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Are you arguing that it benefits units when it states friendly units when it states that it is models getting the benefit?

And, what you're trying to argue about now is the opposite of what you were arguing before. A unit is targeted by Force, and the unit benefits. You're trying to argue the unit doesn't benefit even though it is the target and it gets the benefit of the Force power.

I'm asking you very simple questions. Socratic method and that.

1) If TK Dome affects every model in the squad, does the squad recieve Blessing of Tzeentch?

2) If TK Dome affects 50% of the models in the squad, does the squad receive Blessing of Tzeentch?

3) If a Daemon Prince casts TK Dome on itself, does the DP receive Blessing of Tzeentch?

I've given you answers. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean you haven't had them.

TK affects the psyker and models. Something that is activated by a unit getting a blessing would not be activated by models getting being affected by a blessing by RAW. You would need a blessing that affects units, not models.

TK Dome says that it targets the psyker, and affects the psyker and models within a range. So, do the models within range get Blessing of Tzeentch from that? By RAW, no. RAI may be different and might be argued, but you can't argue the that unit is affected when it's the models in the unit that are affected. Now, with them saying the pysker, that is more debatable since psykers are often ICs, so an argument could be made there that he'd be affected - but there's also an argument that it might only be treating the psker as a model.

TK Dome isn't something like Fire Shield, where it says it targets a unit and the unit gets a cover save and some other benefits; it only discusses the psyker and models in range. You sound like you expect a unit to be affected if all the models are affected, but that isn't backed up by RAW due to the statement having only models being affected. As I said before, RAI and HIWPI may differ, but we are arguing on a RAW basis here.

 doctortom wrote:
you can't argue the that unit is affected when it's the models in the unit that are affected

Units are comprised of models.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
you can't argue the that unit is affected when it's the models in the unit that are affected

Units are comprised of models.

So you say something that affects models gives the benefit to a unit?

 doctortom wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
you can't argue the that unit is affected when it's the models in the unit that are affected

Units are comprised of models.

So you say something that affects models gives the benefit to a unit?

i

One could actually make a plausible argument for this. Blessing of Tzeentch does not require the unit be targetted by a blessing, only that it be affected by one. Even if only one model receives a benefit the blessing still has affected the unit in some way. I don't know if that is the intent but I can see the justification.

How do you affect a model and avoid the unit? A model is most often in a unit, so if you affect a model you must affect a unit.

Is there a special class of powers that dont affect units?

If you have a lone IC casting boon on himself, he's either affecting his unit or not. If the spell just targets his model how is it affecting the unit? Wheres the difference between being alone in a unit and together with other models in a unit.

According to you doctortom an IC wouldnt get his unit blessed by boon?

*edit* nevermind you have answered regarding force. boon then?

Fhionnuisce wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
you can't argue the that unit is affected when it's the models in the unit that are affected

Units are comprised of models.

So you say something that affects models gives the benefit to a unit?

i

One could actually make a plausible argument for this. Blessing of Tzeentch does not require the unit be targetted by a blessing, only that it be affected by one. Even if only one model receives a benefit the blessing still has affected the unit in some way. I don't know if that is the intent but I can see the justification.

No, it doesn't work that way. One model receiving a benefit does not mean the unit has the benefit. This is along the line of special rules that say "a unit with this special rule" as compared to "a unit that has at least one model with this special rule". Blessing of Tzeentch is the equivalent of other special rules that say "a unit with this special rule". One model with the blessing would not trigger the benefit. The unit doesn't have the benefit, it only went to one model in the unit in your case. Part of a unit receiving a blessing is not the same as a full unit receiving a blessing.

 doctortom wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
you can't argue the that unit is affected when it's the models in the unit that are affected

Units are comprised of models.

So you say something that affects models gives the benefit to a unit?

i

One could actually make a plausible argument for this. Blessing of Tzeentch does not require the unit be targetted by a blessing, only that it be affected by one. Even if only one model receives a benefit the blessing still has affected the unit in some way. I don't know if that is the intent but I can see the justification.

No, it doesn't work that way. One model receiving a benefit does not mean the unit has the benefit. This is along the line of special rules that say "a unit with this special rule" as compared to "a unit that has at least one model with this special rule". Blessing of Tzeentch is the equivalent of other special rules that say "a unit with this special rule". One model with the blessing would not trigger the benefit. The unit doesn't have the benefit, it only went to one model in the unit in your case. Part of a unit receiving a blessing is not the same as a full unit receiving a blessing.

You keep saying benefit. If Blessing of Tzeentch said "a unit that benefits from a blessing" i think there would be a much stronger case for requiring the entire unit to be blessed. It doesn't say benefit, it says affected. To the best of my knowledge the rules don't explicitly define what affected means. If I am wrong on that please tell me where it is defined because I genuinely want to know. In the absence of clear rules definition though I can easily see how a unit would be considered affected by a blessing even if only one model benefited from it.

Again, I haven't made a firm decision on what I think is the right approach. My inclination is to think the entire unit needs to be in the scope of the blessing effect, but as of yet no one has shown that is strict RAW. And let's be honest, you need look no further than multiple psykers in a unit to see that GW is not exactly clear or consistent when considering the interactions between units and the models in them.

Fhionnuisce wrote:
You keep saying benefit. If Blessing of Tzeentch said "a unit that benefits from a blessing" i think there would be a much stronger case for requiring the entire unit to be blessed. It doesn't say benefit, it says affected. To the best of my knowledge the rules don't explicitly define what affected means. If I am wrong on that please tell me where it is defined because I genuinely want to know. In the absence of clear rules definition though I can easily see how a unit would be considered affected by a blessing even if only one model benefited from it.

If something benefited by something, it is affected by that something. If something is hindered by something, it is affected by that something.

Without an actual redefinition provided by the rulebook, "affect" means "to act on" or "produce an effect or change in". "Benefit" means "to good to" or "be of service to", which means you are "acting on" that one in a desirable way. So "benefit" is just a more defined form of "affect", making such a distinction you are bringing up rather pointless.

If it went the other way, you would have a point, as if the rule required a Power to benefit the unit, then just anything affecting it wouldn't work, as a hindering may be ignored.

 Charistoph wrote:
Without an actual redefinition provided by the rulebook, "affect" means "to act on" or "produce an effect or change in". "Benefit" means "to good to" or "be of service to", which means you are "acting on" that one in a desirable way. So "benefit" is just a more defined form of "affect", making such a distinction you are bringing up rather pointless.

You don't think a unit is changed if a model in it has new or altered rules due to the blessing?

And benefit being "more defined" does not make it equivalent to affect and when evaluating rules the word choice can very easily and often change the meaning. So I do not at all think it a pointless distinction.

Fhionnuisce wrote:
You don't think a unit is changed if a model in it has new or altered rules due to the blessing?

There is a noted distinction in the game as to when a unit is affected and when a model is not.

The best example of this being in Move Through Cover. The UNIT gains an extra D6 when rolling to get through Difficult Terrain. The MODEL automatically passes Dangerous Terrain Tests.

So when a rule says a model is affected, the unit as an entity is not affected.

Fhionnuisce wrote:
And benefit being "more defined" does not make it equivalent to affect and when evaluating rules the word choice can very easily and often change the meaning. So I do not at all think it a pointless distinction.

It is only pointless in one direction. If something is benefited, it is affected, period. If something is affected, it may be hindered or it may be benefited. Note the distinctions.

"Benefit" is a form of "affect", so not completely synonymous, one is one aspect of the other. Unless you can demonstrate how something can benefit something without affecting it?

Your example shows how the Move Through Cover USR interacts differently with models and units, but it doesn't talk about affecting things at all so can't lead you to any assumptions about how game rules view the term affect.

Right if hand i can't think of any situation in which something I'd benefited without being affected and concede that there is likely not one. I can however point out the inverse which illustrates why you cannot use the terms interchangeably. The blessing Sanctuary causes all daemons in its area of effect to treat all terrain as dangerous. If that daemon happened to be a Thousand Sons obliterator and not in the caster's unit it would be affected by a blessing, but not receiving a benefit. The only effects it receives are negative. If still argue it receives BoT though because it is affected by a blessing.

What about an IC that is attached to a unit who is then targeted and wounded by a precision shot with soul blaze? Wouldn't the unit get soul blazed because that IC is now a member of said unit.

I believe the whole unit would gain the blessing of tzeentch if any member of a unit gains an effect from a blessing. When joining a unit the IC becomes unified with it. Therefore, if he gains an effect through a blessing; the rest of the unit was affected even without gaining an effect.

thoughts?

Fhionnuisce wrote:
Your example shows how the Move Through Cover USR interacts differently with models and units, but it doesn't talk about affecting things at all so can't lead you to any assumptions about how game rules view the term affect.

Then you are blind to what "affect" means.

If I asked you, "How does Move Through Cover affect the unit?", what would be your response?

Fhionnuisce wrote:
Right if hand i can't think of any situation in which something I'd benefited without being affected and concede that there is likely not one. I can however point out the inverse which illustrates why you cannot use the terms interchangeably. The blessing Sanctuary causes all daemons in its area of effect to treat all terrain as dangerous. If that daemon happened to be a Thousand Sons obliterator and not in the caster's unit it would be affected by a blessing, but not receiving a benefit. The only effects it receives are negative. If still argue it receives BoT though because it is affected by a blessing.

And you rather demonstrate the point then. When someone says a Blessing is affecting something, they can also show something is being affected by it. But if a rule is looking for something affecting it, it would be looking for both benefiting and hindering.

Fhionnuisce wrote:
Your example shows how the Move Through Cover USR interacts differently with models and units, but it doesn't talk about affecting things at all so can't lead you to any assumptions about how game rules view the term affect.

Right if hand i can't think of any situation in which something I'd benefited without being affected and concede that there is likely not one. I can however point out the inverse which illustrates why you cannot use the terms interchangeably. The blessing Sanctuary causes all daemons in its area of effect to treat all terrain as dangerous. If that daemon happened to be a Thousand Sons obliterator and not in the caster's unit it would be affected by a blessing, but not receiving a benefit. The only effects it receives are negative. If still argue it receives BoT though because it is affected by a blessing.

Think of the special rule as a benefit then, if it helps. The unit gets the Blessing of Tzeentch if it all has a benefit, this would be the equivalent with USRs where there is the requirement for the unit to have a special rule. If the entire unit doesn't have the benefit, the unit doesn't get the bonus to invulnerable saves from Blessing of Tzeentch even if some of the modelss would have it. To make another analogy, think of the blessing as terminator armor. and the Blessing of Tzeentch as getting to deep strike. You might have one or two models with terminator armor (benefiting from the blessing), but the unit as a whole can't deep strike (get the blessing of Tzeentch) unless the entire unit has terminator armor (blessing affecting it). You don't get the bonus from Blessing of Tzeentch if a blessing is only affecting some models and not affecting the unit. To think of it another way, Blessing of Tzeentch only has permission to give the buff if the unit is affected. If you only have models affected but not the unit affected, you don't have permission to have the buff. Part of a unit being affected is not the same as THE unit being affected, as by definition only part of it is affected while part is unaffected. That would be RAW for a situation like this.

if some models of a unit are being affected and gain an effect from said affection; then the whole unit has been affected just the whole unit has not been given an effect.

the rule says affected not "if a model gains a new usr" or "if a unit/model gains a new effect"

DOC, you seems to be messing up effect and affect

There's only three things that matter.

- Definition of Blessing of Tz
- Definition of a Unit
- Definition of "affects"

Unless we have common ground on all of those, consensus will be impossible.

You're getting to hung up on the benefit vs affect thing. That was just too point out the terms can't be used interchangeablely.

You are saying RAW a blessing that affects a model in the unit does not affect the unit, it must affect the entire unit. I'm asking where that is written. I can find rules that say "a unit with at least one model" and rules that say "a unit comprised entirely of models. . .". Since there is precedent at both ends for how they word things you can't say definitely that either indicates how we should interpret a unit being affected.

naturalwaytrainer wrote:
if some models of a unit are being affected and gain an effect from said affection; then the whole unit has been affected just the whole unit has not been given an effect.

the rule says affected not "if a model gains a new usr" or "if a unit/model gains a new effect"

DOC, you seems to be messing up effect and affect

This is simply untrue. If some models are affected then is the whole unit affected? No, because I can show you that there are models in the unit that are not affected. Also, if you don't have the entire unit affected, then by definition the unit isn't affected - having some models affected is not the same as having the whole unit affected.

If BoT said entire unit we wouldn't be having this conversation. Where do rules state "the unit" means "the entire unit"?

Fhionnuisce wrote:
If BoT said entire unit we wouldn't be having this conversation. Where do rules state "the unit" means "the entire unit"?

It says "the unit". It doesn't say "a unit with at least one model benefiting from a blessing gains...". It only says "the unit", which by definitiion means the entire unit. In order to try to assert otherwise, you have to be able to show where something that states "the unit" as a conditional trigger still works if you only have a model or two but don't have "the unit" qualifying.

what about a model that already has the stealth and shrouded who is then blessed by a psychic power that gives stealth? was that model affected even though it could gain no further effects from the blessing? would they get the BoT? I think so

 doctortom wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
If BoT said entire unit we wouldn't be having this conversation. Where do rules state "the unit" means "the entire unit"?

It says "the unit". It doesn't say "a unit with at least one model benefiting from a blessing gains...". It only says "the unit", which by definitiion means the entire unit. In order to try to assert otherwise, you have to be able to show where something that states "the unit" as a conditional trigger still works if you only have a model or two but don't have "the unit" qualifying.

There are also rules that say "a unit comprised entirely of models with". This rule days neither. Why is your interpretation based on a completely different way of writing a rule more important than this completely different way? Precedent is only important as a way of evaluating rules when the precedent is consistent.

Fhionnuisce wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
If BoT said entire unit we wouldn't be having this conversation. Where do rules state "the unit" means "the entire unit"?

It says "the unit". It doesn't say "a unit with at least one model benefiting from a blessing gains...". It only says "the unit", which by definitiion means the entire unit. In order to try to assert otherwise, you have to be able to show where something that states "the unit" as a conditional trigger still works if you only have a model or two but don't have "the unit" qualifying.

There are also rules that say "a unit comprised entirely of models with". This rule days neither. Why is your interpretation based on a completely different way of writing a rule more important than this completely different way? Precedent is only important as a way of evaluating rules when the precedent is consistent.

Well, the precedent has been consistent about not affecting entire units if one model has something and the wording isn't "unit with one or more models with this". And, there's been no evidence presented to back up the other claim that one model being affected by something makes the entire unit count as being affected without wording like that.

Also for consideration:

FAQs have clarified that if a model in a unit has a different faction from the rest of the unit, the unit is considered to have both/all of those factions. So at least in some cases traits of individual models do confer to the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Similar rulings for Hatred and Preferred Enemy. If any model in the target unit has the defined traits then the unit does.

If units are comprised of models, what affects models by necessity affects units.

The USA is comprised of states. If California happens to fall into the ocean, it's pretty obvious it affects the entire country.

That"s the logical analogy, at least.

Yoyoyo wrote:
If units are comprised of models, what affects models by necessity affects units.

The USA is comprised of states. If California happens to fall into the ocean, it's pretty obvious it affects the entire country.

That"s the logical analogy, at least.

Don't bring real world examples into the discussion, Tenet #3.

If one model has Relentless, then another model without Relentless fires a Rapid Fire Weapon, the unit can still Charge? One model is affected by Relentless, does that mean all the models in the unit are?

That is what you are suggesting.

 Charistoph wrote:
If one model has Relentless, then another model without Relentless fires a Rapid Fire Weapon, the unit can still Charge? One model is affected by Relentless, does that mean all the models in the unit are?

That is what you are suggesting.

No, you're misinterpreting.

The criteria for Blessing of Tzeentch NEVER states "all models must be affected". You have to argue the actual criteria. Not stuff that has not relationship whatsoever!

What happens when a Relentless unit is joined by a non-Relentless IC, all of whom Rapidfire? Does one model affect the entire unit?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
If one model has Relentless, then another model without Relentless fires a Rapid Fire Weapon, the unit can still Charge? One model is affected by Relentless, does that mean all the models in the unit are?

That is what you are suggesting.

No, you're misinterpreting.

The criteria for Blessing of Tzeentch NEVER states "all models must be affected". You have to argue the actual criteria. Not stuff that has not relationship whatsoever!

What happens when a Relentless unit is joined by a non-Relentless IC, all of whom Rapidfire? Does one model affect the entire unit?

But you are stating that if something affects the model, it affects the unit. The other models are part of the unit. Therefore, if one model is affected all models are affected.

This is the standard to consider when you are stating if something affects the model it affects the unit. When something is said to affect the unit, it is affecting all the models in a unit.