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So if an aspiring sorcerer from a unit of rubrics casts force does the whole unit get +1 to their invulnerable or just the sorcerer? I would believe that the whole unit gets it as it states if the unit is effected by a blessing then they get the benefit but I've just watched a video from mini war gaming (granted I think they get rules wrong in nearly all of their videos) and they believe that just the sorcerer gets the benefit. What do you guys think?

I think whole unit.

The way Force is worded you cast Force on the whole unit and the force weapons in the unit cause instant death. The result may be that the sorcerer is the only one who gets an effect, but the whole unit got blessed. So they all benefit from Blessing of Tzeentch

 CrownAxe wrote:
The way Force is worded you cast Force on the whole unit and the force weapons in the unit cause instant death. The result may be that the sorcerer is the only one who gets an effect, but the whole unit got blessed. So they all benefit from Blessing of Tzeentch

This. Also keep in mind the UNIT needs to be blessed, not just a model. If the Aspiring Sorc used, say, Boon of Mutation he would get the blessing and the roll on the Boon table but this would not give the +1 invul save to anything.

Hmm that's a bit more debatable. The character getting the gift of mutation is still part of the unit, so you could say the unit has been affected by a blessing.

No, only a part of the unit (the one model) has been affected by the blessing in that case.

 doctortom wrote:
No, only a part of the unit (the one model) has been affected by the blessing in that case.

Correct, the unit has been affected by the blessing. Nowhere does it state "each model affected by the blessing" it only states that the unit receives the buff.
If only a model is affected, then there is no unit that can get the buff to invul, you can't have it both ways. Ie, if you cast a blessing on a model in a unit, the unit is blessed.

I've never noticed that force effects the entire unit, does this mean if an exalted sorcerer joined the unit and cast force not only would the unit get +1 invulnerable saves but the aspiring sorcerers force weapon would also cause instant death?

 CrownAxe wrote:
The way Force is worded you cast Force on the whole unit and the force weapons in the unit cause instant death. The result may be that the sorcerer is the only one who gets an effect, but the whole unit got blessed. So they all benefit from Blessing of Tzeentch

So wait. If an Exalted Sorcerer is also attached to the same group, who both Psykers get Force since they both have Force weapons?

 EnTyme wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
The way Force is worded you cast Force on the whole unit and the force weapons in the unit cause instant death. The result may be that the sorcerer is the only one who gets an effect, but the whole unit got blessed. So they all benefit from Blessing of Tzeentch

So wait. If an Exalted Sorcerer is also attached to the same group, who both Psykers get Force since they both have Force weapons?

Asked the same question haha but I checked the wording and that seems the case, don't need brotherhood for force it seems.

 doctortom wrote:
No, only a part of the unit (the one model) has been affected by the blessing in that case.

That's the same as Force on a Rubric unit, though. It only affects one model, the Aspiring Sorcerer, unless you have ICs with Force Weapons joined to the unit. Only one model is affected by the blessing.

Force "targets the psyker and his unit", true. But the wording of Blessing of Tzeentch has nothing to do with targeting.

Honestly, there needs to be a FAQ on this one.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
No, only a part of the unit (the one model) has been affected by the blessing in that case.

That's the same as Force on a Rubric unit, though. It only affects one model, the Aspiring Sorcerer, unless you have ICs with Force Weapons joined to the unit. Only one model is affected by the blessing.

Force "targets the psyker and his unit", true. But the wording of Blessing of Tzeentch has nothing to do with targeting.

Honestly, there needs to be a FAQ on this one.

At the time I made the comment you quoted, the discussion was Boon of Mutation. Force "targets the psyker and his unit", but Boon of Mutation doesn't target the unit. The unit doesn't get Blessing of Tzeentch from Boon of Mutation being cast. They do get it, however, from Force being cast as the blessing affects the unit. In this, I disagree with you that Blessing of Tzeentch has a lot to do with targeting - if a unit is the target of a blessing, then the unit being targeted by the blessing will also get the enchancement from Blessing of Tzeentch.

Look at it this way, though.

Force affects the Aspiring Sorcerer's weapon. It doesn't affect the Rubrics, at all.

Boon of Mutation can affect the Aspiring Sorcerer. It doesn't affect the Rubrics, at all.

You're treating "targets" as equivalent to "affects". But technically, they aren't the same thing.

Bonus question: If we cast Boon on a Daemon Prince, does it trigger Blessing of Tzeentch as a single model? Or is it disqualified as it doesn't "target a unit"?

Yoyoyo wrote:
Look at it this way, though.

Force affects the Aspiring Sorcerer's weapon. It doesn't affect the Rubrics, at all.

Boon of Mutation can affect the Aspiring Sorcerer. It doesn't affect the Rubrics, at all.

You're treating "targets" as equivalent to "affects". But technically, they aren't the same thing.

Bonus question: If we cast Boon on a Daemon Prince, does it trigger Blessing of Tzeentch as a single model? Or is it disqualified as it doesn't "target a unit"?

You yourself gave a quote saying it "targets the psyker and his unit". That's not saying it targets the weapons, it targets the unit. Targets means it is cast on the unit. That's good enough for Blessing of Tzeentch.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Look at it this way, though.

Force affects the Aspiring Sorcerer's weapon. It doesn't affect the Rubrics, at all.

Boon of Mutation can affect the Aspiring Sorcerer. It doesn't affect the Rubrics, at all.

You're treating "targets" as equivalent to "affects". But technically, they aren't the same thing.

Bonus question: If we cast Boon on a Daemon Prince, does it trigger Blessing of Tzeentch as a single model? Or is it disqualified as it doesn't "target a unit"?

Force does affect the rubrics. All their force weapons are ID. The fact that they don't have any force weapons means they don't benefit from that blessing, but it is still there.

And a daemon prince is a unit, it just happens to be a unit of one model.

This is about specificity of language.

Look closely at the wording of Blessing of Tzeentch.

"If any unit with the VotLW SR is affected by a blessing..."

Where is "targets a unit" part of the criteria? It isn't. So we need to break down "affected".

If Rubrics don't have Force Weapons, how can Force possibly affect them?

Yoyoyo wrote:
This is about specificity of language.

Look closely at the wording of Blessing of Tzeentch.

"If any unit with the VotLW SR is affected by a blessing..."

Where is "targets a unit" part of the criteria? It isn't. So we need to break down "affected".

If Rubrics don't have Force Weapons, how can Force possibly affect them?

They still get any force weapons they have activated - even if they don't have any, that blessing is still in place affecting them.

The definition of affect:

have an effect on; make a difference to

I think you need to start here if you want to rules lawyer.

Yoyoyo wrote:
The definition of affect:

have an effect on; make a difference to

I think you need to start here if you want to rules lawyer.

I think you need to read up on blessings.

From page 26 - "Blessings target one or more friendly units and, unless otherwise stated, last until the start of the Psyker's next Psychic phase. Blessings can affect units that are locked in close combat and can affect the Psyker himself. The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative."

So, they're cast on units and the benefits of the blessing last for a round, They're not making the distinction you are. I'd say you are the one trying to rules lawyer by trying to make the artificial distinction here about the benefit vs who it's cast on.

So, does that mean Boon is cast on a unit, even if it targets a single model?

Boon targets as single Character within 2", usually the psyker himself. It does not effect the unit.

Force targets the entire unit. All models in the unit gain "Force" but only models equipped with weapons that have the Force special rule gain Instant Death on their attacks. All Psykers know Force. Incidentally, Zoanthropes (or any Tyrannid psyker) could also cast Force if they really wanted to, they just gain no real benefit from it other then throwing dice for the lols.

Blessing states that it triggers when the "unit" comes under the effect of a Blessing. Force fulfills this criteria while powers that effect a single model, such as Boon, do not.

BomBomHotdog wrote:
It does not effect the unit.

Why not? It can literally remove the unit's sergeant!

Yoyoyo wrote:

BomBomHotdog wrote:
It does not effect the unit.

Why not? It can literally remove the unit's sergeant!

What does Boon of Mutation say for what it targets? That's why not. Targeting a single character is not targeting a unit.

Targeting is not the criteria of what confers the USR

"If any unit with the VotLW SR is affected by a blessing..."

It's "affected". It's right there!

Now, look at a focused witchfire. It targets a single model, but the consequences clearly affect the unit.

Can we really argue otherwise?

(this is why I expect a FAQ at some point...)

Yoyoyo wrote:
Targeting is not the criteria of what confers the USR

"If any unit with the VotLW SR is affected by a blessing..."

It's "affected". It's right there!

Now, look at a focused witchfire. It targets a single model, but the consequences clearly affect the unit.

Can we really argue otherwise?

(this is why I expect a FAQ at some point...)

First off, go back and reread focused witchfire. It does NOT affect the unit. Based upon the roll, the power manifests against either the target model you choose, or the closest model in the target unit. In neither case does it say the entire unit is affected. So, the consequences clearly do NOT affect the unit, only one model.

Now, does Boon of Mutation give any indication that it affects more than the character it is targeting? . Force affects the unit it targets. If it didn't, you wouldn't have anybody besides the psyker having a force blade activated by it, which is clearly not the case from its wording.

Look at another case.

Some spells target the psyker, like Shrouding or TK Dome, which then confer an aura to models within 6" or 12" of the caster?

If 50% of the Rubrics are within range of the aura, and 50% of the Rubric receives no benefit, does the unit receive Blessing of Tzeentch?

There is a clear disconnect between a unit being targeted, and a unit being affected.

Those powers say they target the psyker and say that the Psyker and models within range get certain benefits. It doesn't say the unit benefits. If the psyker is an IC, he'd benefit by being a unit on his own., but the power talks about affecting models, not units. This is unlike Force, which targets units and bestows an effect on the unit.

Let's say 100% of the Rubrics are in range. Do they now benefit?

Or are you arguing that Force confers a blessing -- when it often affects a single model -- and TK Dome does not, when it might affect every model in the unit?

Once again -- the criteria cannot be "targets". One, because it's wrong. Second, because you end up with a complete mess!

I'm not arguing that Force confers a blessing. Force says it's a blessing, and it targets the unit, and there is not an indication that it goes counter to what the rules for Blessings in the main rulebook state.

When the blessing goes on the unit it targets, then the unit is affected.

And, please, just saying "when it often affects a single model" try to be more precise. Are you talking about affecting the pysker himself? If it's an IC, then they psyker is a unit.

TK dome affects models, not units, when you read the power. Your quote above states if any unit with VotLW is affected by a blessing. Are you trying to say that models = units? You aren't told that units are affected, only models are being affected (other than the psyker itself, who if an IC may count as a unit for this). So, why would you assume that something affecting only models would trigger something that states units must be affected?

Are you arguing that TK Dome doesn't benefit a unit, even when it affects every model in the squad?

What about a Daemon Prince which casts TK Dome on itself?