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 Matthew wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
I think that the Emperor takes the form of any powerful leader in the world, to make sure we do the best things we can to survive. He's either Putin or Trump right now. Probably was Caesar, Lincoln, the Pope, Dalai lama etc.

Except WH40k is fiction and there's no reason to assume that Terra and Earth are exactly the same.

You may notice a distinct lack of Warp Storms and Magic-Users.

Have you seen Hillary and Trump? Crazy how they made people vote for them.

I personally like the idea of Terra being the exact earth we're on since it enables lots of fun fan fiction.

The US has what's called a "two-party system". Essentially the Democrats and Republicans are so strongly dominant that it is widely considered to be a wasted vote to vote for a politician from another party.

Also, it's pretty certain that Terra is not Earth. Humanity IRL would never use Warp Travel or Teleporters.

 Pouncey wrote:

Also, it's pretty certain that Terra is not Earth. Humanity IRL would never use Warp Travel or Teleporters.

You don't know me! Maybe I want to travel through hell to get to the nearest space McDonalds!

Emps was macdonald. And he had a farm. And a mysterious stc called e.i.e.i.o

No silly he is malal :3

To coopt a much less interesting character's Shtick:

"The Emperor is the man beside you"

 mrhappyface wrote:
I don't think the Big E is as big on equality as old Abe was, what with all the purging.

both did a lot of purging actually.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
I don't think the Big E is as big on equality as old Abe was, what with all the purging.

both did a lot of purging actually.

To be fair, the Emperor is pretty damned big on equality... among humans.

He was an enormous human supremacist though and was only willing to tolerate alien species so long as they were subservient to humans.

Anywho, Abraham Lincoln died, and the Emperor didn't. So they're not the same person.

 Matthew wrote:
I personally like the idea of Terra being the exact earth we're on since it enables lots of fun fan fiction.

I agree with this! What we need are some good stories set in the Golden Age of Technology. We've got plenty of stories set in M41, and plenty more set in M31 (Horus Heresy). Why nothing set in the Golden Age? Why not the story of first contact between humans and the Eldar or Orks? I would love some stuff from this era!

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
I personally like the idea of Terra being the exact earth we're on since it enables lots of fun fan fiction.

I agree with this! What we need are some good stories set in the Golden Age of Technology. We've got plenty of stories set in M41, and plenty more set in M31 (Horus Heresy). Why nothing set in the Golden Age? Why not the story of first contact between humans and the Eldar or Orks? I would love some stuff from this era!

Because if you tried to fill in the 28,000 year gap between the modern day and the Horus Heresy, you'd realize how absurd WH40k lore is by limiting our technological advancement to things as basic as power armor and boltguns.

You'd also be baffled by why Orks didn't simply wipe out humanity while we were clueless, or why Eldar didn't put us down as mindless beasts.

 Pouncey wrote:
Also, it's pretty certain that Terra is not Earth. Humanity IRL would never use Warp Travel or Teleporters.

In 40k fluff humans weren't using those in this year either. Here's surprising thought: In SF it's common that there's technology invented later that doesn't exists in current timeline.

You are basically saying earth in any SF isn't same earth as we are now eventhough authors are generally indicating otherwise(look at Star Trek, Babylon 5, Isaac Asimov's books etc etc etc)


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 Zingraff wrote:
Anywho, Abraham Lincoln died, and the Emperor didn't. So they're not the same person.

As said before irrelevant. Emperor was acting in disguise. You are HARDLY disguising your superpowers if you are immortal _and show it_.

By definition Emperor faked his own death multiple times over the course of history. Otherwise humans would have learned of his immortality before he came out into open with it during the unification wars before great crusade.

With his absurd level of psychic power, the Emperor secretly being any given historical figure and faking his death well enough that nobody suspected anything is very plausible.

tneva82 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Also, it's pretty certain that Terra is not Earth. Humanity IRL would never use Warp Travel or Teleporters.

In 40k fluff humans weren't using those in this year either. Here's surprising thought: In SF it's common that there's technology invented later that doesn't exists in current timeline.

You are basically saying earth in any SF isn't same earth as we are now eventhough authors are generally indicating otherwise(look at Star Trek, Babylon 5, Isaac Asimov's books etc etc etc)

No, I'm saying that traveling through Hell to get to another planet is an option humans IRL would never use when we can simply spend 28,000 years to develop ships with negative mass and thus simply travel faster than light without leaving the material plane, and given the "No-Cloning Theorem" no sane human being who was informed of the physics would ever allow themselves to be teleported with matter-energy transporter devices.

It's not a matter of the tech not existing, it's a matter of humans refusing to do things that way because sanity would prevail in the minds of our engineers.


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tneva82 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zingraff wrote:
Anywho, Abraham Lincoln died, and the Emperor didn't. So they're not the same person.

As said before irrelevant. Emperor was acting in disguise. You are HARDLY disguising your superpowers if you are immortal _and show it_.

By definition Emperor faked his own death multiple times over the course of history. Otherwise humans would have learned of his immortality before he came out into open with it during the unification wars before great crusade.

Given the circumstances of Lincoln's death, he can hardly be said to have "faked it."

Given the circumstances of Lincoln's death, he can hardly be said to have "faked it."

Not if you assume he hypnotized all witnesses.

 Pouncey wrote:

No, I'm saying that traveling through Hell to get to another planet is an option humans IRL would never use when we can simply spend 28,000 years to develop ships with negative mass and thus simply travel faster than light without leaving the material plane, and given the "No-Cloning Theorem" no sane human being who was informed of the physics would ever allow themselves to be teleported with matter-energy transporter devices.

Sorry but currently no method has been invented to get even 0.5c let alone faster than light so claiming they would use another not-invented-and-likely-not-possible is silly.

It's not a matter of the tech not existing, it's a matter of humans refusing to do things that way because sanity would prevail in the minds of our engineers.

Humans aren't affraid of using tech that can get themselves killed. History already proves it.

Given the circumstances of Lincoln's death, he can hardly be said to have "faked it."

You assume he didn't hire somebody to assasinate himself and then fake him dying. As it is with his psychic powers he could have mind controlled any random dude to be shooter(sucks for him but Emperor is hardly a nice guy. Only humanity evolving to psychic race safely matters for him. Casualties in the process are just the way things are) or even create illusion of shooter and illusion of his body.

Nothing in history is evidence that he couldn't have been emperor as he is written. Emperor has more than sufficient abilities to fake being assasinated. With 19th century humans as target wouldn't even be remotely difficult.

 TheWaspinator wrote:

Given the circumstances of Lincoln's death, he can hardly be said to have "faked it."

Not if you assume he hypnotized all witnesses.

Well if he's omnipotent, why didn't he just do his whole galaxy-conquering thing centuries ago by magicking advanced tech into existence?


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tneva82 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

No, I'm saying that traveling through Hell to get to another planet is an option humans IRL would never use when we can simply spend 28,000 years to develop ships with negative mass and thus simply travel faster than light without leaving the material plane, and given the "No-Cloning Theorem" no sane human being who was informed of the physics would ever allow themselves to be teleported with matter-energy transporter devices.

Sorry but currently no method has been invented to get even 0.5c let alone faster than light so claiming they would use another not-invented-and-likely-not-possible is silly.

Look into negative mass. Now remember that we have 28,000 years to get it working.

It's not a matter of the tech not existing, it's a matter of humans refusing to do things that way because sanity would prevail in the minds of our engineers.

Humans aren't affraid of using tech that can get themselves killed. History already proves it.

It's not a matter of "can" in the case of transporters. They kill any creature that is transported by them, even during a successful transport.

As for interstellar travel, we'd do it the Tau way.

Given the circumstances of Lincoln's death, he can hardly be said to have "faked it."

You assume he didn't hire somebody to assasinate himself and then fake him dying. As it is with his psychic powers he could have mind controlled any random dude to be shooter(sucks for him but Emperor is hardly a nice guy. Only humanity evolving to psychic race safely matters for him. Casualties in the process are just the way things are) or even create illusion of shooter and illusion of his body.

Nothing in history is evidence that he couldn't have been emperor as he is written. Emperor has more than sufficient abilities to fake being assasinated. With 19th century humans as target wouldn't even be remotely difficult.

How can I prove to you that Warhammer 40k is fiction, and that the backstory of the 40k universe is not expounded upon in enough detail to describe any current or past individual as the Emperor?

I will agree that I would never want to use any form of a teleporter. If anyone doesn't understand why, go watch "The Prestige".

 TheWaspinator wrote:
I will agree that I would never want to use any form of a teleporter. If anyone doesn't understand why, go watch "The Prestige".

Personally, I don't want to die, so I will never willingly allow myself to be deconstructed on a molecular level solely so that a doppleganger of myself can be created in a distant location.

That's basically what "The Prestige" is about, with the bonus of an extra gristly death for the original.

 Pouncey wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:

Given the circumstances of Lincoln's death, he can hardly be said to have "faked it."

Not if you assume he hypnotized all witnesses.

Well if he's omnipotent, why didn't he just do his whole galaxy-conquering thing centuries ago by magicking advanced tech into existence?

He's not omnipotent for one thing. There's limits what he can do. For a long time it was his modus operandi to guide humans from the shadows. Only when that failed utterly he decided he needs to lead them front up.

But no he can't just materialize space ship out of nowhere. Seriously do you know anything how psychic powers works in 40k? That's what he can do. Just better than any other psyker but still you can see the kind of stuff he CAN do. That does not include creating technological devices out of thin air.

Look into negative mass. Now remember that we have 28,000 years to get it working.

Not proven to be workable. 40k works on premise that's not workable and indeed nothing in our reality being able to break lightspeed.

Might just as well ask for hyperdrive from star wars or warp engines from star trek.

Newsflash: In SF it's common to have set up premises on how universum works. That's essential when you have to employ stuff that's currently not possible or even not proven to be possible at all but still need something to make story work. Like faster than light.

Currently there's not one provenly working method to do that. So either you enforce that(making story thus quite different) or you come up with premise that allows it. This doesn't need to be same with all the SF but inside specific SF then that premise is law. You dont' go "negative mass ships" because _those don't work_ unless said setting has set up that as workable. 40k hasn't.

As for interstellar travel, we'd do it the Tau way.

Humans are big ones on speed and efficiency. You can bet that if there's risky but fast method we would use it. Maybe tau method as alternative for non speed essential ones but risk has never been removing fastest methods from humans tool box.

It's not a matter of "can" in the case of transporters. They kill any creature that is transported by them, even during a successful transport.

Are there transporters in our world? IF yes and they kill then you have point. IF not then that's another case of currently not even proven to be workable so author made premise that has them and that it doesn't kill.

How can I prove to you that Warhammer 40k is fiction, and that the backstory of the 40k universe is not expounded upon in enough detail to describe any current or past individual as the Emperor?

It's fiction yes. That's why warp drives works. But just because it's fiction doesn't mean it cannot use our world as base point. Star trek is also fiction(shock horror that!) yet the earth there is earth now.

And I'm not saying Lincoln WAS Emperor. I'm saying he COULD have been. GW hasn't gone into details which historical figures he WAS. Only that he was quite a many famous ones. Basically any historical leader, scientist, religious figure etc is candinate. Unsurprisingly this means Lincoln also classifies as candinate. Nothing in historical facts prevent him from having been Emperor. They don't prove it either(not surprising since we are talking about fiction) but that's not the point. Answer to "could Emperor have been Lincoln" is resounding YES!

tneva82 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:

Given the circumstances of Lincoln's death, he can hardly be said to have "faked it."

Not if you assume he hypnotized all witnesses.

Well if he's omnipotent, why didn't he just do his whole galaxy-conquering thing centuries ago by magicking advanced tech into existence?

He's not omnipotent for one thing. There's limits what he can do. For a long time it was his modus operandi to guide humans from the shadows. Only when that failed utterly he decided he needs to lead them front up.

But no he can't just materialize space ship out of nowhere. Seriously do you know anything how psychic powers works in 40k? That's what he can do. Just better than any other psyker but still you can see the kind of stuff he CAN do. That does not include creating technological devices out of thin air.

Conjuration and Summoning are both valid types of magic.

Look into negative mass. Now remember that we have 28,000 years to get it working.

Not proven to be workable. 40k works on premise that's not workable and indeed nothing in our reality being able to break lightspeed.

Might just as well ask for hyperdrive from star wars or warp engines from star trek.

Newsflash: In SF it's common to have set up premises on how universum works. That's essential when you have to employ stuff that's currently not possible or even not proven to be possible at all but still need something to make story work. Like faster than light.

Currently there's not one provenly working method to do that. So either you enforce that(making story thus quite different) or you come up with premise that allows it. This doesn't need to be same with all the SF but inside specific SF then that premise is law. You dont' go "negative mass ships" because _those don't work_ unless said setting has set up that as workable. 40k hasn't.

]

When WH40k lore was written, we didn't know about negative mass yet. It's an extremely recent theoretical concept in physics.

We're also discussing, specifically, why humans IRL would never do things the way the Imperium does.

As for interstellar travel, we'd do it the Tau way.

Humans are big ones on speed and efficiency. You can bet that if there's risky but fast method we would use it. Maybe tau method as alternative for non speed essential ones but risk has never been removing fastest methods from humans tool box.

Technology manufacturers are also big on not being sued for the deaths of their passengers.

It's not a matter of "can" in the case of transporters. They kill any creature that is transported by them, even during a successful transport.

Are there transporters in our world? IF yes and they kill then you have point. IF not then that's another case of currently not even proven to be workable so author made premise that has them and that it doesn't kill.

Actually, yes, there are transporters IRL.

We've successfully transported subatomic particles.

We also have cloaking devices that bend light around an object, rendering it invisible.

And CRISPR means our scientists are working on rewriting human DNA to create supersoldiers as we speak.

We also have technology that allows mind-to-mind communication.

How can I prove to you that Warhammer 40k is fiction, and that the backstory of the 40k universe is not expounded upon in enough detail to describe any current or past individual as the Emperor?

It's fiction yes. That's why warp drives works. But just because it's fiction doesn't mean it cannot use our world as base point. Star trek is also fiction(shock horror that!) yet the earth there is earth now.

And I'm not saying Lincoln WAS Emperor. I'm saying he COULD have been. GW hasn't gone into details which historical figures he WAS. Only that he was quite a many famous ones. Basically any historical leader, scientist, religious figure etc is candinate. Unsurprisingly this means Lincoln also classifies as candinate. Nothing in historical facts prevent him from having been Emperor. They don't prove it either(not surprising since we are talking about fiction) but that's not the point. Answer to "could Emperor have been Lincoln" is resounding YES!

Glad we agree that real life and 40k fiction are not the same, but why are you still trying to prove that Lincoln was the Emperor when you admit there's no evidence that Lincoln even existed in the 40k fiction?

 Pouncey wrote:

Conjuration and Summoning are both valid types of magic.

Which don't summon concrete computers out of thin air.

When WH40k lore was written, we didn't know about negative mass yet. It's an extremely recent theoretical concept in physics.

Even if it was known doesn't mean 40k would have to incorporate it. Newsflash: Negative mass isn't proven to work even now.

We're also discussing, specifically, why humans IRL would never do things the way the Imperium does.

Premise being same yes they would. We don't have any method to travel faster than light IRL so we don't. If 40k warp would exists we would use that. Saying we would use negative mass is stupid because negative mass ships don't exists either.

It's THEORY that's not yet PROVEN to be workable.

We've successfully transported subatomic particles.

That's far cry from star trek transporters.

Glad we agree that real life and 40k fiction are not the same, but why are you still trying to prove that Lincoln was the Emperor when you admit there's no evidence that Lincoln even existed in the 40k fiction?

Why not read what I'm saying? I'm saying it's possible he was in the 40k fiction.

Seriously stop responding to my posts if you can't be bothered to even read what I'm saying. It's mutual waste of time.

tneva82 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Conjuration and Summoning are both valid types of magic.

Which don't summon concrete computers out of thin air.

There's absolutely no reason Big E couldn't summon Eldar tech from another planet for humans to reverse engineer.

When WH40k lore was written, we didn't know about negative mass yet. It's an extremely recent theoretical concept in physics.

Even if it was known doesn't mean 40k would have to incorporate it. Newsflash: Negative mass isn't proven to work even now.

Should the choice be between the Tau and the Imperium method of interstellar travel, human passengers could never be convinced to take a weeks-long trip through hell where most of the crew and passengers die, over simply being frozen in cryogenics and having to wait a few years while asleep.

We're also discussing, specifically, why humans IRL would never do things the way the Imperium does.

Premise being same yes they would. We don't have any method to travel faster than light IRL so we don't. If 40k warp would exists we would use that. Saying we would use negative mass is stupid because negative mass ships don't exists either.

It's THEORY that's not yet PROVEN to be workable.

Remind me again which part of The Warp is proven to exist IRL?

None.

There's not even any theoretical concept there that might be developed for interstellar travel.

Negative mass is much more likely.

That's far cry from star trek transporters.

So what?

Why not read what I'm saying? I'm saying it's possible he was in the 40k fiction.

Seriously stop responding to my posts if you can't be bothered to even read what I'm saying. It's mutual waste of time.

The thing about fiction is that you don't assume things happened that weren't stated or implied to happen. You're making an impassioned argument that Lincoln existed in 40k fiction and was in fact the Emperor, and there's simply no reason to assume that that's the case.

 Zingraff wrote:
Anywho, Abraham Lincoln died, and the Emperor didn't. So they're not the same person.

He's immortal, isn't he? I'm assuming he switches bodies quite a lot. He's probably both Trump, Hillary, and Putin.

 Matthew wrote:

 Zingraff wrote:
Anywho, Abraham Lincoln died, and the Emperor didn't. So they're not the same person.

He's immortal, isn't he? I'm assuming he switches bodies quite a lot. He's probably both Trump, Hillary, and Putin.

If he can time travel he can be literally every human simultaneously.

 Pouncey wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Also, it's pretty certain that Terra is not Earth. Humanity IRL would never use Warp Travel or Teleporters.

In 40k fluff humans weren't using those in this year either. Here's surprising thought: In SF it's common that there's technology invented later that doesn't exists in current timeline.

You are basically saying earth in any SF isn't same earth as we are now eventhough authors are generally indicating otherwise(look at Star Trek, Babylon 5, Isaac Asimov's books etc etc etc)

No, I'm saying that traveling through Hell to get to another planet is an option humans IRL would never use when we can simply spend 28,000 years to develop ships with negative mass and thus simply travel faster than light without leaving the material plane, and given the "No-Cloning Theorem" no sane human being who was informed of the physics would ever allow themselves to be teleported with matter-energy transporter devices.

It's not a matter of the tech not existing, it's a matter of humans refusing to do things that way because sanity would prevail in the minds of our engineers.


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tneva82 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zingraff wrote:
Anywho, Abraham Lincoln died, and the Emperor didn't. So they're not the same person.

As said before irrelevant. Emperor was acting in disguise. You are HARDLY disguising your superpowers if you are immortal _and show it_.

By definition Emperor faked his own death multiple times over the course of history. Otherwise humans would have learned of his immortality before he came out into open with it during the unification wars before great crusade.

Given the circumstances of Lincoln's death, he can hardly be said to have "faked it."

Well obviously you don't tell the peons that you are shunting them through hell! Even in 40k they don't do that.

Wait, Lincoln faked it?

nareik wrote:
Well obviously you don't tell the peons that you are shunting them through hell! Even in 40k they don't do that.

They're probably gonna figure it out with all the demons running around the ship.

The Yelp reviews will be atrocious.

Big E can literally and was literally many different images and people thruout history.

That being said, I don't know of anything that indicates he was Abe Lincoln.....a bunch of other people sure, just not honest Abe.

Its stated that the Big was actually many historical figures and that he tried many test runs on how best to organize humanity before taking off the cloak and going full EMPRAHHHHH. This theory fits that.