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 Kanluwen wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

godardc wrote:What's the difference between an autogun, like the ones of the genestealer cult, and an SMG ?
MP5 are smg and I would put them in the "autogun" class.

An Autogun is more like a rifle type weapon - certainly too long to be classed as an SMG if you ask me. An SMG in modern terms is a carbine type weapon chambered to fire pistol cartridges. An Autogun is more like an assault rifle, more or less.

Autogun is a catch-all term for anything from a SMG like the Vector or UMP45 to a battle rifle like the Mark 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle to an "assault rifle" like the M4 or AK47.

The biggest difference is that 40k autoguns use caseless ammo and have ammo options that would (theoretically) far exceed real world personal firearms in power.



Modern, real world firearms would be considered "stubbers" in 40k.

Because in the grim darkness of the far future, the NFA branch of the Administratum is still a thing!

Actually if i had to take a guess, there are guys in the Imperial Guard who are issued lascarbines or 40k equivalent submachine guns. But you'll never see them because they are vehicle crews inside tanks and Valkyries or various logistical support troops miles behind the front line.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


The biggest difference is that 40k autoguns use caseless ammo and have ammo options that would (theoretically) far exceed real world personal firearms in power.

Modern, real world firearms would be considered "stubbers" in 40k.

I thought it was explicitly stated that autoguns and lasguns were equivalent to modern-day assault rifles. Can't find the quote, but that's really the only solid level of comparison to extrapolate the destructiveness of weapons in 40k (and the toughness of various species).

Yep, the calibers are probably absurd, but this is the same universe where they categorically state in a lot of old fluff that bolters fire caseless rounds...yet almost every piece of art ever made of a Space Marine contradicts this.

I wouldn't put too much weight on scattered fluff.

This may be a dumb point, but I'll raise it anyway:

Autoguns have a rapidfire weapon profile and fire ammunition that isn't a laser beam.

Is that similar?

Sicarian Infiltrators have Space Uzis as I like to call them. Assault 5, Strength 2, AP -, Shred.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Autogun is a catch-all term for anything from a SMG like the Vector or UMP45 to a battle rifle like the Mark 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle to an "assault rifle" like the M4 or AK47.

To quote Lexicanum - "Autogun is the general name for any rapid-firing automatic rifle."

"The Autogun is a projectile weapon similar in appearance and operation to battle rifles of the twentieth century"

Perhaps there is more to the term Autogun than what Lexicanum says; if there is, please cite it for me, as that'd be very useful!

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
The biggest difference is that 40k autoguns use caseless ammo and have ammo options that would (theoretically) far exceed real world personal firearms in power.Modern, real world firearms would be considered "stubbers" in 40k.

Pretty much this too

IandI wrote:
Actually if i had to take a guess, there are guys in the Imperial Guard who are issued lascarbines or 40k equivalent submachine guns. But you'll never see them because they are vehicle crews inside tanks and Valkyries or various logistical support troops miles behind the front line.

Catachan Jungle Fighters actually use Mk4 Lascarbines, and Lascarbines are a listed type of Lasgun. However, they're still far bigger than the type of weapon I was looking for.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I thought it was explicitly stated that autoguns and lasguns were equivalent to modern-day assault rifles. Can't find the quote, but that's really the only solid level of comparison to extrapolate the destructiveness of weapons in 40k (and the toughness of various species).

See above to my Lexicanum quote - they're the equivalent to them, but not identical in function

 Traditio wrote:
This may be a dumb point, but I'll raise it anyway:

Autoguns have a rapidfire weapon profile and fire ammunition that isn't a laser beam.

Is that similar?

40k lore has never really translated into rules particularly well, but for the most part, Lasguns and Autoguns have range, fire rate and stopping power similar enough to each other to be classed together; the major differences between them are recoil, reliability and the power settings available to a Lasgun, all of which are not covered in 40k rules outside of Necromunda.

 ultimentra wrote:
Sicarian Infiltrators have Space Uzis as I like to call them. Assault 5, Strength 2, AP -, Shred.

See on the last page:

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
There's the stub carbine that the mechanicus uses. Carbines are pretty close to submachine guns depending on the model.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Stubcarbine

And I guess the reason we don't see them often is because the Mechanicum has them and they don't like to share.

Sorry, I should have disclosed that I am aware of the Stubcarbine that Skitarii Sicarians use; what I'm looking for is a reason or evidence to justify the existence of an SMG designed for human use in 40k that is fairly ubiquitos, much like an Autogun.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I would like to know how effective a 9mm submachine gun is against an ork now...

In the GrimDark, it's likely combatants don't adhere to the Geneva conventions. Machine pistols would have hollow points. Bolt rounds explode when they penetrate the target. Tyranids infect and liquefy targets. Sisters flame and melt their enemy's.

Subguns feature in Guant's Ghosts novel Guns of Tanith. IIRC, they state they jam quite a bit with the ammo, plus they are heavier than lasguns. Trade-off was the ammo type will kill loxatl, whereas they soak up las fire. Also, most las rifles can be fitted with short barrels and folding stocks, giving them the size of a subgun.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


The biggest difference is that 40k autoguns use caseless ammo and have ammo options that would (theoretically) far exceed real world personal firearms in power.

Modern, real world firearms would be considered "stubbers" in 40k.

I thought it was explicitly stated that autoguns and lasguns were equivalent to modern-day assault rifles. Can't find the quote, but that's really the only solid level of comparison to extrapolate the destructiveness of weapons in 40k (and the toughness of various species).

Autoguns are comparable to modern, real life military firearms (there are similarities). But there are differences:



-Most commonly issued patterns of military autoguns are made out of sci-fi plasteel, making them incredibly durable (Plasteel is the material used in the production of tank armor and personal armor).

-Caseless ammo (only one real world infantry weapon chambered in caseless ammunition ever entered service, and it wasn't around long: The HK G11)

- Calibers vary. But the military issue autoguns, like 20th Century battle rifles (as opposed to assault rifles with their intermediate cartridges), tend toward larger calibers. The M40 Armageddon Pattern (known for it's no-frills simplicity and excellent reliability) is said to be a large caliber weapon. And the Agripinaa Pattern Type II and III are chambered for a caseless 8.25 mm Long cartridge known for generating heavy recoil.

-Various exotic and specialized ammunition. Autoguns can use AP and HE ammo that, for all intents and purposes, turns the autogun into a miniature bolter (to name an example). Fluff-wise, direct hits by standard autogun ammo could theoretically defeat standard issue Imperial Guard flak armor, which would be considered to be very good by modern, real world standards (due to the sci-fi materials used. Real world flak vests, as opposed to light ballistic body armor, generally cannot stop bullets). On the other hand, stubber rounds cannot (other than the heavy stubber, which is the equivalent of a 12.7mm HMG), and flak armor offers some ablative protection from lasgun hits. The penetrating power of the autogun isn't reflected on the tabletop because of the need for abstraction.


To sum it all up, autoguns are comparable and similar in operation to M2 and early M3 select-fire assault rifles and battle rifles. But they're more advanced in terms of materials and available ammunition types.

Just a quick question, where does the caseless ammo thing come from? I thought autoguns were as many and varied as the planets that produce them...

Foxhound25 wrote:Subguns feature in Guant's Ghosts novel Guns of Tanith. IIRC, they state they jam quite a bit with the ammo, plus they are heavier than lasguns. Trade-off was the ammo type will kill loxatl, whereas they soak up las fire. Also, most las rifles can be fitted with short barrels and folding stocks, giving them the size of a subgun.

This is perfect - I must go looking for this!

Still, if a Lascarbine with a folding stock (aka. the Mk4) is about the same size, then I'm still in the same predicament.

Ynneadwraith wrote:Just a quick question, where does the caseless ammo thing come from? I thought autoguns were as many and varied as the planets that produce them...

It's always been like that for Autoguns - much like how a Lasgun is defined across the galaxy by being a small arms laser weapon, the Autogun is defined as being a solid projectile small arm that fires caseless ammunition. There are very few patterns that don't feature caseless ammo, since that would be damaging the primary advantage the Autogun has over the Lasgun - the ease of securing and manufacturing generic ammunition for it.

The weird thing I've always noted about Autoguns is how they have a breech for ejecting spent cartridges, even though they don't need them (unless there's something I don't know about firearms needing this even in the absence of cartridge cases).

Ah gotcha. Odd about the breech, but that is fairly easily put down to making a model look better at the expense of realism.

Would be good if someone knew of a potential justification to smooth over suspension of disbelief though

In the event of a jam or misfeed you still need an opening at the breech to clear the issue and return the weapon to operating condition.

Also, when unloading most weapons, inspecting the breech is a part of confirming the weapon is now safe.

 General Annoyance wrote:

Foxhound25 wrote:Subguns feature in Guant's Ghosts novel Guns of Tanith. IIRC, they state they jam quite a bit with the ammo, plus they are heavier than lasguns. Trade-off was the ammo type will kill loxatl, whereas they soak up las fire. Also, most las rifles can be fitted with short barrels and folding stocks, giving them the size of a subgun.

This is perfect - I must go looking for this!

Still, if a Lascarbine with a folding stock (aka. the Mk4) is about the same size, then I'm still in the same predicament.

What is your predicament, exactly?

40k does have SMGs. There're called autopistols. "Auto" as in automatic, as in machine-pistol, as in SMG. A carbine is a short-length rifle calibre weapon. An SMG is a pistol calibre weapon. The varieties can be as expansive as the IoM itself, as can their sizes. Larger SMGs can be the size of small carbines, or, looking at it another way, very small carbines can be the size of large SMGs.

For instance, the AKS-74U often appears in media (such as games) under the "submachine gun" category, due to it's small size. It is in fact a compact assault rifle.

For those saying Bolters are basically SMGs... lol, no. Boltguns/Boltrifles/Bolters are more like .50 cal* automatic fire RPGs. For those saying Lascarbines are basically SMGs... again, no. Lascarbines are exactly that; carbine length versions of a Lasrifle.



*Edit: Bolters are actually .75 cal, so ever more ridiculous than .50 (and even further from being SMGs)

Gotcha disbelief suspended

Jefffar wrote:In the event of a jam or misfeed you still need an opening at the breech to clear the issue and return the weapon to operating condition.

Also, when unloading most weapons, inspecting the breech is a part of confirming the weapon is now safe.

Thanks for explaining that

Anfauglir wrote:What is your predicament, exactly?

I'm trying to justify the use of the weapons I showed on the last page in a future project - I am aware that Autopistols practically fill the niche of the SMG, but I wondered if a slightly larger weapon that merits use with both hands could exist, outside of the Voss Pattern Autopistol.

The universe of 40k is so vast and varied that there's bound to be some people somewhere who use SMG-type weapons. On the tabletop they'd either be represented with autopistol or autogun rules (or shotgun really, if you want a shorter ranged assault 2 weapon), but in the fluff you can do whatever you like

 General Annoyance wrote:
I'm trying to justify the use of the weapons I showed on the last page in a future project - I am aware that Autopistols practically fill the niche of the SMG, but I wondered if a slightly larger weapon that merits use with both hands could exist, outside of the Voss Pattern Autopistol.

People already mentioned cramped spaces like underhive corridors, and one might find use for an SMG-equivalent in shipboard situations. There's a lot of situations where something else than a lasgun or bolter would be preferred but sadly lasguns and bolters is all we've got.

So the most important part of your plan is (IMO) making up why someone has bothered with a larger SMG-type gun. It might just be their local Autopistol variant - say no commoner is allowed a pistol-sized gun but one with a stock and front handle is perfectly fine. You still have a gun to use against wildlife but you can't easily smuggle it into the office when the boss pisses you off with extra work.

 Anfauglir wrote:

For those saying Bolters are basically SMGs... lol, no. Boltguns/Boltrifles/Bolters are more like .50 cal automatic fire RPGs. For those saying Lascarbines are basically SMGs... again, no. Lascarbines are exactly that; carbine length versions of a Lasrifle.

Actually, at one time AAI and DARPA teamed up to develop a fully automatic 18mm rocket grenade launcher they officially referred to as a submachine gun. So yes, the real world equivalent to the Bolter is a submachine gun.

 General Annoyance wrote:
I'm trying to justify the use of the weapons I showed on the last page in a future project - I am aware that Autopistols practically fill the niche of the SMG, but I wondered if a slightly larger weapon that merits use with both hands could exist, outside of the Voss Pattern Autopistol.

Absolutely justifiable. The variety and model of autopistols found across the galaxy are limitless. Like the picture of the Voss pattern, with the compensator and extended stock you would shoulder and ADS with it like a rifle or carbine. Or you could hip-fire it, of course. Full size SMGs like the IMI Uzi and H&K MP5 are two-handed weapons. Only small/subcompact SMGs can really effectively be handled and fired one-handed. Unless you're the Terminator, that is!

Jefffar wrote:
Actually, at one time AAI and DARPA teamed up to develop a fully automatic 18mm rocket grenade launcher they officially referred to as a submachine gun. So yes, the real world equivalent to the Bolter is a submachine gun.

Citation? Also, they can "officailly refer" to any prototype project by whatever name they want. An actual licenced weapon manufactured and sold market-wide is different. It wouldn't be allowed to be classed as an SMG in the same sense that automatic pistol-caliber weapons are, which is what TC is referring to. So any poster who says, "sure SMGs exist in 40K TC, they're Bolters" are incorrect.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

Foxhound25 wrote:Subguns feature in Guant's Ghosts novel Guns of Tanith. IIRC, they state they jam quite a bit with the ammo, plus they are heavier than lasguns. Trade-off was the ammo type will kill loxatl, whereas they soak up las fire. Also, most las rifles can be fitted with short barrels and folding stocks, giving them the size of a subgun.

This is perfect - I must go looking for this!

Still, if a Lascarbine with a folding stock (aka. the Mk4) is about the same size, then I'm still in the same predicament.

What is your predicament, exactly?

40k does have SMGs. There're called autopistols. "Auto" as in automatic, as in machine-pistol, as in SMG. A carbine is a short-length rifle calibre weapon. An SMG is a pistol calibre weapon. The varieties can be as expansive as the IoM itself, as can their sizes. Larger SMGs can be the size of small carbines, or, looking at it another way, very small carbines can be the size of large SMGs.

For instance, the AKS-74U often appears in media (such as games) under the "submachine gun" category, due to it's small size. It is in fact a compact assault rifle.

For those saying Bolters are basically SMGs... lol, no. Boltguns/Boltrifles/Bolters are more like .50 cal* automatic fire RPGs. For those saying Lascarbines are basically SMGs... again, no. Lascarbines are exactly that; carbine length versions of a Lasrifle.



*Edit: Bolters are actually .75 cal, so ever more ridiculous than .50 (and even further from being SMGs)

The closest modern "infantry" weapon would be a anti materal weapon or a mk19 grenade launcher.

Both are no way sub anything.

 jhe90 wrote:
The closest modern "infantry" weapon would be a anti materal weapon or a mk19 grenade launcher.

Both are no way sub anything.

Is this a reply to something specific, or my whole post? I'm not clear on what you're referring to.

 Anfauglir wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Actually, at one time AAI and DARPA teamed up to develop a fully automatic 18mm rocket grenade launcher they officially referred to as a submachine gun. So yes, the real world equivalent to the Bolter is a submachine gun.

Citation? Also, they can "officailly refer" to any prototype project by whatever name they want. An actual licenced weapon manufactured and sold market-wide is different. It wouldn't be allowed to be classed as an SMG in the same sense that automatic pistol-caliber weapons are, which is what TC is referring to. So any poster who says, "sure SMGs exist in 40K TC, they're Bolters" are incorrect.

I first read about it in Future Weapons by Kevin Dockery. A great book on small arms development over the course of the previous century and what the cutting edge was about 2005. Highly american centric.

The weapon had 2 ammunition types, an 18mm grenade and a flechette round.

 General Annoyance wrote:

Jefffar wrote:In the event of a jam or misfeed you still need an opening at the breech to clear the issue and return the weapon to operating condition.

Also, when unloading most weapons, inspecting the breech is a part of confirming the weapon is now safe.

Thanks for explaining that

Anfauglir wrote:What is your predicament, exactly?

I'm trying to justify the use of the weapons I showed on the last page in a future project - I am aware that Autopistols practically fill the niche of the SMG, but I wondered if a slightly larger weapon that merits use with both hands could exist, outside of the Voss Pattern Autopistol.

There is the Hax-Orthlack Creed-9 Autogun, which is a local Calixis Sector knock-off of a SMG-type weapon used by the Imperial Navy. It was issued to Naval Armsmen for the kind of CQB common in boarding actions. It's not much larger than an autopistol. It's lightweight, has a telescoping stock, and can take optional attachments. It's also easy to customize. You can find them with powered red-dot reflex sights, expanded magazine wells for faster mag changes, and examples with the optional select fire feature. It's supposedly popular with Chartist Captains operating in the sector and their crews, local planetary Enforcers, and private security/bodyguards/household troops. Unfortunately, I couldn't ever find an image of the weapon.

in Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader (1988), Rick Priestley et al wrote:(page 70)
Basic Weapons The vast majority of weapons carried by the military and civilians are hand-held, carbine-sized guns ...

Auto-gun An auto-gun is comparable to a twentieth century automatic rifle in appearance and operation - although it uses caseless, small-calibre ammunition and has a rate of fire far outweighing that ancient weapon.

(page 75)
Auto-pistol Auto-pistols are rapid-firing automatic pistols similar to twentieth century sub-machine guns, but more compact.

in the Warhammer 40,000 Battle Manual (1992), Rick Priestley wrote:(page 37)
AUTOPISTOL The auto-pistol is a rapid-firing automatic pistol which fires short busrts of caseless ammunition. It is effectively a pistol version of the larger and more powerful autogun.

(page 44]
AUTOGUN The auto-gun is comparable to a twentieth century automatic rifle both in appearance and operation, although the introduction of caseless ammunition and high-tech components has increased the rate of fire and reliability. The autogun fires a burst of high-velocity, caseless shot made from plastics, ceramic or metal. Its strong point is its long effective range

The 2nd edition Wargear book used essentially the same text (with additional wording about them being used by Gretchin).

in Necromunda (1995), Rick Priestely et al wrote:(page 44)
Autopistol The autopistol is a rapid firing automatic pistol,
effectively a smaller and handier version of the larger autogun. Auto weapons are easy to manufacture and simple to use, and are amongst the most commonly
employed weapons in the Underhive. Most weapons are made in the factories of the hive city and traded down through the hive. Crude but effective versions are made in the Underhive workshops themselves. Ammunition, spares and repair facilities are relatively easy to find throughout the Underhive, and traders always have guns and ammunition for sale. Because of its high rate of fire, the autopistol is astonishingly accurate at the short ranges favoured by some gang fighters.

[Autogun] The autogun is a rapid firing automatic weapon. Auto weapons are easy to manufacture and simple to use, and are amongst the most commonly employed
weapons in the Underhive. Autoguns are made in the factories of the hive city and traded down through the hive. Crude but effective versions are made in the Underhive workshops themselves. Ammunition, spares and repair facilities are relatively easy to find throughout the Underhive, and traders always have guns and ammunition for sale.

 KiloFiX wrote:

The image on the right here is from page 132 of Dark Heresy 1st edition (Black Industries, 1998)

in Dark Heresy 2nd edition (2014), Andrew Fischer et al wrote:(page 155)
Autogun
While not as commonplace as lasguns in military formations, many local forces rely on these sturdy and inexpensive weapons to defend their home world from threats within or without. They use common, low-calibre shells in standardised clips, and can be set to fire in single, semi-automatic, or full-automatic modes making them as versatile as they are simple to construct and supply.
Autopistol
Rapid firing and compact, many veteran Guardsmen carry an autopistol to supplement their regulation lasgun or other, less reliable weapons. They are also popular in gang hierarchies, and have settled many underhive leadership disputes in a hail of shells.

So, right at the outset, autopistols were explicitly described as representing SMGs, although that's become less obvious over the years.

As for bolters, yes, you can describe them as automatic RPGs, but they're clearly not used in that role (Space Marines use missile launchers and lascannon for that sort of thing); they're used in the same role as assault rifles - although very big, powerful and noisy ones.

I think of a Bolter as a three-way love-child between a modern firearm, a 1960's prototype gyrojet, and a modern Mk. 19. Although, the .75 caliber "bolt" is way smaller than the 40 x 53mm grenade of the Mk 19 (.75 caliber is around 19mm)