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Yoyoyo wrote:
If you remove a model, does a group get smaller?

I noticed you didn't answer this question, Charistoph.

I'd like to have your opinion of this in particular, before you go off on any more overly complicated tangents.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
If you remove a model, does a group get smaller?

I noticed you didn't answer this question, Charistoph.

I'd like to have your opinion of this in particular, before you go off on any more overly complicated tangents.

Why address what is tantamount to a strawman argument?

Of course it gets smaller, and those rules which address it specifically state it as such in a process. Do you want to define any particular scenario in which a model is removed so I can demonstrate it? Your question is rather general, and you seem to want me to avoid being "complicated" by demonstrating most of them.

And sad to say, because of the lack of proper rule cohesiveness in 40K rules, questions like this almost have to be addressed in complicated manners, and they are not tangents.

 Charistoph wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
There is a RAW consideration of difference as to when a rules affect a model or they affect a unit. This is supported throughout the entire rulebook and made poignant in the interaction between Independent Characters and units they join.

Then cite it.

I have, you ignored it.

I just went through every post you have made in this thread and you have ciyed nothing on this. You make a lot of statements of this is how the rules work but no quotes or page numbers. A lot of argument about direct affect and indirect affect but again no page numbers or quotes.

The closest you have come is using different rules as examples. The problem with that is 1) they only state what is acted upon not what is affected and 2) they did not lead most other people in this thread to the same conclusions you reached about then.

This is not a strawman. I just asked you a question with a very evident conclusion, that you apparently don't like.

If your opinion about models, groups, and "affected" is correct, it needs to hold true for all examples.

It clearly doesn't. Do you want to try answering this question again, this time without attacking the premise?

This is probably the best way to convince me.

Does removing an individual model "affect" the group?

I think Blessing of Tzeentch should kick in whenever one or more models in a unit are targeted by or have some benefit conferred on them specifically by a Blessing type power.

If the state of one model in a unit changes, then the state of the entire unit has changed, as the unit is a collection of individual models. For example, if one model is removed a casualty, the number of models in the unit has changed.

Furthermore, the new discipline of Tzeentch contains no unit-wide blessings. It seems like an oversight to add a Tzeentch-specific rule and then fail to include any means of activating it in the Tzeentch-discipline. Unit-wide blessings are a fairly rare thing to begin with.

What's the difference between 'within' and 'wholly within' in the BRB?

Considering the precedence established by 'within' and 'wholly within', how should we interpret 'affect' versus 'wholly affect'?

Fhionnuisce wrote:I just went through every post you have made in this thread and you have ciyed nothing on this. You make a lot of statements of this is how the rules work but no quotes or page numbers. A lot of argument about direct affect and indirect affect but again no page numbers or quotes.

The closest you have come is using different rules as examples. The problem with that is 1) they only state what is acted upon not what is affected and 2) they did not lead most other people in this thread to the same conclusions you reached about then.

As I said, you have ignored it, and apparently continue ignoring it.

Look up the definition of a unit, it is in General Principles.

Look up at all the rules interactions, to whom do they state they affect and when?

Look up the introduction to Special Rules and whom they state it applies to.

Look up Independent Character and the interactions between unit and the model with this special rule.

Look up all the Special Rules and identify who it actually states it affects, unit or model. Can we actually consider Concussive or Relentless to be affecting the definition of unit as provided in General Principles and the interactions as defined in Independent Characters?

I asked these questions to point you in the direction of the answers and you have ignored them. I cannot provide you page numbers as I do not have a physical copy available to reference anymore, and ebook reader page numbers will vary based on the reader and font size.

Yoyoyo wrote:This is not a strawman. I just asked you a question with a very evident conclusion, that you apparently don't like.

If your opinion about models, groups, and "affected" is correct, it needs to hold true for all examples.

It clearly doesn't. Do you want to try answering this question again, this time without attacking the premise?

This is probably the best way to convince me.

Does removing an individual model "affect" the group?

Scared for me to actually address a specific situation? Please provide one where a model is removed and I will go through the process and highlight the scenario as to when it tells you when something is affected. There are too many to count quickly and they are all through the entire rulebook, so I want you to provide the actual scenario of model loss so that way it cannot be dismissed.

Let's look at a power like Psychic Scourge, then.

The wording is "targets an enemy psyker within 24".

This power can remove a wound from that psyker, removing them from the unit.

If that psyker model is removed -- do you consider the unit affected, despite the fact that Psychic Scourge specifically targets a model?

Telling someone to read the rules is not the same as citing a rule. I read through those sections you listed but see nothing that leads me to the conclusion that something that affects a model does not also affect the unit of which it is part. I am always open to the possibility that I have overlooked or misread something, but you need to be more specific if you expect me to see it.

You guys are still going on this... wow! Dedication at its finest!

topaxygouroun i wrote:
You guys are still going on this... wow! Dedication at its finest!

When one side is continually showing different precedents in the rulebook that support their standing and the other side is repeating the same non relevant examples it gets a bit stale. Dedicated to copy/paste and the ever-so-loved slight goalpost movement of "im just saying it's not very clear" which is obvious.

 Charistoph wrote:

Because the game interacts with models and units differently. When a rule states "a model does X" or "When a model is hit, X happens", it is only working upon that model and not the whole group. When a rule states "a unit does X" or "When a unit is hit, X happens" it is talking about the whole group.

To consider it another way, let's look at Concussive. Does the whole group of models get affected when a unit is hit by it?

Blind is rather a poor example since Units are Hit, not models. Models get Wounds Allocated to them depending on the success against the Unit.

Objective Control specifically mentions "at least one model from one of your scoring units", so a less effective example.

I don't understand the distinction you're making between "the unit is affected by a blessing" and "the unit is hit with a blind weapon". In one case, you're saying a single model getting hit by a blind weapon means the unit has been affected by blind but in the other case you're saying a model being affected by a blessing doesn't mean the unit has been.

Concussive is a different case because it specifies model instead of unit so I don't believe it is as relevant as blind here.

I didn't say objective control either. I pointed out the rules for revealing a mysterious objective which are different. The rule doesn't say when you control the objective you reveal it, it says "any unit that moves within 3" of an objective" identifies its nature.

For another example, we could consider characters like Ulrik the Slayer that confer bubbles to units within 6". Do you stipulate that the entire unit has to be within the 6" to get the effect?

How I Would Play It: A unit must have all models be affected by a blessing. Some examples:

- Iron Arm/Empyric Shield/Fiery Form - Only affects a model and therefore doesn't trigger the blessing
- Shrouding - Technically only targets a model, but due to the emanation passing shrouded to any models within range and shrouded confers to the unit not only is the casters unit affected (and therefore triggers the blessing), but any other models in range also confer it to their unit, also triggering the blessing for them too.
- Foreboding/Hammerhand/Levitation - Technically only Targets a model though any unit that model is attached to is also affected, triggering the blessing.
- Telekine Dome/Cursed Earth - Technically only targets a model, but due to the emanation passing the buff to all models within 12", if all models in a unit are within 12" of the caster, then this will trigger the blessing for that unit, however, if only some models but not the entire unit recieve the effect due to some models being out of range, then the unit does not recieve the blessing.
- Force/Warp Fate/Endurance - Targets a unit with a blessing and as such, triggers the blessing

Personally, the only situation I see this really popping up is if an Aspiring Sorcerer has the misfortune of rolling up Boon of Mutation, and even then, why would you not just activate Force? Alternatively, some other Thousand Sons psyker might just have bad luck, run out of Blessings to cast and be left with something like Iron Arm/Warp Speed. In that sense, I wouldn't really mind playing this rule either way as it's probably not going to matter.

You have a bowl of almonds.

You then paint one of the almonds green.

Has the bowl of almonds been affected?


The answer is yes, and continues to be yes when you substitute the word unit for bowl and the word almonds for models.

Blessing of tzeentch is triggered whenever any blessing is cast on any model in a thousand sons unit, RAW.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:


Blessing of tzeentch is triggered whenever any blessing is cast on any model in a thousand sons unit, RAW.

Well, that's one interpretation

Another question. If a unit affected by a blessing gets nullify by culexus. Does that unit keep the +1 invuln from blessing of tz

col_impact wrote:
When you affect one model in a group you are partially affecting the group.

The BRB uses "affect" and does not restrict "affect" to "wholly affect".

As already stated English semantics is not on your side.

Have you found something in the BRB to support your argument?

Can you find an absurd result that requires players to interpret "affect" as "wholly affect"?

Under your logic if I cast boon of mutation on a aspiring sorcerer all units that are able to benefit from BoT do so. If you want a distinction between whole and partial then look at the word used in the rule and ask yourself why they didn't put "a model affected", its because they didn't want BOM or Siphon Magic to grant the benefit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, first the difference between affect and effect. Affect can cause a change, while effect is the change. From here on out I will use the word "impact" to replace the word "effect" where possible to keep things simple. Next up is the word unit, a unit in this case is a group of models, all the models, not some, not most, not "99%".

So let's read the rule with these things in mind. "If a unit" so all the models in a unit. "Is affected" so not necessarily impacted by the blessing, but could be, if they either possessed, or did not possess some other thing that prevents the affect from having an impact.

Now, force affects the entire unit, but does not impact the entire unit. So yes force gives the unit BOT buff. BoM does NOT affect the entire unit though it does have an impact on the entire unit, for example if I cast BoM and roll Dark Apotheosis, then my entire army has just been impacted by BoM which means all my models get a +1 to thier invul? No, they wouldn't.

Finally the AoE spells as long as the entire unit is benefiting from the blessing then yes they get BoT, but if even one model is not within the range of the blessing then no they don't. Why? Because the moment you are not talking about the unit as a whole then you are talking about the models in a unit.

Now if the rule said "If any model in a unit" then yes BoM and all spells similarly worded would activate BoT, but it does not say that. Conversely if it said "any unit effected" every time you casted any blessing a case could be made that your entire army was impacted and as such everyone now gets the benefit

EDIT: In the case brought up about shrouded affecting a unit that already had stealth, yes they would get the benefit again even though there is no impact there is still an affect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Another question. If a unit affected by a blessing gets nullify by culexus. Does that unit keep the +1 invuln from blessing of tz

Yes because the affect triggers the blessing so even though the impact is no longer thier the unit retains the benefit from BoT which "lasts until the next psychic phase" not "until the blessing ends"

Yoyoyo wrote:
Look at another case.

Some spells target the psyker, like Shrouding or TK Dome, which then confer an aura to models within 6" or 12" of the caster?

If 50% of the Rubrics are within range of the aura, and 50% of the Rubric receives no benefit, does the unit receive Blessing of Tzeentch?

There is a clear disconnect between a unit being targeted, and a unit being affected.

The models within 6" aren´t benefiting from the blessing they are benefitting from shrouded. this is any model even from different units. The only model blessed by the shrouding spell is the model it is cast on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

col_impact wrote:
When you affect one model in a group you are partially affecting the group.

The BRB uses "affect" and does not restrict "affect" to "wholly affect".

As already stated English semantics is not on your side.

Have you found something in the BRB to support your argument?

Can you find an absurd result that requires players to interpret "affect" as "wholly affect"?

Under your logic if I cast boon of mutation on a aspiring sorcerer all units that are able to benefit from BoT do so. If you want a distinction between whole and partial then look at the word used in the rule and ask yourself why they didn't put "a model affected", its because they didn't want BOM or Siphon Magic to grant the benefit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, first the difference between affect and effect. Affect can cause a change, while effect is the change. From here on out I will use the word "impact" to replace the word "effect" where possible to keep things simple. Next up is the word unit, a unit in this case is a group of models, all the models, not some, not most, not "99%".

So let's read the rule with these things in mind. "If a unit" so all the models in a unit. "Is affected" so not necessarily impacted by the blessing, but could be, if they either possessed, or did not possess some other thing that prevents the affect from having an impact.

Now, force affects the entire unit, but does not impact the entire unit. So yes force gives the unit BOT buff. BoM does NOT affect the entire unit though it does have an impact on the entire unit, for example if I cast BoM and roll Dark Apotheosis, then my entire army has just been impacted by BoM which means all my models get a +1 to thier invul? No, they wouldn't.

Finally the AoE spells as long as the entire unit is benefiting from the blessing then yes they get BoT, but if even one model is not within the range of the blessing then no they don't. Why? Because the moment you are not talking about the unit as a whole then you are talking about the models in a unit.

Now if the rule said "If any model in a unit" then yes BoM and all spells similarly worded would activate BoT, but it does not say that. Conversely if it said "any unit effected" every time you casted any blessing a case could be made that your entire army was impacted and as such everyone now gets the benefit

EDIT: In the case brought up about shrouded affecting a unit that already had stealth, yes they would get the benefit again even though there is no impact there is still an affect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Another question. If a unit affected by a blessing gets nullify by culexus. Does that unit keep the +1 invuln from blessing of tz

Yes because the affect triggers the blessing so even though the impact is no longer thier the unit retains the benefit from BoT which "lasts until the next psychic phase" not "until the blessing ends"

The AoE issue worries me by the defenition. My sorcerer cast shrouding on himself. Magnus is in range of this buff so now gets BoT???? He then runs away from the unit or charges out of range. He still has the benefit even though he has never been blessed only ever been impacted by a spell cast onto a single model in a completely separate unit.

Models, targeting, benefiting aren't part of the criteria.

Only "units" and "affected".

Sorry to dig up an old post, but I've been wondering about this myself, and have read through this entire thread. In my searching, I think I've found a section of the BRB that I believe actually helps resolve this debate, or at least provides a solid rules base for one side of the argument. BRB pg 108 talks about moving through difficult terrain.

The text reads as follows:
"Moving Within Difficult Terrain
If any models in a unit start their move in difficult terrain, they are affected by the terrain and must take a Difficult Terrain Test. No models in the unit can move more than the distance indicated by the test, even if they are not in difficult terrain."

I don't believe it's an end all be all argument, and we'll still likely need an FAQ for full resolution, but I think it's the closest scenario to the BoT rule so far discussed. It uses similar language and gives us a BRB definition of affect. It shows an explicit example of one model being affected conferring an affected status to the whole unit. For instance, say only one model is in the terrain, the whole unit is still affected by the difficult terrain rule. Therefore, anything that referred to the unit being affected by Difficult Terrain would be triggered, even if only one model is actually in the terrain. I'd say that this would be the closest BRB example in favor of the argument that Blessing of Tzeentch applies to the whole unit, even if not all models were specifically targeted or directly benefited from the blessing.