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Bolters being rapid fire is just a kick in the power armored jimmies. Thanks for all the CC stats that we can't use, GW! Ork shootas are better than boltguns, which is definitely not in the fluff. Of course, neither is Eldar face-rolling the universe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/29 14:20:56
Well for starters, it is a "man" portable version of this: And oddly, many ammo mixes can be made to work in a vacuum. The other thing is all kinds of madness for the rounds could be easily explained. Like a beehive round: Or other kinds of fancy rounds from HEAT armor piercing to phosphorous and other fun stuff:
Plus, a movie called "Runaway" (1984, Rogue Trader came out in 1987) showed off a fancy gun of similar type: Kinda cheesy video but neat idea (a guided bullet!):
Spoiler:
Makes the Deathwatch / Sternguard special ammo not seem all that far off.
Now if we want to get into completely the reason of fluff: it is a dependable highly destructive round. Even if say it's solid propellant in the round does not fire, the explosive discharge from the gun would be enough to be destructive (but decidedly less range and speed). Explosive rounds have great utility: suppression, cover removal, lighting up the enemy both with muzzle flash and the following explosion, unaffected by dust and anything else that would hamper laser weapons. Some mention is made that the sound itself is rather suppressive never mind the nasty impact and blowing up from the inside... You can focus more on modification and improvements of the round rather than the gun. A marine is pretty much a walking tank (in the literature) so they needed a suitable portable cannon.
Martel732 wrote: Bolters being rapid fire is just a kick in the power armored jimmies. Thanks for all the CC stats that we can't use, GW! Ork shootas are better than boltguns, which is definitely not in the fluff. Of course, neither is Eldar face-rolling the universe.
And ork shootas cost more. On a bs2 platform. That's most likely footslogging and ain't using shootas before assault for fear of actually killing something and getting out of range.
Martel732 wrote: Bolters being rapid fire is just a kick in the power armored jimmies. Thanks for all the CC stats that we can't use, GW! Ork shootas are better than boltguns, which is definitely not in the fluff. Of course, neither is Eldar face-rolling the universe.
And ork shootas cost more. On a bs2 platform. That's most likely footslogging and ain't using shootas before assault for fear of actually killing something and getting out of range.
Sure, marines deserve everything like op psy powers, getting free benefical rules upon point discounts and now shreding bolters. Aren't you spoiled enough allready?
I am a CSM player.
Go ahead, tell me how spoiled I am.
Unfortunately, you have to be sacraficed for the greater good cause if you get a bolter buff, you'd be mediocre. But if sm get the same buff (and they will if you do) than they'd get even more op. Than gw will strip your bolter bonus away and sm will get an additional buff from what's cannibalized from what good your codex once had (lib conclave). Sorry CSM players.
Hell no. Everything that makes SMOP (Grav, psychic shenanigans, allies, mass MSU...) are things that would not really be affected by a bolter buff. Even a demicompany hard MSU list that goes all in on spamming obsec still won't do any real damage - the basic Tactical Marine is a rather bad model actually - and nerfing what actually is a problem with SM is a separate topic entirely.
Martel732 wrote: Bolters being rapid fire is just a kick in the power armored jimmies. Thanks for all the CC stats that we can't use, GW! Ork shootas are better than boltguns, which is definitely not in the fluff. Of course, neither is Eldar face-rolling the universe.
And ork shootas cost more. On a bs2 platform. That's most likely footslogging and ain't using shootas before assault for fear of actually killing something and getting out of range.
I'd actually use Tactical Marines if they had Shootas. Or at least got access to double special weapons because the 1 Special 1 Heavy rule is super bad.
Also Orks don't have issues with charging and will use Shootas to make sure they win the combat. The trick is getting close enough because Orks have very little durability.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I always wondered why every army has its own rules for its basic weapon, except Marines.
Tau, many many options to buff the rifle
Guard, orders
Eldar, bladestorm
Orks, ok nothing here
Necrons, gauss
Nids: many options of a basic weapon
Chaos Marines, same as Marines
Ok so not everyone, but a majority have rules to either adapt or buff the basic weapon of there army, I thought Marines would get something, not a complaint, just something to buff it slightly.
Formosa wrote: I always wondered why every army has its own rules for its basic weapon, except Marines.
Tau, many many options to buff the rifle
Guard, orders
Eldar, bladestorm
Orks, ok nothing here
Necrons, gauss
Nids: many options of a basic weapon
Chaos Marines, same as Marines
Ok so not everyone, but a majority have rules to either adapt or buff the basic weapon of there army, I thought Marines would get something, not a complaint, just something to buff it slightly.
You could say that all the Ork weapons have Assault so that they can always charge. That's close to a special rule.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
In game, boltguns aren't "bad" if you compare it to a large amount of the game that exists on paper. The problem is that what exists on paper isn't what actually gets played in game.
Boltguns are not effective against common, spammable T5 or T6 units like bikes. They are also not effective against T4 bikes that have relentless and spam HROF S6 shots from 36 inches away.
They are not effective against T8 models. They are not effective against super heavy vehicles. They're not effective against fliers, invisible units, things with rerollable saves...
In other words. They're not effective against pretty much most of the gak that's spammed by power gamers.
The solution isn't to buff the bolter. The solution is to nerf other things. Nerf them to such a degree that the power gamers cry.
For starters, take away the +1 toughness and relentless bonus that bikes get. Bikes shouldn't have that. The fact that they get jink and enhanced mobility is already worth the 7 points that most models pay for them anyway. And you know what? If it's on a bike, it should never be able to be taken as a troop choice.
In fact, while we're on the subject?
Only vehicles and monstrous creatures should have relentless. Period. There. I said it.
Martel732 wrote: Bolters being rapid fire is just a kick in the power armored jimmies. Thanks for all the CC stats that we can't use, GW! Ork shootas are better than boltguns, which is definitely not in the fluff. Of course, neither is Eldar face-rolling the universe.
And ork shootas cost more. On a bs2 platform. That's most likely footslogging and ain't using shootas before assault for fear of actually killing something and getting out of range.
I'd actually use Tactical Marines if they had Shootas. Or at least got access to double special weapons because the 1 Special 1 Heavy rule is super bad.
Also Orks don't have issues with charging and will use Shootas to make sure they win the combat. The trick is getting close enough because Orks have very little durability.
Why is this even a thing? In a CAD, you can take up to 6 tactical squads. In a gladius, you must take either 3 or 6. From 6th edition onwards, you don't have to take a full 10 men squad to take either a special or heavy weapon.
Why is this even a complaint?
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2016/09/29 16:22:23
"he solution isn't to buff the bolter. The solution is to nerf other things. "
That's not happening for fear of a neckbeard revolt. The only hope you've got is a 3rd ed style reboot, wherein the cycle begins all over again.
"The problem is that what exists on paper isn't what actually gets played in game."
Gauss and shuriken weapons remain useful across a huge range of opponents. Even lasguns are more easily buffed to usefulness because of their cheapness.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/29 18:04:56
The bolter was the best for the task at hand. And marine strength and armour kinda renders recoil mute, weight mute. They can easily carry and use such a heavy weapon.
Traditio wrote: In game, boltguns aren't "bad" if you compare it to a large amount of the game that exists on paper. The problem is that what exists on paper isn't what actually gets played in game.
Boltguns are not effective against common, spammable T5 or T6 units like bikes. They are also not effective against T4 bikes that have relentless and spam HROF S6 shots from 36 inches away.
They are not effective against T8 models. They are not effective against super heavy vehicles. They're not effective against fliers, invisible units, things with rerollable saves...
In other words. They're not effective against pretty much most of the gak that's spammed by power gamers.
The solution isn't to buff the bolter. The solution is to nerf other things. Nerf them to such a degree that the power gamers cry.
For starters, take away the +1 toughness and relentless bonus that bikes get. Bikes shouldn't have that. The fact that they get jink and enhanced mobility is already worth the 7 points that most models pay for them anyway. And you know what? If it's on a bike, it should never be able to be taken as a troop choice.
In fact, while we're on the subject?
Only vehicles and monstrous creatures should have relentless. Period. There. I said it.
Martel732 wrote: Bolters being rapid fire is just a kick in the power armored jimmies. Thanks for all the CC stats that we can't use, GW! Ork shootas are better than boltguns, which is definitely not in the fluff. Of course, neither is Eldar face-rolling the universe.
And ork shootas cost more. On a bs2 platform. That's most likely footslogging and ain't using shootas before assault for fear of actually killing something and getting out of range.
I'd actually use Tactical Marines if they had Shootas. Or at least got access to double special weapons because the 1 Special 1 Heavy rule is super bad.
Also Orks don't have issues with charging and will use Shootas to make sure they win the combat. The trick is getting close enough because Orks have very little durability.
Why is this even a thing? In a CAD, you can take up to 6 tactical squads. In a gladius, you must take either 3 or 6. From 6th edition onwards, you don't have to take a full 10 men squad to take either a special or heavy weapon.
Why is this even a complaint?
Because 10 man squads is fluffy, and for them to be relegated to 1 each means I can't do that without them being the most cost ineffective thing ever. I don't want to put Grav Cannons on my Tactical Marines and won't. I'm strictly a Biker man because of this.
Even incorporating Combat squads is a lame justification because how you can take several CADs.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Personally, I've always wondered why the standard-issue marine weapon was one that can't reliably pierce the armor of their greatest foes - CSM (and vice-versa; you'd think at least the Chaos guys would get smart enough to up-gun their weapons).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/29 21:00:29
Stormonu wrote: Personally, I've always wondered why the standard-issue marine weapon was one that can't reliably pierce the armor of their greatest foes - CSM (and vice-versa; you'd think at least the Chaos guys would get smart enough to up-gun their weapons).
They kinda do with special issue ammo. Though, it seems that the humanitie's greatest foes wear 5+ and 6+ armor. Like orks, tyranids and most importantly other humans.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/29 21:11:24
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Stormonu wrote: Personally, I've always wondered why the standard-issue marine weapon was one that can't reliably pierce the armor of their greatest foes - CSM (and vice-versa; you'd think at least the Chaos guys would get smart enough to up-gun their weapons).
Because they have been using them for far longer than they have been fighting each other?
It is also exceedingly rare for the two to encounter each other. It is a big galaxy. Against most foes the bolter is a more than adequate weapon.
Stormonu wrote: Personally, I've always wondered why the standard-issue marine weapon was one that can't reliably pierce the armor of their greatest foes - CSM (and vice-versa; you'd think at least the Chaos guys would get smart enough to up-gun their weapons).
Space marines and the boltgun predate chaos marines, and chaos marines are far, far, far from what regular marines would typically face?
Stormonu wrote: Personally, I've always wondered why the standard-issue marine weapon was one that can't reliably pierce the armor of their greatest foes - CSM (and vice-versa; you'd think at least the Chaos guys would get smart enough to up-gun their weapons).
Works on nearly anything though.
CSM are not only foe.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
For something so prevalent in the fluff, you'd think the boltgun would have been made at least an average firearm on the tabletop, instead of turning off half the marine's statline.
kronk wrote:In the lore, bolters are very effective and cool.
On the table top, they are not very wonderful, even with the Imperial Fists chapter tactic that rerolls 1s.
Shred would be nice. Rending might be a bit much.
Rember all the lore is written from a human perspective and the one thing bolters are pretty good at killing are the humans and guardsmen. From an in universe perspective the greatest majority of enemies Marine deal with are probably chaos cultists and other soft squishy enemies. The table top allows a greater proportion of the bigger stuff than marines would likely to counter on a more average mission.
Stormonu wrote: Personally, I've always wondered why the standard-issue marine weapon was one that can't reliably pierce the armor of their greatest foes - CSM (and vice-versa; you'd think at least the Chaos guys would get smart enough to up-gun their weapons).
During the great crusade, while the space marines spent a lot of time purging aliens, they were also subjugating human populations and Bolters are pretty good at killing guardsmen and other similar human soldiers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/29 22:12:40
Talizvar wrote: Well for starters, it is a "man" portable version of this:
And oddly, many ammo mixes can be made to work in a vacuum.
The other thing is all kinds of madness for the rounds could be easily explained.
Like a beehive round:
Or other kinds of fancy rounds from HEAT armor piercing to phosphorous and other fun stuff:
Plus, a movie called "Runaway" (1984, Rogue Trader came out in 1987) showed off a fancy gun of similar type:
Kinda cheesy video but neat idea (a guided bullet!):
Spoiler:
Makes the Deathwatch / Sternguard special ammo not seem all that far off.
Now if we want to get into completely the reason of fluff: it is a dependable highly destructive round.
Even if say it's solid propellant in the round does not fire, the explosive discharge from the gun would be enough to be destructive (but decidedly less range and speed).
Explosive rounds have great utility: suppression, cover removal, lighting up the enemy both with muzzle flash and the following explosion, unaffected by dust and anything else that would hamper laser weapons.
Some mention is made that the sound itself is rather suppressive never mind the nasty impact and blowing up from the inside...
You can focus more on modification and improvements of the round rather than the gun.
A marine is pretty much a walking tank (in the literature) so they needed a suitable portable cannon.
A 40mm grenade would carry almost 4 times the volume of explosive a .75cal bolter shell could. There are also fundamental differences in the ballistics of both weapons. A grenade launcher is lobbing its projectile, a bolter is firing a projectile straight on.All the virtues of a grenade launcher you describe is why a weapon like that wouldn't necessary make for a good primary weapon and would make it tactically challenging for a space marine to be a walking tank. If anything is like the Mk19 its the "Frag Launchers" that Blood Angels and Daethwatch have.
There are aspects of a bolter that make it an amazing weapon in the role it serves, but it's shells aren't grenades. A grenade is indiscriminate unlike a bolter. The bolter straddles the line between a low-pressure high caliber cannon and a micro-rocket launcher. From personal experience I can tell you that such a .75cal explosive tipped projectile could penetrate the hardened aluminum armor common to light armored vehicles. Like the bolter can. A projectile of that size could do a lot of the things its been described as doing.
The closest thing we've achieved with modern tech to a Bolter is the AA 12.
It's not a gyrojet weapon, however it is a 12 gauge shotgun that fires full automatic and also has specialty made grenade rounds (Yes, you read that right, shotgun fired grenades) that work amazingly similarly to a boltgun
Here's a clip:
And a longer clip showing the grenade round:
Yea. Safe to say, I want one.
Imagine a squad of soldiers packing these with a mix of armor piercing, high exposive, and fragmentation rounds. Pretty damned terrifying if you ask me.
As for the thread, as others have said, the Bolter is the most effective while being easiest to manufacture and repair as well as fulfill ammunition requirements for a protracted battle or campaign.
Anyway, that's my contribution. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.
Also, remember that the Bolter (and Space Marines for that matter) was a mass produced tool for the Great Crusade. During which, the Bolter, and its explosive round, was used to great effect against mostly lightly armored foes like Humans, Eldar, Orks.
Red__Thirst wrote: The closest thing we've achieved with modern tech to a Bolter is the AA 12.
It's not a gyrojet weapon, however it is a 12 gauge shotgun that fires full automatic and also has specialty made grenade rounds (Yes, you read that right, shotgun fired grenades) that work amazingly similarly to a boltgun
Here's a clip:
And a longer clip showing the grenade round:
Yea. Safe to say, I want one.
Imagine a squad of soldiers packing these with a mix of armor piercing, high exposive, and fragmentation rounds. Pretty damned terrifying if you ask me.
As for the thread, as others have said, the Bolter is the most effective while being easiest to manufacture and repair as well as fulfill ammunition requirements for a protracted battle or campaign.
Anyway, that's my contribution. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
I was going to post the same thing. That's probably the closest, the only thing missing is the self propelled part.
Given that the other common firearms in the Imperium are either Lasguns or Autoguns, the Bolter is more effective.
Also, the most common enemies for Marines to fight are statistically either renegade IG/PDF, or Orks. Bolters have that S4 for Orks, and AP 5 for Guard. The next most common foe is probably Gaunts, and Bolters will work fine for those too.
