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KingDeath wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
I think that's a good thing. Astartes are not too hot for the Big =I= and I always thought that DW, as well as GK, should be separated from that organisation. Sure, there would be ties, but the idea of an Inquisitor telling a Space Marine what to do is simply weak.

Yeah, can't have anyone bossing the oh so mighty spessmuhreens around.
But seriously, why shouldn't an Inquisitor of good standing and with a valid reason have the authority to give a spacemarine, especialy one who was created/ recruited especialy to serve the Ordos, orders?

Because a Space Marine is descended from one of the Sons of the Emperor Himself, while an Inquisitor is a mere human. The Imperium is a theocracy, after all.
The Deathwatch and Grey Knights are the Chambers Militant of the Inquisition, but let us not forget that the Inquisition is an informal organisation without fixed ranks and command structures. Everything depends on cooperation and request. The Chambers Militant do not serve anyone, they are just as free and independent as any other element of the Inquisition. They were set up to create a pool of dedicated knowledge (similar in the way the Ordos work) and make it more easier for Inquisitors to request specialist support. They were not set up to be a little private army at the beck and call of every little upstart Inquisitor in the galaxy waving his badge around.

Also, considering the extreme rarity of Space Marines it is likely that there are far more Inquisitors in the galaxy than there are members of the Deathwatch. This makes it logical that the Deathwatch can not answer every request it gets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
I think that's a good thing. Astartes are not too hot for the Big =I= and I always thought that DW, as well as GK, should be separated from that organisation. Sure, there would be ties, but the idea of an Inquisitor telling a Space Marine what to do is simply weak.

Inquisitors tell High Lords what to do. Astartes are no exception. Space Marines serve the Imperium, they do not rule it. In the wake of the Heresy, it is necessary that there be an Imperial body that can bring the Astartes to heel.

They don't. Inquisitors do not rule. They are secret policemen. They could arrest a High Lord if they have sufficient evidence that the High Lord has committed crimes, but they can't just walk into a High Lord's office and tell them what to do. The same goes for Space Marines. An Inquisitor has the authority to bring Astartes to heel if they commit heresy, but that does not mean he can lord it over the Astartes as if he were the Emperor Himself. Inquisitors are not rulers, that task falls to others within the Imperium.

Hasn't the Chamber Militant stuff been phased out now?

I have the feeling GW is preparing to squat the Inquisition in the 40K "endtimes". The emperor never liked to be seen as a god, so if he should wake up or the loyalist primarchs return, there will be strong opposition to the Inquisition. And there's a Black crusade going on that could destroy the Inquisition, too. GW split SoB, DW and GK off the Inquisition, so they are now probably the most insignificant force in 40K (miniature-wise). It would be easy to make them disappear now, they are nothing more than an allied force in the first place.

Tycho wrote:

I think it's important to note that the Deathwatch do NOT have the symbol of the Inquisition all over them.

I always thought Malcador's symbol was the capital letter "I" with two vertical lines on either side of the "I" and a stylized eye symbol in the middle. The Deathwatch all appear to have the proper Inquisition "I" , but with the addition of a skull in the middle. Is that just a different version of Malcador's symbol?

The symbol in its current context isn't actually an 'I' at all. It's a stylized pillar. The motif appears in a number of different organizations in the Imperium, and the implication seems to be that they descent from the Sigilite's symbol, which in turn is descended from that of the Emperor himself (in those days it may or have not actually been an 'I')

The Inquisition icon is the pillar with an encircled skulls and three bars on either side, the symbol of the Ecclesiarchy is the pillar with a skull encircled instead by a halo with five spines on either side. The arbites, administratum, and astra telepathica have symbols incorporating the pillar and a symbol in a circle.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

Tycho wrote:

I think it's important to note that the Deathwatch do NOT have the symbol of the Inquisition all over them.

I always thought Malcador's symbol was the capital letter "I" with two vertical lines on either side of the "I" and a stylized eye symbol in the middle. The Deathwatch all appear to have the proper Inquisition "I" , but with the addition of a skull in the middle. Is that just a different version of Malcador's symbol?

The symbol in its current context isn't actually an 'I' at all. It's a stylized pillar. The motif appears in a number of different organizations in the Imperium, and the implication seems to be that they descent from the Sigilite's symbol, which in turn is descended from that of the Emperor himself (in those days it may or have not actually been an 'I')

The Inquisition icon is the pillar with an encircled skulls and three bars on either side, the symbol of the Ecclesiarchy is the pillar with a skull encircled instead by a halo with five spines on either side. The arbites, administratum, and astra telepathica have symbols incorporating the pillar and a symbol in a circle.

Is there a reference for it being a pillar? I've read A LOT of rulebook lore and Black Library books and I can't recall it ever being referred to as a pillar... just that it's descended from Malcador's sigil.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I have the feeling GW is preparing to squat the Inquisition in the 40K "endtimes". The emperor never liked to be seen as a god, so if he should wake up or the loyalist primarchs return, there will be strong opposition to the Inquisition. And there's a Black crusade going on that could destroy the Inquisition, too. GW split SoB, DW and GK off the Inquisition, so they are now probably the most insignificant force in 40K (miniature-wise). It would be easy to make them disappear now, they are nothing more than an allied force in the first place.

just because he's opposed to being worshipped as a god doesn't mean he'll ditch the inqusition. I imagine he'll see a benift to secret police. the term Inqusition is something we think of as having a religious connotation, but it doesn't have to.

 Kriswall wrote:
Is there a reference for it being a pillar? I've read A LOT of rulebook lore and Black Library books and I can't recall it ever being referred to as a pillar... just that it's descended from Malcador's sigil.

Full disclosure: I got that little tidbit from here, I think. Might have gotten it from the dark heresy core book, but I'll check and confirm.

My point was the symbol has wide use beyond organizations like the Inquisition, Grey Knights and Administratum that trace it back to his seal. Some of which, like the Ecclesiarchy probably wouldn't have such a symbol if it came from him.

 Kanluwen wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

The complete opposite is true surrounding Astartes. They know the Deathwatch exists. Right down to Battle Brothers and Scout Initiates.
Why? Because Chapters have elaborate send-off ceremonies for those members who have been inducted into the Deathwatch.

Definitely. But they don't necessarily know how to contact them - certainly not within a militarily useful timescale - other than asking the Ordo Xenos for help.

Again, that's not true.

The returning members of Deathwatch would know where to find a Watch Fortress to send communications to. They don't get mind-wiped or anything after returning to their parent Chapter.

Nope, I couldn't give a source off the top of my head, but a marine is sworn to uphold the secrets of the deathwatch upon reintegration back with the chapter. That includes the location of the Watch Fortresses and I assume contacting them outside of what would be deemed protocol. That last thing the inquisition wants and other space marine chapters is a chapter going rogue and deciding to nuke a watch fortress.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

The complete opposite is true surrounding Astartes. They know the Deathwatch exists. Right down to Battle Brothers and Scout Initiates.
Why? Because Chapters have elaborate send-off ceremonies for those members who have been inducted into the Deathwatch.

Definitely. But they don't necessarily know how to contact them - certainly not within a militarily useful timescale - other than asking the Ordo Xenos for help.

Again, that's not true.

The returning members of Deathwatch would know where to find a Watch Fortress to send communications to. They don't get mind-wiped or anything after returning to their parent Chapter.

Nope, I couldn't give a source off the top of my head, but a marine is sworn to uphold the secrets of the deathwatch upon reintegration back with the chapter. That includes the location of the Watch Fortresses and I assume contacting them outside of what would be deemed protocol. That last thing the inquisition wants and other space marine chapters is a chapter going rogue and deciding to nuke a watch fortress.

if a chapter goes rogue do you think the ex-Death watch members are gonna care about keeping their oaths in that regard? we also know for a FACT that the Ultramarines leadership knows the location of at least one watch fortress. granted this watch fortress is in their territory and was proably tithed when it was formed so could be an exception, but so far there's no evidance space marine leadership doesn't know where the local watch fortress is

I am going to try to find the original Deathwatch lore from the early editions later tonight, and I think it will settle a lot of this.

I don't think that untying these other Armies from the Inquisition is part of some long arcing master plan for advancing the timeline. This month's White Dwarf was inviting readers to write in and answer the question "the Emperor, is he alive or dead?". That leadsme to nelieve they don't have a plan for that yet at all.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

The complete opposite is true surrounding Astartes. They know the Deathwatch exists. Right down to Battle Brothers and Scout Initiates.
Why? Because Chapters have elaborate send-off ceremonies for those members who have been inducted into the Deathwatch.

Definitely. But they don't necessarily know how to contact them - certainly not within a militarily useful timescale - other than asking the Ordo Xenos for help.

Again, that's not true.

The returning members of Deathwatch would know where to find a Watch Fortress to send communications to. They don't get mind-wiped or anything after returning to their parent Chapter.

Nope, I couldn't give a source off the top of my head, but a marine is sworn to uphold the secrets of the deathwatch upon reintegration back with the chapter. That includes the location of the Watch Fortresses and I assume contacting them outside of what would be deemed protocol. That last thing the inquisition wants and other space marine chapters is a chapter going rogue and deciding to nuke a watch fortress.

If a Space Marine Chapter can nuke a Watch Fortress, one of the most heavily defended structures in the Imperium (think Fortress Monastery, but generally BETTER), I'd be VERY worried about how that Chapter even has the strength to do that.

Seriously, I doubt a rogue Chapter could wipe out Erioch.

 Ashiraya wrote:

It feels like I have quoted the Chapter Master entry from Codex: Space Marines a billion times now, but it still very explicitly states that a CM is answerable only to others of his kind.

The example of Badab shows otherwise. If a SM Chapter starts building up far beyond its allowed limits, starts carving out its own private empire, starts preventing other parts of the Imperium from fulfilling their tithe obligations, refuses to comply with genetic testing, and fires on other Imperial ships to "protect their rights and prerogatives as Space Marines answerable to no one", then the rest of the Imperium does notice. It didn't go well for the Astral Claws.


As I previously posted on the 1st page of this thread, there is a difference between what is allowed technically by the letter of the law and what is truly realistically possible. An Inquisitor in theory is answerable to no one except the Emperor, not even the High Lords. In theory, a newly minted Inquisitor could demand the arrest and execution of all the High Lords of Terra and he would technically be within his rights. In reality such a demand would get nowhere, and the Inquisitor might get assassinated or dismissed as insane.

In theory Space Marine Chapters are autonomous and answerable to no one except the Emperor. However a Space Marine Chapter that flagrantly builds its own power base or treats the rest of the Imperium with contempt is likely in for trouble down the line. The First Founding Chapters, those with a big legacy, can probably get away with more, but your average Chapter would have to at least pay some lip service to upholding and cooperating with the rest of the Imperium.

I don't think discussions of where regular Astartes Chapters sit in terms of the chain of command in relation to the Inquisition is especially relevant here. They are not a Chamber Militant of the Inquisition, and the Deathwatch is, or was at least anyways...


Does anyone have a copy of Index Astartes Vol II? I think the first substantial piece of fluff on Deathwatch is in there. Wikia and Lexicanum are inconclusive on the origin and chain of command stuff. They do confirm it is an Inquisitorial "I" on the shoulder though, and the very top of the Wikia page mentions something about the Deathwatch "serving" the Ordo Xenos.

Iracundus wrote:
It didn't go well for the Astral Claws.

It looks like they had to answer to others of their kind. Which, you know, is what they did. The Badab war was very much an Astartes conflict.

The Badab War was framed by the Astral Claws and their allies as Space Marines defending their autonomy. The Marines fighting the Astral Claws were fighting to put down a secessionist rebellion (which is what Marine autonomy taken too far can become).

Marines put down Marine rebellions because it is a stain on their honor and record. Politically it also threatens the autonomy of other Chapters if Marines are seen to rebel, carve out empires, and get away with it, as then the rest of the Imperium might act to put all the Marines on a tighter leash if Marines don't police each other.

Basically Marines of whatever stripe, Deathwatch included, have to play ball with the rest of the Imperium, at least some of the time. The Imperium's institutions are fragmented to prevent another large scale Heresy, so that whatever fragment rebels can be crushed by the combined might of the other Imperial institutions. Space Marine Chapters wouldn't be able to stand against the entire Imperium indefinitely if they did rebel. The Soul Drinkers are an example.