday about putting Spectres in his KT. I'll have to ask him to check on that.

Personally, I'd probably allow it anyway.

The icons are used in place of the text in current Imperial Armour books. It's annoying, but the 'Fast Attack' and 'Eldar' stamps mean 'This unit may be taken as a Fast Attack choice in a Codex: Eldar army'. So yes, Shadow Spectres are allowed. What you're supposed to do with the Ghostlight rule is another question entirely.

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

As worded the platform is a separate T5 infantry model with one wound and a 3+ armour save. I'd think it moves around on its own and any Guardian purchased from the same unit can fire it instead of his own weapon.

The Guardian using it to fire has to be within 2" of the weapon as well (as far as the codex is concerned). But would they even be allowed - because if all the Guardian models in its unit are removed (and KT makes it a unit by itself so no more guardians would be in its unit), the platform is immediately removed as a casualty?

Definitely gonna check the wording on that with artillery later today.

The wording is specific to the platform, it doesn't have the Artillery type. In the context of Kill-Team 'unit' means two different things; the unit as purchased from the army list, or the unit as deployed on the table. Common sense I'd say that 'unit' in the weapon platform rule means 'unit as purchased from the army list' (and as such the platform can be used by any model in its original unit and is removed once all Guardians from its original unit are destroyed) because that's the interpretation that lets it actually shoot (if 'unit' is taken to mean 'unit in the game' the platform is only removed when it is killed itself and cannot be fired at all).

BossJakadakk wrote:

 Digclaw wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
Yeah, the rulebook does answer a lot of these questions, but some of these things being brought up are not actually covered the way you claim. For example, the Tau support turret is not deployed, simply "set up" if the unit doesn't move in the movement phase. Considering it's an upgrade normally purchased by a whole unit, a lot of people are playing it as though they can set it up near any member of the squad that purchased it, meaning it gets to jump around the table in KT.

Like I said, I'm going to check the codex after work, but Battlescribe does have the guardian heavy weapon turret listed as infantry, and I remember the codex having a special way of treating it since it's not artillery, but I can't remember the wording off the top of my head.

I think you're thinking of the Vaul's Wrath Support Battery, which actually comes with 2 crew members as you described.

The Kill team rules say that anything that would normally begin the game off the board deploys on the board at the start of the game with every thing else. The only exception is Outflank.

Under the Kill Team Missions heading, page 12 of my digital copy, I'm only seeing "You're on Your Own" reference the fact that reserves are not used outside of Outflanking, and it only mentions Deep Strike when talking about deploying normally.

"If any models in your Kill Team can normally only be deployed via Deep Strike, simply deploy them along with the rest of your army."

Is it on another page?

It from memory not the exact wording, sorry, book isn't accessible for me now

So, with the way break tests work, anyone within 6" of your leader can use his test if he passes it.

So, with this in mind, if your leader was fearless, every friendly model within command range would be too for the purpose of break tests correct?

Because that makes "Been there, seen it, done it" a really nifty trait to give your leader fearless. That, or just take a Fearless leader

Correct.
To be honest, even And They Shall Know No Fear with a decent leadership makes him damn hard to shift.

BossJakadakk wrote:
Like I said, I'm going to check the codex after work, but Battlescribe does have the guardian heavy weapon turret listed as infantry, and I remember the codex having a special way of treating it since it's not artillery, but I can't remember the wording off the top of my head.

I think you're thinking of the Vaul's Wrath Support Battery, which actually comes with 2 crew members as you described.

No problem, but the rule I am recalling (see page 153 Codexç CWE for the rule) is definately for a Heavy Weapons Platform as listed in the guardian entry. Vaul's Wrath, being artillery, are different and are listed in codex as Support Weapon. I agree that since the platform is listed as Infantry, it should theoretically be able to move about and work all by itself, but the armory entry states that it can only fire if a Guardian from the same unit within 2" of it elects to fire with the platform instead of with his shuriken catapult, it also states specifically:

If there are no Guardians left in the unit, remove the heavy weapons platform as a casualty.

So, while it is really dumb, the platform ceases to exist the moment the KT rules make it a "unit unto itself" because no more guardians would be left in its unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The icons are used in place of the text in current Imperial Armour books. It's annoying, but the 'Fast Attack' and 'Eldar' stamps mean 'This unit may be taken as a Fast Attack choice in a Codex: Eldar army'. So yes, Shadow Spectres are allowed. What you're supposed to do with the Ghostlight rule is another question entirely.

That is a good way to argue it. Ghostlight, I just figured was a useless bauble inflating the model price (although the exarch with prism blaster can use it).

 AnomanderRake wrote:

The wording is specific to the platform, it doesn't have the Artillery type. In the context of Kill-Team 'unit' means two different things; the unit as purchased from the army list, or the unit as deployed on the table. Common sense I'd say that 'unit' in the weapon platform rule means 'unit as purchased from the army list' (and as such the platform can be used by any model in its original unit and is removed once all Guardians from its original unit are destroyed) because that's the interpretation that lets it actually shoot (if 'unit' is taken to mean 'unit in the game' the platform is only removed when it is killed itself and cannot be fired at all).

At this point, we are getting into RAW versus RAI territory. And, I am going to guess that if we asked GW, they would go with RAW since that has been their shtick recently. So just don't pay the points for the thing.

Honestly, I'm not going to use guardian defenders - I think storm guardians would be better (and I just assembled a whole batch of them, kitbashing included for all the options, so I am going to damn well use them for something).

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
Like I said, I'm going to check the codex after work, but Battlescribe does have the guardian heavy weapon turret listed as infantry, and I remember the codex having a special way of treating it since it's not artillery, but I can't remember the wording off the top of my head.

I think you're thinking of the Vaul's Wrath Support Battery, which actually comes with 2 crew members as you described.

No problem, but the rule I am recalling (see page 153 Codexç CWE for the rule) is definately for a Heavy Weapons Platform as listed in the guardian entry. Vaul's Wrath, being artillery, are different and are listed in codex as Support Weapon. I agree that since the platform is listed as Infantry, it should theoretically be able to move about and work all by itself, but the armory entry states that it can only fire if a Guardian from the same unit within 2" of it elects to fire with the platform instead of with his shuriken catapult, it also states specifically:

If there are no Guardians left in the unit, remove the heavy weapons platform as a casualty.

So, while it is really dumb, the platform ceases to exist the moment the KT rules make it a "unit unto itself" because no more guardians would be left in its unit.

Very much true. My bad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:

Honestly, I'm not going to use guardian defenders - I think storm guardians would be better (and I just assembled a whole batch of them, kitbashing included for all the options, so I am going to damn well use them for something).

I'm not using them either, I don't even have any guardians of any kind, just a bunch of rangers and dire avengers. I'm thinking right now my CWE kill team is gonna be Scorpions with an exarch and rangers.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Pskyers allowed, can my unit of Pink Horrors summon? Is summoning allowed? I would think it should be house ruled out...as very few armies/units have psykers in the elite, fast or troop options.

Conjuration powers explicitly don't work in KT. Basically 1/2 of Malefic Daemonology becomes useless.

Actually another odd question: A Hellflayer is a chariot taken as a Fast Attack choice. It's crewed by an Exalted Alluress, an Infantry (Character) model who is deployed embarked on the chariot and cannot disembark. Could I theoretically make the Exalted Alluress a specialist or a team leader?

(I don't know if this would be a good idea in practice, it may be a lot of eggs to dump into one 11-11-10 open-topped HP2 basket, but it'd be hilarious if it worked)

I don't see why not, if she has a leadership value higher than or equal to everything in the rest of your army.

My Armoured Sentinel with MC Plasma cannon is totally viable, MC because when I gave it Rage instead it blew itself up 3 times in a row during my first KT game :|

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

The wording is specific to the platform, it doesn't have the Artillery type. In the context of Kill-Team 'unit' means two different things; the unit as purchased from the army list, or the unit as deployed on the table. Common sense I'd say that 'unit' in the weapon platform rule means 'unit as purchased from the army list' (and as such the platform can be used by any model in its original unit and is removed once all Guardians from its original unit are destroyed) because that's the interpretation that lets it actually shoot (if 'unit' is taken to mean 'unit in the game' the platform is only removed when it is killed itself and cannot be fired at all).

At this point, we are getting into RAW versus RAI territory. And, I am going to guess that if we asked GW, they would go with RAW since that has been their shtick recently. So just don't pay the points for the thing.

Honestly, I'm not going to use guardian defenders - I think storm guardians would be better (and I just assembled a whole batch of them, kitbashing included for all the options, so I am going to damn well use them for something).

Sort of? This one probably deserves an FAQ entry (though it probably won't get one until Guardians get a new kit). Strict wording the platform can be purchased and deployed, but can't fire (since it never has models in its unit) and only gets removed from play when it gets killed itself (since there are no Guardians in its unit to be removed; the effect triggers on model death, not on units splitting up), but since GW makes the distinction in 40k itself (see: Combat Squads) and in Kill Team between 'unit as purchased' and 'unit as deployed' (though they use the same name for it) I don't think my reading is too far off.

(But yeah, *bleep* to Guardians. I've been playing Swordwind since I started this game and I'm not about to go try and figure out the rules for a band of upjumped history teachers and tax accountants when I've got the whole spectrum of psychic rainbow ninjas (well, most of it) to play with.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 malamis wrote:
I don't see why not, if she has a leadership value higher than or equal to everything in the rest of your army.

My Armoured Sentinel with MC Plasma cannon is totally viable, MC because when I gave it Rage instead it blew itself up 3 times in a row during my first KT game :|

Daemonettes have terrible Ld. The Exalted Alluress is running on the same 7 all Daemonettes, Seekers, Fiends, etc. are stuck with (only way to get higher in Slaanesh is to be an HQ choice)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Sort of? This one probably deserves an FAQ entry (though it probably won't get one until Guardians get a new kit). Strict wording the platform can be purchased and deployed, but can't fire (since it never has models in its unit) and only gets removed from play when it gets killed itself (since there are no Guardians in its unit to be removed; the effect triggers on model death, not on units splitting up), but since GW makes the distinction in 40k itself (see: Combat Squads) and in Kill Team between 'unit as purchased' and 'unit as deployed' (though they use the same name for it) I don't think my reading is too far off.

(But yeah, *bleep* to Guardians. I've been playing Swordwind since I started this game and I'm not about to go try and figure out the rules for a band of upjumped history teachers and tax accountants when I've got the whole spectrum of psychic rainbow ninjas (well, most of it) to play with.)

Huh, I had not thought of it that way. Having never played marines, I had never come across that entry, so I concede - you are right. I agree that it needs an FAQ and that it is dubious that it will get one anytime soon.

If I do run guardian defenders ever I might see if one of the platform gun options is cheap enough to be worth the hilariously tough but otherwise useless model - it might make a good shield for someone to hide behind. And it would be rather funny to get the "but why?" face out of my opponent if it ever occurred to them to ask why the platform never fires, lol.

(Aside: agreed, they are so not worth it, except as a "lol, I wanted to just because" silly game. Maybe I'll use them if/when we teach some of our friends KT.)

Surely you'd just houserule it so that a guardian can fire it within 2"? RAI that's how I'd play it.