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Because Clearing did not solve the Problem on some browser because the issue was a wrong security code saved in the settings (some could access the forum with a private tab while were not able to get in with a standard one).
upgrades to the browser changed those, but for me it took about a year to get back in until I found somewhere on the web that I need to change the SiteSecurityServiceState.txt file to get the forum working on firefox.

While 9th age is a noble effort, I think it's doomed.

it is nice for those that liked the 8th edition of warhammer and therefore all those that just wanted a more balanced version of it
I won't say it is doomed, but I don't see it growing either

 kodos wrote:

While 9th age is a noble effort, I think it's doomed.

it is nice for those that liked the 8th edition of warhammer and therefore all those that just wanted a more balanced version of it
I won't say it is doomed, but I don't see it growing either

Interestingly, T9A seems to be on route to distancing itself more from the WHFB 8th ed roots. Streamlining magic etc.

It seems like it's sort of getting closer to the design philosophy of KoW but still retaining much of the Warhammer-ish clutter that differentiates it for better and worse.

newest version of T9A is up and it seems that they want to make their own game now instead of just a rebalanced 8th.

at the moment most people here don't like the change because they don't want to have a new game (and changing rules just for the sake of changing something without adressing balancing problems is one thing people did not like about GW) while those I know playing the game are only using it instead of KoW because it is the official ETC Fantasy ruleset (and therefore making local tournaments etc.)

For me, all those things I did not like about Warhammer are still there, so I prefer KoW.

Back to KoW, thje UK Clash of Kings 2016 was this week-end, and the feedback of players seems very positive from what I read.

Let's note that Daniel King, the 2015 champion/title holder and member of the RC (Darklord on the official forums) ended 3rd with a Herd list (a nice custom made cat-themed army) that didn't include any lightning bolt or breath attacks, and only one flying unit, showing that you don't need them to be competitive (well, he still had a nice fast and manoeuvrable army)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Results of the Clash of Kings :

I like his Cat-themed army, using the Mantic Succubi with cat heads was an great idea and showed the possibilities of those models.

the exact list can be found here
http://vb.manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kow-armies/the-herd/270368-cat-themed-herd?p=300734#post300734

 kodos wrote:
newest version of T9A is up and it seems that they want to make their own game now instead of just a rebalanced 8th.

at the moment most people here don't like the change because they don't want to have a new game (and changing rules just for the sake of changing something without adressing balancing problems is one thing people did not like about GW) while those I know playing the game are only using it instead of KoW because it is the official ETC Fantasy ruleset (and therefore making local tournaments etc.)

For me, all those things I did not like about Warhammer are still there, so I prefer KoW.

It seems like the T9A community is in a bit of an uproar indeed. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

Unfortunately I suspect most people unhappy with the changes won't primarily go to KoW, as any of the good changes seems to me to be taking T9A closer to KoW anyway.
KoW has a free'er army construction system I guess. T9A seems hamstrung by that weird notion of "core-tax"; knowingly and deliberately (!) having core troops be underpowered for their points and forcing lists to use a certain % of them. I much prefer the KoW philosophy of having total freedom of choice between the different unit-blocks but aspiring for the rules to encourage the use of different types of units.

jtrowell wrote:
Back to KoW, thje UK Clash of Kings 2016 was this week-end, and the feedback of players seems very positive from what I read.

Let's note that Daniel King, the 2015 champion/title holder and member of the RC (Darklord on the official forums) ended 3rd with a Herd list (a nice custom made cat-themed army) that didn't include any lightning bolt or breath attacks, and only one flying unit, showing that you don't need them to be competitive (well, he still had a nice fast and manoeuvrable army)[/img]

Also worth noting that the two Elf armies who came 1st and 2nd were (so I've read on facebook) wildly different, with one a gunline backed by drakons, and the other a balanced list based around... forest shamblers I think? Can't find the post.

Would like to see the army list of the top 10, just to get ideas and it would help to explain people that there is not one faction with one list that dominates

 Zywus wrote:

It seems like the T9A community is in a bit of an uproar indeed. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

Unfortunately I suspect most people unhappy with the changes won't primarily go to KoW, as any of the good changes seems to me to be taking T9A closer to KoW anyway.
KoW has a free'er army construction system I guess. T9A seems hamstrung by that weird notion of "core-tax"; knowingly and deliberately (!) having core troops be underpowered for their points and forcing lists to use a certain % of them. I much prefer the KoW philosophy of having total freedom of choice between the different unit-blocks but aspiring for the rules to encourage the use of different types of units.

I don't think someone will switch from T9A to KoW just because of changes. Not as long as the local tournament scene is dominated by T9A.
But to gain new players and to attract ex-warhammer players, who don't care that much about tournaments, doing things the "GW-way" won't help.

And yes, army construction is done the old Warhammer way, you are forced to take underpowerd/overpriced/weak units as "core" to balance the overpowered units.
Also there is only one or two concept per faction that really works.

Compared to KoW, an infantry based army, without monsters, war machines and magic will not work in T9A while it is a solid concept for some factions in KoW.

List building is still the most important part their, so all those who like this will never switch to KoW because they will miss the most important part

 kodos wrote:
Would like to see the army list of the top 10, just to get ideas and it would help to explain people that there is not one faction with one list that dominates

 Zywus wrote:

It seems like the T9A community is in a bit of an uproar indeed. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

Unfortunately I suspect most people unhappy with the changes won't primarily go to KoW, as any of the good changes seems to me to be taking T9A closer to KoW anyway.
KoW has a free'er army construction system I guess. T9A seems hamstrung by that weird notion of "core-tax"; knowingly and deliberately (!) having core troops be underpowered for their points and forcing lists to use a certain % of them. I much prefer the KoW philosophy of having total freedom of choice between the different unit-blocks but aspiring for the rules to encourage the use of different types of units.

I don't think someone will switch from T9A to KoW just because of changes. Not as long as the local tournament scene is dominated by T9A.
But to gain new players and to attract ex-warhammer players, who don't care that much about tournaments, doing things the "GW-way" won't help.

And yes, army construction is done the old Warhammer way, you are forced to take underpowerd/overpriced/weak units as "core" to balance the overpowered units.
Also there is only one or two concept per faction that really works.

Compared to KoW, an infantry based army, without monsters, war machines and magic will not work in T9A while it is a solid concept for some factions in KoW.

List building is still the most important part their, so all those who like this will never switch to KoW because they will miss the most important part

I don't understand why they don't just endeavor to have every unit balanced for it's points? That way they don't need to restrict how people construct their armies in way the new rules apparently do.

But as you allude to. The whole fiddling of minutia in list-building and loads and loads of IMO generally unnecessary auto-take / auto-leave special rules on everything seems to be what a big chunk of that community is after. At least those who are most loudly opposing the 1.2 changes. To me, basically everything they've changed looks like improvements to me, but then again I'm primarily a KoW player so the whole reason many is liking T9A probably is all that clutter that they try to clean up now.

My 5th place Abyssals list:

#15 Trident Realms >> http://vb.manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kow-armies/neriticans/292099-coral-reef-trident-realms-neritican-army?p=300456#post300456
(plus blog)

#6 Undead >> https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14691143_10206568243759661_7117899328008191586_n.jpg?oh=91d84d80aa2e14f3d142ab5793dae04b&oe=5898E19C

Trying to find the more unconventional Elves list, saw it come up on FB the other day ...

- Salvage

I like that Abyssal list. Our local meta is so focused on high De units, that it is nice to see armies that can perform well without running all De 5 & 6 units.

I recall seeing the top elf list and wondering how on earth it did well since it did not seem to have very good synergy at all. The guy playing it must have been pretty good.

The CoK results do IMO speak of the game being in a good state as pertains to balance.

The top 10 consists of 8 different factions (10 factions in the top 15 and 12 factions in the top 20) and judging from the top-lists I've seen so far, there looks to be a pretty decent variations within the lists as well. There's troops, regiments and hordes all present. Infantry, Cavalry and Large Inf/Cav. There's also decent amount of flyers despite the CoK-rules reigning their mobility in a bit.


Some of the assumed imbalances seems corroborated by the results. Orcs struggle to get good placements despite many players using them for example. But all in all, the game seems to be in good health.

I'm sure people have seen it already, but I didn't see it on Dakka.

Here's the winning elf list:

=========================

Horde o' Archers, heart seeking

Troop of Silverbreeze Cav
Troop of Silverbreeze Cav

Horde of Drakon, caterpillar

Bolt thrower

Dragon Lord, armor

it's about it get interesting guys:

Tree Herder, medallion of life

The Green Lady

Green lady's wild guard

=======================

I really like the list, I can see it being very difficult in scenarios.

840 points is defense 6. 1130 is defense 5+.

With heal 8 flying around? That's tough.

I wonder... how balanced is the game if you don't use any hordes?

Depending on your concept it works quite well.
Having a fast MSU list can give a Horde list hard times

but than there are elves that seems to be a little too good with flying hordes

I think people need more fast chaff to deal with elves.

Herd are probably the best army to do it.

My gargoyles work well against them with TK, so I think Abyssal Dwarfs and maybe Abyssals would do well also.

I have no experience with Abyssals though, but I do know that basusu and the gargoyles (great band name) are very good at disordering elven archers, or stripping TC from their drakons. Or even just setting up favorable charges with slower units behind them.

I actually learned to play KoW at Gen Con with an Orc list and i liked them, though if i was making the list i would spam the basic Def 5+ troops as i like durable infantry. Really im not seeing why Orcs are having problems, they are reasonably durable and they hit hard. Hell they can be pretty fast too with Gore Riders (who i love). Their biggest hole seems to be Range honestly, and id just grab some Goblins to shore that up.

Orcs seem to do better in the US than the UK, and most of the complaining seems to be coming from the UK. We've seen them win a fair few events over there against some stiff competition, and we've got a group of US players who've said they're at the least interested in switching over to Orcs for next years events.

It's always very hard to see whether there's a genuine issue with something or if it's just internet hyperbole. Towards the end of the 2nd ed public playtest we were hearing about how our latest changes to shooting were THE WORST THING EVER NOW NO-ONE WILL TAKE ANY SHOOTING, and yet shooting has gone on to be one of the strongest aspects of the game. We were told that Ratkin were horrendously underpowered, yet they're one of the strongest lists out there. We are told that KoM are useless and no-one would ever take them, yet this years CoK winner is building a KoM army and is perfectly happy with their army list.

We were told repeatedly that Elves were the most broken, most abusable army list that dominates everything and every other army is useless by comparison. Yet until this years CoK, they didn't really win events. Did well, yes, but not event winners.

At the moment Orcs are well represented in the US and in the hands of proven players do perfectly well. In the UK they're under-represented and never seem to be in the hands of proven players. It could be because the top players have tried Orcs and found them not to be competitive, or it could be because they're listening to internet hyperbole.

For the record, my 41st-place Abyssal list was the one that everyone online was complaining about. For months.

90 breath attack, 30 piercing ranged attacks, 7 lightning bolt.

Figured it was worth a shot to see if the complaints were valid, and while it did win a local tournament of 10 players it didn't cut it for top-tier play.

Looks scary on paper, and did brute force through 3 games, but here's how it lost 3 times:

- Being swarmed with hard individuals and flyers (mounted vampire lord, wraiths and dragon) targeting efreets and nothing else. De 6+ is a hard counter to breath attack.
- Height 2 shooting - Goblin fleabag sniffs allied to an Orc army. Surprisingly effective!
- Flank attack - Opponent simply moved backwards out of range with their centre and swung all the fast hard hitters around a huge piece of impassable terrain to all charge at once.

Everyone that I lost to had a physical chess chock rather than using an app. That's the one true indicator that the person you're playing really knows their stuff. :p

The game is very nicely balanced. I think Orcs need some shooting support from goblin allies to work competitively at a high level. I notice most use of allies tends to be to add firepower options to an army.

Orcs definitely need more units simply for flavor and variety. They have the least total units and the least variation between units.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Orcs definitely need more units simply for flavor and variety. They have the least total units and the least variation between units.

Indeed, I was initially put off of KoW as my primary WFB army is Orcs and the KoW list is boring as counting rocks.

 scarletsquig wrote:
For the record, my 41st-place Abyssal list was the one that everyone online was complaining about. For months.

90 breath attack, 30 piercing ranged attacks, 7 lightning bolt.

Figured it was worth a shot to see if the complaints were valid, and while it did win a local tournament of 10 players it didn't cut it for top-tier play.

I did the same thing. Gradually my army evolved from 80 Breath Attack, 40 of which had piercing, and 20 Firebolt and has dropped down to 40 Breath Attack, 20 of which is Piercing, and an incidental 5 Lightning Bolt - though the Lightning Bolt is just a "freebie" since it's Ba'El that I want. Each step in reducing the spam made my army stronger.

We also saw another player take the 90 breath attack list to the elemental kings tournament and place 16th out of 26.

I found that while it's nice to crunch the numbers on how much damage the list can kick out, actually getting into a position where you can fire a full volley is incredibly difficult. Often you're having to hide your Efreet from enemy individuals or breath attack sources that are a significant threat, such as War Trombones (they shred De4, Ne 11/13 units). When you're hiding, you can't fire to full effect, if at all after having to move At The Double or out of LOS.

Then you have the issue of scenario. My biggest losses have been because my opponent recognised that I had very few units that could score because all my points were pumped into Efreet. So they took out my scoring units and I auto-lost.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Orcs definitely need more units simply for flavor and variety. They have the least total units and the least variation between units.

I agree. They have a solid core, and i am perfectly happy with what they have, but then again im happy with a bunch of infantry just pounding down the field. I've always thought some Orc Crossbowmen called Bolt Chuckas could be fun. Maybe a Troop of Orc Shamans that use Firebolts.

Theres definitely some room for a couple of more guys there.

I will have to agree that Orcs might indeed benefit for some addionnal options, it's normal to make them rather melee centric, but they feel rather one dimensionnal currently with goblins being a separate army. They reming me of Warriors of Chaos in Warhammer after they splitted the list.